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Posted (edited)

Stuff I've heard in the last year——

1. Obama will be last president to sit in White House. The 2nd coming is going to happen and there will be no new president elected Nov. 2016, rather the Lord will rule. This reportedly came from "Spencer", the hero of the popular LDS NDE book Visions Of Glory, who beheld in vision that Obama would be last president.

2. There will be a giant earthquake along Wasatch Front during general conference, and in this earthquake half of the Quorum of Twelve will be wiped out and half of MoTabs. This also comes from Spencer in Visions Of Glory. (One interesting bit of folklore not in the book but which is whispered about is that Spencer knows the names of the six of the Twelve who die but he is not going to reveal these names.)

3. The Lord is going to appear in general conference with a missionary haircut and dressed in a missionary suit. This also comes from Visions Of Glory. If I remember correctly, this is going to happen at time of earthquake when half of Q12 and half of MoTabs die.

4. Multiple probations and baby resurrections, which according LDS folklore was taught by Eliza R. Snow, who was taught it by Joseph Smith. According to this doctrine we all have had, and may yet have, multiple probations on earth. The doctrine is really just reincarnation. According to this doctrine, resurrection is nothing more nor less than being born into a new probation. Many LDS fundamentalist sects still teach this doctrine, for example, Jim Harmston, leader of the "Manti Mormons", taught it.

5. John Koyle and the dream mine. "Bishop Koyle", as he is known to people who still believe in him (he was once a bishop), said the angel Moroni appeared to him in vision and told him there was gold in the mountain behind his farm in Spanish Fork. Koyle, and his followers, dug in this mountain for 20 years or so . . . and there was no gold. However Koyle persisted in believing there was gold in the mountain, even after he was excommunicated. There are a few hundred LDS who still believe in Koyle and that there is either gold in the  mountain or that gold will be placed there at the proper time, and that this gold will save the church in a time of trouble.

6. A latter day "marred servant", or "servant". This servant is not to be confused with the "one mighty and strong". The doctrine of a latter day marred servant comes from some obscure interpretation of Isaiah in which prophecies referring to Christ have a dual meaning. These prophecies not only refer to Christ, the Messiah, but a latter day marred servant, or simply servant. LDS who believe in this folk doctrine believe this servant is among us now and will shortly make himself known.

7. The second coming is going to happen very soon, no later than 2020 and no sooner than 2017.

 

 

Edited by bdouglas
Posted
39 minutes ago, bdouglas said:

Stuff I've heard in the last year——

1. Obama will be last president to sit in White House. The 2nd coming is going to happen and there will be no new president elected Nov. 2016, rather the Lord will rule. This reportedly came from "Spencer", the hero of the popular LDS NDE book Visions Of Glory, who beheld in vision that Obama would be last president.

2. There will be a giant earthquake along Wasatch Front during general conference, and in this earthquake half of the Quorum of Twelve will be wiped out and half of MoTabs. This also comes from Spencer in Visions Of Glory. (One interesting bit of folklore not in the book but which is whispered about is that Spencer knows the names of the six of the Twelve who die but he is not going to reveal these names.)

3. The Lord is going to appear in general conference with a missionary haircut and dressed in a missionary suit. This also comes from Visions Of Glory. If I remember correctly, this is going to happen at time of earthquake when half of Q12 and half of MoTabs die.

4. Multiple probations and baby resurrections, which according LDS folklore was taught by Eliza R. Snow, who was taught it by Joseph Smith. According to this doctrine we all have had, and may yet have, multiple probations on earth. The doctrine is really just reincarnation. According to this doctrine, resurrection is nothing more nor less than being born into a new probation. Many LDS fundamentalist sects still teach this doctrine, for example, Jim Harmston, leader of the "Manti Mormons", taught it.

