The Nehor Posted June 9, 2016 Posted June 9, 2016 26 minutes ago, Johnnie Cake said: Just depends on who's asking....with the most recent 2 baptism invites...I just changed the subject with one and on the other I just smiled and walked away...knowing that in both situations it was easier to just bite my tongue then to get into it with believers. However when my wives SP asked, I fired both barrels Which one was I? 😗 1
Tacenda Posted June 9, 2016 Posted June 9, 2016 http://thebrainypoetcorner.blogspot.com/2016/06/the-bishop.html?m=1 Johnnie, I thought you might like this, I don't know if you're gay or not, but this guy is and he had a long talk with his bishop about how he felt about the church. Not unlike many stories out there and about not being able to let go of it easily, or not leaving it alone. This is a good bishop, I believe most are similar.
MiserereNobis Posted June 9, 2016 Posted June 9, 2016 Hey all, just to clarify, I wasn't using Tolkien as an example that the Book of Mormon is or could be false. I was just responding to the post that wanted to know if there is a book with a huge scope that was basically consistent. My belief in Catholicism (and hence not in Mormonism) doesn't have anything to do about who wrote the Book of Mormon. I have no horse in that particular race. I just wanted to be clear because I didn't want you all to think I was attacking the complexity of the Book of Mormon. And Nehor, you've always been fun to read. Now that I know that you're a Tolkien nerd, I love you all the more. You all should watch this Stephen Colbert clip: Finally, Stephen's Tolkien Geekdom Pays Off
omni Posted June 10, 2016 Posted June 10, 2016 3 hours ago, bdouglas said: A challenge to the most educated, smartest ex-Mormon or NeverMo on this site . . . . You have, not 90 days, but a whole year. Write something comparable, not to entire BOM, but to just one chapter, 1 Nephi 1. Or even the first four verses of the first chapter of 1 Nephi. Or take the smallest least significant of any of the revelations in the D & C, and write one like it. You must not only get the language right but you have to get the "voice" right. (That voice! Who is it? Read what Bushman says about this voice is RSR.) Or write me a B of A, or even a few verses of the B of A. Ok, you say you can't do it. You are not smart enough. Is there anyone alive today who is smart enough? Or is there anyone in the past, at the time of JS, who was not only smart enough, he would also have had to be the greatest literary genius of all time. P.S. - It is probably evident to anybody reading my posts that I am at loose ends for a few days with not much to do. Sorry. Okay, now you're just trolling us. You can't really be serious with all of this?
bdouglas Posted June 10, 2016 Posted June 10, 2016 (edited) 50 minutes ago, omni said: Okay, now you're just trolling us. You can't really be serious with all of this? I was making a point, that's all. A long time ago I read a short play Hugh Nibley had written. It was a "readers play", not meant to be staged. It's in one of his books. There are two characters, anti-Mormons. These two characters are sifting through some of the "dirt" on Joseph Smith — all while ignoring his marvelous works, the corpus of scripture he produced. In other words these two dim-witted characters are focused on externals only. It would be like a biographer looked at Isaac Newton and wrote about his apparent misogyny and parsimoniousness but ignored his great scientific discoveries. Well these two anti-Mormons in Nibley's short play, sifting through transcripts from trials for money-digging and other such material, completely focus on externals only and miss the elephant in the room. Anyway, I read this short play, and because I'm a scriptwriter myself, I thought, "If Nibley had wanted, he could've been a good, maybe even a great playwright." And to take this further, if ever there'd been someone in the church who could've written, or duplicated something like one of the revelations in the D & C or a chapter from the Book Of Mormon, it would've been Nibley. But if anybody had suggested to him that he try such a thing . . . well, he would've found the suggestion absurd. He couldn't have done it, not by a long shot. He wouldn't have even been able to make a start. He stood in awe of Joseph Smith. In one of the prefaces to one of his essays, he talks about how, only months after publishing the Book Of Mormon, Joseph Smith produced the Book Of Moses — something completely different, from an entirely different world. To Joseph Smith it almost seems like it was as easy as getting up and having breakfast, but to the rest of us, Nibley included, it is a thing of awe that he could do such a thing. And so my point was — People who say, "Sidney Rigdon