Robert F. Smith Posted June 15, 2016 Posted June 15, 2016 (edited) 4 hours ago, snowflake said: I am not holding the Holy Spirit in contempt and do not denigrate it. I am just asking why people get different answers from it? Is Warren Jeffs a prophet? If not how do you know, what is your criteria for testing. I hold the bible up as God's word, not as an idol, but as God breathed truth. Sounds like Bibliolatry to me, unless you also hold that Bible as only to be interpreted by the Holy Spirit. Funny how you never mention the Holy Spirit except when condemning it or someone else's view of it. If it were central to you, you would be talking about it in that fashion, not in the way you currently do. But that is in line with the Protestant contempt for the Holy Spirit and their strong suspicion that the power of the Holy Spirit can only mislead. Likely the main reason for the Great Apostasy. We are commanded by the NT (as I have cited it for you) to interpret all Scripture by the same source which gave it -- the Holy Spirit. Are you not humble enough to allow that still small voice to speak to your heart? ETA: The criterion for testing (which is what I have been harping on) is the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit only gives one set of answers to all alike on such crucial issues, while providing individual answers on personal matters (such as whether your friend Tim would be a good marriage partner). Anyone living in King Zedekiah's Jerusalem in 597 BC could have known by the power of the Holy Spirit of God that Jeremiah and Lehi were authentic prophets. Edited June 15, 2016 by Robert F. Smith 3
saemo Posted June 15, 2016 Posted June 15, 2016 8 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said: Good points, sometimes. I have written an entire book on the subject, and am getting ready to publish it. Mainstream Christians just don't get it. Moreover, the Gospels have Jesus quoting from each of the five books of Moses and attributing those words to Moses. Does that mean that Jesus thought that Moses had said those exact words, or that the Greek NT has the actual words spoken in those instances by Jesus and Moses? Since Jesus was likely quoting in Hebrew, what authority do we give to the mostly LXX Greek version of Moses' words -- quite apart from the question of the editing and redaction of the Pentateuch according to the Documentary Hypothesis, as a set of separate documents which have been put together with the jointures still visible., and apart from the fact that one of those books speaks about Moses in the third person. If Jesus even said the words attributed to him, did he employ the Hebrew Canon as normative, and refer to Moses simply in a perfunctory and formal way, with no intention to delineating his views on Higher Criticism? I followed you until your last sentence, for which I need a good translation. Otherwise, no, you can't lump all Christians into "mainline Christians" with the intent to show a "problem". Catholics, Orthodox, Lutherans, Presbyterians, Anglicans....do not have such a view as you are presupposing. I understand that Moses was not the author of the Pentateuch. Authorship of writings in the Bible were sometimes attributed to either the person/era/community of followers (disciples) from which the teachings came, or to give weight to the importance of what was being taught. Jesus was speaking to disciples of Moses. So yes, "Moses said" as in Moses taught. The authorship of the actual texts having a lesser importance than modern readers place on it. An importance that the authors of the text, did not hold.
Robert F. Smith Posted June 15, 2016 Posted June 15, 2016 (edited) 19 minutes ago, saemo said: I followed you until your last sentence, for which I need a good translation. It was a reductio ad absurdum to suggest that Jesus cared about the Higher Criticism or the Documentary Hypothesis. It was a rhetorical flourish by me. Otherwise, no, you can't lump all Christians into "mainline Christians" with the intent to show a "problem". Catholics, Orthodox, Lutherans, Presbyterians, Anglicans....do not have such a view as you are presupposing. I was replying to his comments on errors/contradictions (aporias), which I do not believe mainstream Christians have yet been able to deal with: Quote thesometimesaint said: Every single prophet fails that test, including Jesus. It has been over 2000 years and he ain't come back in glory yet. Errors/Contradictions in the Bible SEE http://www.freethoughtdebater.org/2011/12/30/bible-errors-and-contradictions/ I understand that Moses was not the author of the Pentateuch. Authorship of writings in the Bible were sometimes attributed to either the person/era/community of followers (disciples) from which the teachings came, or to give weight to the importance of what was being taught. Jesus was speaking to disciples of Moses. So yes, "Moses said" as in Moses taught. The authorship of the actual texts having a lesser importance than modern readers place on it. An importance that the authors of the text, did not hold. I agree with you here. Edited June 15, 2016 by Robert F. Smith
Skylla Posted June 16, 2016 Posted June 16, 2016 9 hours ago, snowflake said: There is no suspicion that the Holy Spirit is useless at all, I absolutely believe in the Holy Spirit. I am suspicious of the "LDS" Holy Spirit, for good reason as described before. The scriptures tell us that God cannot lie, so how can you trust the feeling you call the "Holy Spirit" when it when it gives different answers to different people? To you it tells you that your sect of Mormonism is "true". To others it confirms a different answer, and the people that believe in the "sealed portion" a different answer as well. Both cannot be "true", So that is why I believe your version of the Holy Spirit is erroneous. The group from Colorado City is confident that Warren Jeffs is their "prophet", and you would say it is Mr. Thomas Monson. Not sure what you mean by "the arm of flesh", please explain. Read the board guidelines. Do not compare President Monson to Warren Jeffs. Skylla
snowflake Posted June 16, 2016 Posted June 16, 2016 11 hours ago, Skylla said: Read the board guidelines. Do not compare President Monson to Warren Jeffs. Skylla Sorry.