5. John Koyle and the dream mine. "Bishop Koyle", as he is known to people who still believe in him (he was once a bishop), said the angel Moroni appeared to him in vision and told him there was gold in the mountain behind his farm in Spanish Fork. Koyle, and his followers, dug in this mountain for 20 years or so . . . and there was no gold. However Koyle persisted in believing there was gold in the mountain, even after he was excommunicated. There are a few hundred LDS who still believe in Koyle and that there is either gold in the  mountain or that gold will be placed there at the proper time, and that this gold will save the church in a time of trouble.

6. A latter day "marred servant", or "servant". This servant is not to be confused with the "one mighty and strong". The doctrine of a latter day marred servant comes from some obscure interpretation of Isaiah in which prophecies referring to Christ have a dual meaning. These prophecies not only refer to Christ, the Messiah, but a latter day marred servant, or simply servant. LDS who believe in this folk doctrine believe this servant is among us now and will shortly make himself known.

7. The second coming is going to happen very soon, no later than 2020 and no sooner than 2017.

 

 

What scares me most about the above is that there are Church members who actually believe it.

Posted
39 minutes ago, bdouglas said:

Stuff I've heard in the last year——

1. Obama will be last president to sit in White House. The 2nd coming is going to happen and there will be no new president elected Nov. 2016, rather the Lord will rule. This reportedly came from "Spencer", the hero of the popular LDS NDE book Visions Of Glory, who beheld in vision that Obama would be last president.

2. There will be a giant earthquake along Wasatch Front during general conference, and in this earthquake half of the Quorum of Twelve will be wiped out and half of MoTabs. This also comes from Spencer in Visions Of Glory. (One interesting bit of folklore not in the book but which is whispered about is that Spencer knows the names of the six of the Twelve who die but he is not going to reveal these names.)

3. The Lord is going to appear in general conference with a missionary haircut and dressed in a missionary suit. This also comes from Visions Of Glory. If I remember correctly, this is going to happen at time of earthquake when half of Q12 and half of MoTabs die.

4. Multiple probations and baby resurrections, which according LDS folklore was taught by Eliza R. Snow, who was taught it by Joseph Smith. According to this doctrine we all have had, and may yet have, multiple probations on earth. The doctrine is really just reincarnation. According to this doctrine, resurrection is nothing more nor less than being born into a new probation. Many LDS fundamentalist sects still teach this doctrine, for example, Jim Harmston, leader of the "Manti Mormons", taught it.

5. John Koyle and the dream mine. "Bishop Koyle", as he is known to people who still believe in him (he was once a bishop), said the angel Moroni appeared to him in vision and told him there was gold in the mountain behind his farm in Spanish Fork. Koyle, and his followers, dug in this mountain for 20 years or so . . . and there was no gold. However Koyle persisted in believing there was gold in the mountain, even after he was excommunicated. There are a few hundred LDS who still believe in Koyle and that there is either gold in the  mountain or that gold will be placed there at the proper time, and that this gold will save the church in a time of trouble.

6. A latter day "marred servant", or "servant". This servant is not to be confused with the "one mighty and strong". The doctrine of a latter day marred servant comes from some obscure interpretation of Isaiah in which prophecies referring to Christ have a dual meaning. These prophecies not only refer to Christ, the Messiah, but a latter day marred servant, or simply servant. LDS who believe in this folk doctrine believe this servant is among us now and will shortly make himself known.

7. The second coming is going to happen very soon, no later than 2020 and no sooner than 2017.

 

 

What scares me most about the above is that there are Church members who actually believe it.

Posted

A great place for Mormon folklore is from missions. There was one from my mission (Iowa) where supposedly a Pentecostal faith healer healed a missionary in my mission from a hurt leg while they were walking down the street and talked to him. However the mission president found out and had to cast a demon out of the Elder's leg because the demon was the source of the healing. I understand other missions may have similar stories 

Posted
1 minute ago, boblloyd91 said:

A great place for Mormon folklore is from missions. There was one from my mission (Iowa) where supposedly a Pentecostal faith healer healed a missionary in my mission from a hurt leg while they were walking down the street and talked to him. However the mission president found out and had to cast a demon out of the Elder's leg because the demon was the source of the healing. I understand other missions may have similar stories 

Yeah, that one made the rounds in my mission as well (Tennessee and Kentucky).  Pretty sure it didn't happen.