and Oliver Cowdery wrote the Book Of Mormon." Or, "Joseph wrote it. It's an example of automatic writing," when all of the other examples out there of automatic writing are garbage and the kind of stuff no intelligent person could ever really take seriously. Or, "Joseph was a religious genius and the Book Of Mormon is merely a product of this genuis." To me it seems that the people who say these kinds of things really do not have an accurate idea of the complexity and depth of the Book Of Mormon. P.S. - The people who say this last thing (that he was merely a religious genius, no big deal) to me are the most interesting. I have come across this a lot. According to this theory Joseph Smith was a religious genuis who tossed off the Book Of Mormon, after inventing the story of the gold plates (which really never existed in the first place, either that or he made some out of tin), then he somehow cons the Three and Eight Witnesses; and so on and so on. In other words this "religious genius" was also an extremely cunning con man and psychopath who succeeded on foisting this gigantic fraud, not only on uneducated frontier rubes but people who were very close to him like the commonsensical Emma, not to mention people like the extremely canny and intelligent Brigham Young (who had been born with a very finely tuned bullshit detector). So it seems to me what Pres. Hinckley said is true. The founding narrative of the church is either true . . . or it is the greatest con ever perpetrated by man and there is no punishment which would fit such a crime. There really is no middle ground — none at least to stand on. (A long answer to a short question.) Edited June 10, 2016 by bdouglas 2
omni Posted June 10, 2016 Posted June 10, 2016 2 hours ago, Johnnie Cake said: I loved/love my mission experience...yet still had those same nightmares...weird huh. What's up with that. I've spoken with many former missionaries who have had similar experiences with mission themed nightmares Same here, except I was always called on a second mission that I really didn't want to go on, but felt I couldn't say no to.
Jeanne Posted June 10, 2016 Posted June 10, 2016 2 hours ago, Tacenda said: http://thebrainypoetcorner.blogspot.com/2016/06/the-bishop.html?m=1 Johnnie, I thought you might like this, I don't know if you're gay or not, but this guy is and he had a long talk with his bishop about how he felt about the church. Not unlike many stories out there and about not being able to let go of it easily, or not leaving it alone. This is a good bishop, I believe most are similar. Thanks for that link..I am just full of tears tonight. We need this kind of understanding and fearless hope. This Bishop is gold. 1
Robert F. Smith Posted June 10, 2016 Posted June 10, 2016 12 hours ago, Johnnie Cake said: Believers often throw this over used cliché out at those who leave the church as an optimal attack and yet seem to forget that this tired trope can be applied both ways. Trust me when I say, I would love nothing more than to put Mormonism in my rear view mirror and never look back...but its tentacles run deep into the very fabric of virtually all aspects of my life. Family, Neighborhood, Community, Employment, Societal, Government etc. How exactly is someone who lives in Utah supposed to be able to leave the church and leave it alone, when the church continues to dominate virtually all aspects of ones life in so many ways? I kindly ask this audacious body of Mormon Knowledge...how exactly is one supposed to be able to leave the church and be able to leave it alone in light of the reality that the church itself refuses to or can't/won't leave those who leave alone? Well, you might find something else which is of interest to you. A hobby maybe, or another religion. Judaism is a good one, and there are a couple of synagogues in SLC. Or you might go to the Cathedral of the Madeleine in SLC and begin catechism class. There are plenty of non-LDS activities in which to engage. Habitat for Humanity always needs volunteers. Once you find something to truly engage you, the paranoia will rapidly diminish. 3
Robert F. Smith Posted June 10, 2016 Posted June 10, 2016 4 hours ago, The Nehor said: Which one was I? 😗 Which one of his wives?
Johnnie Cake Posted June 10, 2016 Author Posted June 10, 2016 6 hours ago, Tacenda said: http://thebrainypoetcorner.blogspot.com/2016/06/the-bishop.html?m=1 Johnnie, I thought you might like this, I don't know if you're gay or not, but this guy is and he had a long talk with his bishop about how he felt about the church. Not unlike many stories out there and about not being able to let go of it easily, or not leaving it alone. This is a good bishop, I believe most are similar. Nothing wrong with being gay...but pretty sure I'm hetro...