Atheist Mormon Posted June 16, 2016 Author Posted June 16, 2016 16 hours ago, thesometimesaint said: Every single prophet fails that test, including Jesus. It has been over 2000 years and he ain't come back in glory yet. Errors/Contradictions in the Bible SEE http://www.freethoughtdebater.org/2011/12/30/bible-errors-and-contradictions/ Knowing what you know, why would you still believe?
thesometimesaint Posted June 16, 2016 Posted June 16, 2016 My beliefs fill a deep need in me to be better, and do better. To appeal to an authority, and power greater than myself. To commune with the infinite love from God. For the sake of the argument lets' say our atheist friends are correct. That after this life it is just the abyss. Then none of us will know any differently anyway. 2
mfbukowski Posted June 18, 2016 Posted June 18, 2016 On 6/16/2016 at 5:32 AM, Atheist Mormon said: Knowing what you know, why would you still believe? Because he knows more than you can fathom. 1
Atheist Mormon Posted June 18, 2016 Author Posted June 18, 2016 7 hours ago, mfbukowski said: Because he knows more than you can fathom. Who? (I'm presuming God). Does that anyone to deal with somebody invisible unseen? "The Father is immeasurable, the Son is immeasurable, the Holy Spirit is immeasurable." Does this (even it were a fact) help me in any shape or manner?
thesometimesaint Posted June 18, 2016 Posted June 18, 2016 3 hours ago, Atheist Mormon said: Who? (I'm presuming God). Does that anyone to deal with somebody invisible unseen? "The Father is immeasurable, the Son is immeasurable, the Holy Spirit is immeasurable." Does this (even it were a fact) help me in any shape or manner? Those aren't LDS beliefs.
rodheadlee Posted June 18, 2016 Posted June 18, 2016 On 6/14/2016 at 0:00 PM, snowflake said: Christ is the mediator between God and Man, and we have direct access to God through Christ. Not sure what you mean in your statement above.......please explain. How do you know that? How do you know Christ died for you? How do you know He was resurrected?
Atheist Mormon Posted June 18, 2016 Author Posted June 18, 2016 1 hour ago, thesometimesaint said: Those aren't LDS beliefs. I don't disagree but; mfbukowski says; "Because he knows more than you can fathom."....Fits into athanasian esoteric philosophy........
thesometimesaint Posted June 18, 2016 Posted June 18, 2016 12 minutes ago, Atheist Mormon said: I don't disagree but; mfbukowski says; "Because he knows more than you can fathom."....Fits into athanasian esoteric philosophy........ I certainly hope God knows more than I do. My knowledge is but a tiny thimble in the vast oceans of my ignorance.