Posted

In talking about Mormon folklore, I think we need to be careful to avoid discounting that people have had miraculous and neat experiences. That's why I don't trust something if there is no primary source, however I do believe people in the church both in the past and currently have had and do have miraculous and faith building experiences

Posted

Or that Moroni visited George Washington Carver.....hooey balooey!

or Moroni dedicated the Manti Temple site, like just that one? and not the million other ones in the US? hmm.................... strange......................

Posted (edited)
26 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

What scares me most about the above is that there are Church members who actually believe it.

Yes, there are, but it's hard to say how many. I know someone personally who believes fervently in all of the above. I know someone else who sold his biz, and moved together with his family to await "call out" as "prophesied" by Julie Rowe (the female "Spencer"). Or I guess technically she didn't prophesy "call out", she saw it in her NDE.

(Julie Rowe comes across as  more nutty than Spencer, although she does not have Spencer's grandiosity and apparent narcissism.)

Edited by bdouglas
Posted
1 hour ago, bdouglas said:

Yes, there are, but it's hard to say how many. I know someone personally who believes fervently in all of the above. I know someone else who sold his biz, and moved together with his family to await "call out" as "prophesied" by Julie Rowe (the female "Spencer"). Or I guess technically she didn't prophesy "call out", she saw it in her NDE.

(Julie Rowe comes across as  more nutty than Spencer, although she does not have Spencer's grandiosity and apparent narcissism.)

Wow.  That's either an amazing amount of faith or a complete lack of understanding of priesthood order.  Or both.

Posted (edited)
41 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

Wow.  That's either an amazing amount of faith or a complete lack of understanding of priesthood order.  Or both.

There are actually quite a few of these folk, although they stay under the radar. You can find them on LDSFreedomForum.com and other sites I'm not familiar with. Visions Of Glory has had lots of believers, but I think the number of these believers has been dropping off, and in a few years I think the book will be forgotten (as will Julie Rowe).

A lot of LDS see books like Visions Of Glory or people like Julie Rowe and Spencer as harmless, but I don't. Several months back there was a lot of talk and buzz among LDS fundamentalists (I don't mean ones who are out of the church but ones who are in the church) about Elul 29. Elul 29 was the Hebrew date when "major tribulations" were to begin, the tribulations that are to immediately precede 2nd coming. But Elul 29 came and went, and on the morning after I think there were a lot of bummed out people.

What do you do when the man you follow — whether it be Harold Camping, Spencer or Julie Rowe — what do you do when this figure says 2nd coming is going to happen on Wednesday and you believe him with all of your heart and you are "all in", fully invested; but then Wednesday comes and goes and nothing happens? What do you do on Thursday morning? (At least one of Harold Camping's followers committed suicide.)

Well, the hardcore followers and believers dig in. They re-double their commitment. They say, "The Lord has given us a reprieve!" Or, "Our calculations were off, but that is all."

But what about the others? These others can become disillusioned, some severely so, to the point where they throw over not only religion but belief in God altogether.

These are the one that worry me, and when Spencer and Visions Of Glory and Julie Rowe with her books and prophesies . . . when these and others like them are forgotten, the human wreckage will remain i.e. the disillusioned, the disappointed, the ones who threw out the baby with the bath water.

Edited by bdouglas
Posted
18 minutes ago, bdouglas said:

There are actually quite a few of these folk, although they stay under the radar. You can find them on LDSFreedomForum.com and other sites I'm not familiar with. Visions Of Glory has had lots of believers, but I think the number of these believers has been dropping off, and in a few years I think the book will be forgotten (as will Julie Rowe).

A lot of LDS see books like Visions Of Glory or people like Julie Rowe and Spencer as harmless, but I don't. Several months back there was a lot of talk and buzz among LDS fundamentalists (I don't mean ones who are out of the church but ones who are in the church) about Elul 29. Elul 29 was the Hebrew date when "major tribulations" were to begin, the tribulations that are to immediately precede 2nd coming. But Elul 29 came and went, and on the morning after I think there were a lot of bummed out people.