Robert F. Smith Posted June 10, 2016 Posted June 10, 2016 The Chabad synagogue in SLC will begin the celebration of Shavuot (Feast of Weeks) on this Saturday evening at 8pm, and continue the next morning, Sunday at 9:30am. Then at 11am they will have an ice cream party. This will take place at 1760 South 1100 East in SLC. Shavuot commemorates the receiving of the Ten Commandments at Sinai. Should be fun and get your mind off other things.. 1
Gray Posted June 10, 2016 Posted June 10, 2016 (edited) 16 hours ago, jkwilliams said: In my experience, there is a direct relationship between the amount of time/effort/devotion one put into his or her religion and the inability to "leave it alone." It makes sense to me that those who leave religions that demand a lot--such as the LDS church and the Jehovah's Witnesses, for example--tend to spend more time dissecting their experience and former beliefs. Oh yes. Mormonism and JWism (for lack of a better term) can and do take over people's entire lives. There are some people in my ward who can't have a discussion that is not centered around the church. I imagine if they ever lose their faith they will become just as obsessive in the other direction. Edited June 10, 2016 by Gray 1
Guest Posted June 10, 2016 Posted June 10, 2016 On June 9, 2016 at 11:27 AM, Johnnie Cake said: Believers often throw this over used cliché out at those who leave the church as an optimal attack and yet seem to forget that this tired trope can be applied both ways. Trust me when I say, I would love nothing more than to put Mormonism in my rear view mirror and never look back...but its tentacles run deep into the very fabric of virtually all aspects of my life. Family, Neighborhood, Community, Employment, Societal, Government etc. How exactly is someone who lives in Utah supposed to be able to leave the church and leave it alone, when the church continues to dominate virtually all aspects of ones life in so many ways? I kindly ask this audacious body of Mormon Knowledge...how exactly is one supposed to be able to leave the church and be able to leave it alone in light of the reality that the church itself refuses to or can't/won't leave those who leave alone? If this is not true of most, then take it up with (as you stated) "family, neighborhood, community, employment, societal, Goverment, etc." You can do that through, letters, telling you neighbors to never know on you door, by telling your employers that they are not allowed to discriminate on the basis of non-religion in your case, or writing to your elected representatives. But, you come to the Internet instead, and we love having you here, but you can put this part of Mormonism in your rear view mirror. I assure you if you wish we can and will leave you alone. You can put us on ignore. As for Utah, much that makes it a great place to live and work is due to the values of the Church. But ever with Utah, if you feel it is the problem, move to Georgia, we would love to have you and only about 150,000 Mormons in the entire State. Georgia loves, hard working, honest people and with 9 out of every 10 people being fundamental Baptist who don't care much for Mormons you can find many who dispise us. But, I don't think you dislike Mormons or Mormonism to the point that you would want to put them in your rear view mirror, I think there is much you love about "My Faith and My People". So just be honest and stay in Utah and stay here on this site, and admit that you don't have the disgust for it all as you suggest.
UtahTexan Posted June 10, 2016 Posted June 10, 2016 On 6/9/2016 at 9:27 AM, Johnnie Cake said: Believers often throw this over used cliché out at those who leave the church as an optimal attack and yet seem to forget that this tired trope can be applied both ways. Trust me when I say, I would love nothing more than to put Mormonism in my rear view mirror and never look back...but its tentacles run deep into the very fabric of virtually all aspects of my life. Family, Neighborhood, Community, Employment, Societal, Government etc. How exactly is someone who lives in Utah supposed to be able to leave the church and leave it alone, when the church continues to dominate virtually all aspects of ones life in so many ways? I kindly ask this audacious body of Mormon Knowledge...how exactly is one supposed to be able to leave the church and be able to leave it alone in light of the reality that the church itself refuses to or can't/won't leave those who leave alone? it takes strength and strength of character. If a person truly wants to leave...they leave.
UtahTexan Posted June 10, 2016 Posted June 10, 2016 On 6/9/2016 at 10:42 AM, Johnnie Cake said: I'm no longer a member of the church and have set what I would consider amenable boundaries that both the church and I can live within and yet even this past week was asked yet again when I'm going to get rebaptised. So yeah, in my real life, I get no respect of my boundaries. In my real life I leave them alone and yet I am repeatedly having to restate those bountaries...so yeah maybe I'm a bit sensitive today. I'm more than willing to allow the church to do its thing...but I can't seem to escape the seemingly lack of mutual respect back. I'm sorry that you find my posts nonsense...please feel free to "Leave Them Alone" In the future... Maybe I am just a stronger person...but if someone talks to me that says stuff I dislike, I stop talking to them. Need me to show you how?
Jeanne Posted June 10, 2016 Posted June 10, 2016 2 minutes ago, CountryBoy said: Maybe I am just a stronger person...but if someone talks to me that says stuff I dislike, I stop talking to them. Need me to show you how? You can't stop talking to family. That definitely doesn't work.