Calm Posted June 18, 2016 Posted June 18, 2016 5 hours ago, Atheist Mormon said: Who? (I'm presuming God). You were asking a question of TSS,so I suspect mfb meant him. 1
thesometimesaint Posted June 18, 2016 Posted June 18, 2016 33 minutes ago, Calm said: You were asking a question of TSS,so I suspect mfb meant him. I certainly hope not. I only claim to be smarter than the average bear. But then again bear's aren't very smart. 1
Freedom Posted June 18, 2016 Posted June 18, 2016 On 6/16/2016 at 5:32 AM, Atheist Mormon said: Knowing what you know, why would you still believe? Knowing that scientists sometimes misinterpret the data, why would you still believe in science? We do not worship prophets, we worship God. Or am I misunderstanding your point. 1
mfbukowski Posted June 19, 2016 Posted June 19, 2016 11 hours ago, Atheist Mormon said: Who? (I'm presuming God). Does that anyone to deal with somebody invisible unseen? "The Father is immeasurable, the Son is immeasurable, the Holy Spirit is immeasurable." Does this (even it were a fact) help me in any shape or manner? Facts? I double dog dare you to actually read this and watch the video This is what I meant when I said that you were naive about all this. Brilliant stuff, not written well philosophically but will communicate to non- philosophers well: Unfortunately Hofman seems to think he invented this even if it goes back to Kant 200 years ago http://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2016/04/the-illusion-of-reality/479559/ 2
Atheist Mormon Posted June 19, 2016 Author Posted June 19, 2016 1 hour ago, mfbukowski said: Facts? I double dog dare you to actually read this and watch the video This is what I meant when I said that you were naive about all this. Brilliant stuff, not written well philosophically but will communicate to non- philosophers well: Unfortunately Hofman seems to think he invented this even if it goes back to Kant 200 years ago http://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2016/04/the-illusion-of-reality/479559/ I'm not naive about this at all, in fact I did experience plenty of unseen part of consciousness....But what good it was for spirituality? You still depend on 99% reality to conduct an average life.....I watched his TED talk, although I don't disagree, what I'm gonna do tomorrow about it? Nothing will change; I still will go to work, interact with people same... There's nothing hidden or magic potions out thee can change anyone's life.... This type of information is not leading me anywhere... It's interesting though....
Teancum Posted June 19, 2016 Posted June 19, 2016 On June 16, 2016 at 1:25 PM, thesometimesaint said: My beliefs fill a deep need in me to be better, and do better. To appeal to an authority, and power greater than myself. To commune with the infinite love from God. For the sake of the argument lets' say our atheist friends are correct. That after this life it is just the abyss. Then none of us will know any differently anyway. Do atheists teach this life is the abyss?
mfbukowski Posted June 19, 2016 Posted June 19, 2016 4 hours ago, Atheist Mormon said: I'm not naive about this at all, in fact I did experience plenty of unseen part of consciousness....But what good it was for spirituality? You still depend on 99% reality to conduct an average life.....I watched his TED talk, although I don't disagree, what I'm gonna do tomorrow about it? Nothing will change; I still will go to work, interact with people same... There's nothing hidden or magic potions out thee can change anyone's life.... This type of information is not leading me anywhere... It's interesting though.... It shows that science is no more factual than religion within its sphere- reality itself is virtual reality. Neither correspond to reality because reality is unknowable If you cannot see the implications for religion and your whole understanding of "facts" there isn't much I can do for you 1
Stargazer Posted June 19, 2016 Posted June 19, 2016 On 6/9/2016 at 7:47 AM, Johnnie Cake said: I'm going to count the seconds until this thread is closed... 1,2,3... Still counting? It's up to around 864,000 by my reckoning. 3
Atheist Mormon Posted June 19, 2016 Author Posted June 19, 2016 7 hours ago, mfbukowski said: It shows that science is no more factual than religion within its sphere- reality itself is virtual reality. Neither correspond to reality because reality is unknowable If you cannot see the implications for religion and your whole understanding of "facts" there isn't much I can do for you Reality is very much "knowable" . As I've wrote, this guy, (sorry to say) swims in Deepak Chopra's esoteric realms (one of his popular speakers, Deepak Chopra Foundation). I no interest to waste with these type of hypoteses, because it delivers nothing substantial..... It's all talk....Fine & dandy....What can we do with it?
thesometimesaint Posted June 19, 2016 Posted June 19, 2016 10 hours ago, Teancum said: Do atheists teach this life is the abyss? Not that I know of.
thesometimesaint Posted June 19, 2016 Posted June 19, 2016 32 minutes ago, Atheist Mormon said: Reality is very much "knowable" . As I've wrote, this guy, (sorry to say) swims in Deepak Chopra's esoteric realms (one of his popular speakers, Deepak Chopra Foundation). I no interest to waste with these type of hypoteses, because it delivers nothing substantial..... It's all talk....Fine & dandy....What can we do with it? Yes and no. Reality is processed through our very much prone to error brains.
mfbukowski Posted June 19, 2016 Posted June 19, 2016 (edited) 7 hours ago, Atheist Mormon said: Reality is very much "knowable" . As I've wrote, this guy, (sorry to say) swims in Deepak Chopra's esoteric realms (one of his popular speakers, Deepak Chopra Foundation). I no interest to waste with these type of hypoteses, because it delivers nothing substantial..... It's all talk....Fine & dandy....What can we do with it? Show that your arguments are relevant to show what they purportedly show. Shopra or not, this is the primary view of philosophers today about consciousness. Shopra just capitalizes on it and makes it magical for the audience - he is a showman but his information follows current trends in thought Edited June 19, 2016 by mfbukowski typo- changed "irrelevant" to "relevant"
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