What do you do when the man you follow — whether it be Harold Camping, Spencer or Julie Rowe — what do you do when this figure says 2nd coming is going to happen on Wednesday and you believe him with all of your heart and you are "all in", fully invested; but then Wednesday comes and goes and nothing happens? What do you do on Thursday morning? (At least one of Harold Camping's followers committed suicide.)

Well, the hardcore followers and believers dig in. They re-double their commitment. They say, "The Lord has given us a reprieve!" Or, "Our calculations were off, but that is all."

But what about the others? These others can become disillusioned, some severely so, to the point where they throw over not only religion but belief in God altogether.

These are the one that worry me, and when Spencer and Visions Of Glory and Julie Rowe with her books and prophesies . . . when these and others like them are forgotten, the human wreckage will remain i.e. the disillusioned, the disappointed, the ones who threw out the baby with the bath water.

A grave concern indeed.

Was "Elul 29" in connection with the lunar eclipse and all that was supposed to transpire in connection with that some months ago?

 

Posted
26 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

A grave concern indeed.

Was "Elul 29" in connection with the lunar eclipse and all that was supposed to transpire in connection with that some months ago?

 

With Elul 29 there was also a lot of talk about "blood moons", "passover moons" . . . I have never been able to follow it all, and really I was never that interested, I was more interested in the personality type. I think there are more of these people than is apparent. In a typical Utah ward, I'll bet there are a half dozen or more, but you wouldn't know it. The ones I know about go to 5 a.m. group meetings where they study the mysteries. They talk very freely about revelations, confirmations or "directives" they have received. They are very big on Isaiah, Ezekiel — in fact, the more difficult and abstruse the scripture or mystery, the more they seem drawn to it. They pride themselves on their scripture knowledge and openly disparage the brethren . . . although they are nominally active and in many cases have temple recs.

I repeat, these are the ones I know about, or am acquainted with, but I think they are typical.

Posted

Of course the granddaddy of all LDS folk doctrine is . . . Adam-God. But this happens to be a folk doctrine I have some sympathy for. Over the weekend I was reading B. H. Roberts The Missouri Persecutions and I read the chapter on Adam-On-Diahman (not sure about spelling) and then read in Daniel about the Ancient Of Days and future gathering when "books shall be opened" and Adam will judge his posterity, etc, etc. And I thought, "Maybe Brigham Young was right."

Posted
5 hours ago, Coreyb said:

You can sell those you know. 

The only people who would buy them would be those who believe that the angel Moroni prophesied that there was gold in those hills to a bishop.

It is the least profitable gold mine in American history. One person claims they saw gold but it was made inaccessible when they struck an underground stream.

The shares are still around and are hard to buy as some survivalist goldbugs still think they will find gold which will help Zion in its hour of need and presumably make a handsome profit themselves.

Of course the apostles with actual keys told the bishop to stop and he repudiated the visions and then later recanted and said again that his experience was authentic.

5 hours ago, jkwilliams said:

I don't think I could in good conscience. 

With that target market? C'mon!

I mean, your target market are those who believe in the visitations of angels but not in the words of the prophet saying they were false. They have to believe gold will be worth something right before the end. They have to be greedy for easy money.

So....a third of the population of Utah? ;) 

Posted
4 minutes ago, bdouglas said:

Of course the granddaddy of all LDS folk doctrine is . . . Adam-God. But this happens to be a folk doctrine I have some sympathy for. Over the weekend I was reading B. H. Roberts The Missouri Persecutions and I read the chapter on Adam-On-Diahman (not sure about spelling) and then read in Daniel about the Ancient Of Days and future gathering when "books shall be opened" and Adam will judge his posterity, etc, etc. And I thought, "Maybe Brigham Young was right."

I still believe it but not in the way most other people do.