UtahTexan Posted June 10, 2016 Posted June 10, 2016 Just now, Jeanne said: You can't stop talking to family. That definitely doesn't work. Did for me. I told them to lay off, or they were off my talking-to-list. They quit talking about that topic around me
jkwilliams Posted June 11, 2016 Posted June 11, 2016 1 hour ago, CountryBoy said: Did for me. I told them to lay off, or they were off my talking-to-list. They quit talking about that topic around me I can imagine the response of my family if I told them they weren't allowed to talk about the church around me. Heck, I think a lot of posters would call that arrogant and probably hateful. I don't do ultimatums with my family. I don't enjoy having the church shoved down my throat sometimes, but I know it's not negotiable and not worth screwing up my relationships. 3
UtahTexan Posted June 11, 2016 Posted June 11, 2016 20 minutes ago, jkwilliams said: I can imagine the response of my family if I told them they weren't allowed to talk about the church around me. Heck, I think a lot of posters would call that arrogant and probably hateful. I don't do ultimatums with my family. I don't enjoy having the church shoved down my throat sometimes, but I know it's not negotiable and not worth screwing up my relationships. Yeah...it takes strength. I know. I did it. But...not everyone is strong enough....those that aren't complain on discussion boards
jkwilliams Posted June 11, 2016 Posted June 11, 2016 Just now, CountryBoy said: Yeah...it takes strength. I know. I did it. But...not everyone is strong enough....those that aren't complain on discussion boards I've done it with some people, but it would be stupid and arrogant to do that with my family. I couldn't care less that you think I'm not strong enough. Demanding things of your family is a sign of weakness, not strength. 2
UtahTexan Posted June 11, 2016 Posted June 11, 2016 Just now, jkwilliams said: I've done it with some people, but it would be stupid and arrogant to do that with my family. I couldn't care less that you think I'm not strong enough. Demanding things of your family is a sign of weakness, not strength. Nope. If a family will not respect your feelings, then it is on them, not you. If asking does not work, then demanding is what it takes. But...again...excuses are easy...strength is not. But...complaining here works a lot better, I guess.
jkwilliams Posted June 11, 2016 Posted June 11, 2016 1 minute ago, CountryBoy said: Nope. If a family will not respect your feelings, then it is on them, not you. If asking does not work, then demanding is what it takes. But...again...excuses are easy...strength is not. But...complaining here works a lot better, I guess. I'm not complaining. I'm saying I understand that such demands would be unreasonable. Yeah, sometimes it gets out of hand, and I stop the conversation, but most of the time it isn't a big deal. Frankly, only an *** would demand that his family never speak of their most cherished beliefs. I'd rather be weak than an ***. 1
UtahTexan Posted June 11, 2016 Posted June 11, 2016 (edited) 3 minutes ago, jkwilliams said: I'm not complaining. I'm saying I understand that such demands would be unreasonable. Yeah, sometimes it gets out of hand, and I stop the conversation, but most of the time it isn't a big deal. Frankly, only an *** would demand that his family never speak of their most cherished beliefs. I'd rather be weak than an ***. I never cared that they discussed their beliefs...I did not want them trying to re-convert me. After I made my point with them, they stopped. But...I understand your justification and excuses....so, you got your wish and if you really feel that way, then stop complaining. Edited June 11, 2016 by CountryBoy
jkwilliams Posted June 11, 2016 Posted June 11, 2016 Just now, CountryBoy said: I never cared that they discussed their beliefs...I did not want them trying to re-convert me. After I made my point with them, they stopped. But...I understand your justification and excuses....so, you got your wish My family doesn't try to reconvert me. That isn't what I was talking about.
Robert F. Smith Posted June 11, 2016 Posted June 11, 2016 1 hour ago, jkwilliams said: I can imagine the response of my family if I told them they weren't allowed to talk about the church around me. Heck, I think a lot of posters would call that arrogant and probably hateful. I don't do ultimatums with my family. I don't enjoy having the church shoved down my throat sometimes, but I know it's not negotiable and not worth screwing up my relationships. I feel very sorry for people who do not have other interests in life than the LDS faith, or who feel that they must constantly hector some perceived miscreant for zealously adhering to or abandoning the faith. That is just bad manners at best, and insensitive at worst.
Recommended Posts