Posted
13 minutes ago, bdouglas said:

Of course the granddaddy of all LDS folk doctrine is . . . Adam-God. But this happens to be a folk doctrine I have some sympathy for. Over the weekend I was reading B. H. Roberts The Missouri Persecutions and I read the chapter on Adam-On-Diahman (not sure about spelling) and then read in Daniel about the Ancient Of Days and future gathering when "books shall be opened" and Adam will judge his posterity, etc, etc. And I thought, "Maybe Brigham Young was right."

Well I believe it 100%.  But it's hardly based on a legend or rumour.  It really was a teaching of the then President of the Church.

Posted
5 hours ago, bdouglas said:

Stuff I've heard in the last year——

1. Obama will be last president to sit in White House. The 2nd coming is going to happen and there will be no new president elected Nov. 2016, rather the Lord will rule. This reportedly came from "Spencer", the hero of the popular LDS NDE book Visions Of Glory, who beheld in vision that Obama would be last president.

2. There will be a giant earthquake along Wasatch Front during general conference, and in this earthquake half of the Quorum of Twelve will be wiped out and half of MoTabs. This also comes from Spencer in Visions Of Glory. (One interesting bit of folklore not in the book but which is whispered about is that Spencer knows the names of the six of the Twelve who die but he is not going to reveal these names.)

3. The Lord is going to appear in general conference with a missionary haircut and dressed in a missionary suit. This also comes from Visions Of Glory. If I remember correctly, this is going to happen at time of earthquake when half of Q12 and half of MoTabs die.

4. Multiple probations and baby resurrections, which according LDS folklore was taught by Eliza R. Snow, who was taught it by Joseph Smith. According to this doctrine we all have had, and may yet have, multiple probations on earth. The doctrine is really just reincarnation. According to this doctrine, resurrection is nothing more nor less than being born into a new probation. Many LDS fundamentalist sects still teach this doctrine, for example, Jim Harmston, leader of the "Manti Mormons", taught it.

5. John Koyle and the dream mine. "Bishop Koyle", as he is known to people who still believe in him (he was once a bishop), said the angel Moroni appeared to him in vision and told him there was gold in the mountain behind his farm in Spanish Fork. Koyle, and his followers, dug in this mountain for 20 years or so . . . and there was no gold. However Koyle persisted in believing there was gold in the mountain, even after he was excommunicated. There are a few hundred LDS who still believe in Koyle and that there is either gold in the  mountain or that gold will be placed there at the proper time, and that this gold will save the church in a time of trouble.

6. A latter day "marred servant", or "servant". This servant is not to be confused with the "one mighty and strong". The doctrine of a latter day marred servant comes from some obscure interpretation of Isaiah in which prophecies referring to Christ have a dual meaning. These prophecies not only refer to Christ, the Messiah, but a latter day marred servant, or simply servant. LDS who believe in this folk doctrine believe this servant is among us now and will shortly make himself known.

7. The second coming is going to happen very soon, no later than 2020 and no sooner than 2017.

Jesus 2016! Finally, a viable third-party candidate.

Why does this guy hate MoTab so much that he feels he needs to comment on their deaths specifically?

What is a "missionary suit"? Isn't it just a normal suit?

Multiple incarnations. Has this life really been so kind to people that they would regret leaving it? They want to go through the pains of being a child and a teenager all over again? Sickos.

Because what Zion will need in the last days is gold and lots of it so they can do.....what with it? Pave the streets? Pretty sure that is a descriptive metaphor. A gold street would be a death trap.

I got punched on my mission twice and still have a small scar. Can I be the "marred servant"?

There is a certain narcissism tied to believing the Savior MUST return in MY lifetime. I expect to be dead and buried before it happens. I would welcome an earlier return....but I doubt it.

Posted (edited)
16 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

Jesus 2016! Finally, a viable third-party candidate.

Why does this guy hate MoTab so much that he feels he needs to comment on their deaths specifically?

What is a "missionary suit"? Isn't it just a normal suit?

Multiple incarnations. Has this life really been so kind to people that they would regret leaving it? They want to go through the pains of being a child and a teenager all over again? Sickos.

Because what Zion will need in the last days is gold and lots of it so they can do.....what with it? Pave the streets? Pretty sure that is a descriptive metaphor. A gold street would be a death trap.

I got punched on my mission twice and still have a small scar. Can I be the "marred servant"?

There is a certain narcissism tied to believing the Savior MUST return in MY lifetime. I expect to be dead and buried before it happens. I would welcome an earlier return....but I doubt it.

A "missionary suit" is a dark conservative suit like you wear if you are a missionary — of if you worked for IBM in the 1970s. But HE doesn't just appear in Gen. Conference in missionary suit, he appears with a missionary haircut too  (according to Spencer).

As for "multiple probations", it's a good thing I don't believe in it, because if I did, I would be very depressed. There is a complete lack of scriptural support for the idea — in fact the scriptures say the opposite, that men "die once, then go to judgement." (Heb.) However, I do believe that I (and everyone else) must've had other probations — just not on this earth. After all, what I was, and what were you, doing in the eons before coming here? And what will we be doing in the eternity after?

Edited by bdouglas
Posted
15 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

The myth that they built elevator shafts in the Salt Lake temple, before they knew elevators existed.  

But.....but they did put in the air conditioning ducts before they had AC right.....RIGHT?!?! STOP TEARING DOWN MY FAITH!!!!

Posted
17 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

I got punched on my mission twice and still have a small scar. Can I be the "marred servant"?

According to the people who believe this doctrine, or this obscure interpretation of Isaiah, he is "marred" because he is rejected by the powers that be i.e. by church leaders — or at least this is the way someone explained it to me, someone who fervently believes in this "marred servant". According to this person, modern church leaders are "drunk on the strong drink of member adulation." This is drawn from some scripture in Isaiah, where (this person said) Isaiah was speaking of our day and our church leaders. To the people who think like this, or believe this, the church is in apostasy and will be "set in order" by the "servant", a servant who is already among us but which we do not recognize.

How many people are there in the church who think like this? I don't know. The ones I know who think like this are big fans of Avraham Gileadi and his writings. They are also big fans of Visions Of Glory. Some think Spencer is the marred servant.

Posted
2 hours ago, bdouglas said:

According to the people who believe this doctrine, or this obscure interpretation of Isaiah, he is "marred" because he is rejected by the powers that be i.e. by church leaders — or at least this is the way someone explained it to me, someone who fervently believes in this "marred servant". According to this person, modern church leaders are "drunk on the strong drink of member adulation." This is drawn from some scripture in Isaiah, where (this person said) Isaiah was speaking of our day and our church leaders. To the people who think like this, or believe this, the church is in apostasy and will be "set in order" by the "servant", a servant who is already among us but which we do not recognize.

How many people are there in the church who think like this? I don't know. The ones I know who think like this are big fans of Avraham Gileadi and his writings. They are also big fans of Visions Of Glory. Some think Spencer is the marred servant.

So being attacked by a drugged up skinhead in Britain does not qualify me? That is sad. :( 

Spencer is a nut, probably mentally ill, and a liar and not even a good and consistent liar. There are times I wish I had no conscience. I could write a much better and more convincing book more consistent with LDS doctrine making me Christ's equal or second-in-command or whatever he thinks he is. I could probably get more money out of it too.

Posted

I remember going to the then Nauvoo Temple ground about 20 years now and one of the guides said that when the Saints left Nauvoo some left their dishes in the wells because they thought they'd be coming back. Has anyone ever heard of this? Did later people find these dinner plates and stuff in the wells?

Posted

Several years ago I was in the Manti temple. I'd just finished a session and I was in the dressing room when I saw on a table a document titled "Resurrection Testimony". It was written by a funeral home director. His brother had died years earlier and he'd embalmed the body, placed it in the coffin, sealed it and buried it. Years later he had to move the coffin to a new graveyard, and after the coffin had been exhumed he decided to have a look inside. But when he looked inside, there was — nothing. He said his brother had been as righteous a man as he'd ever known, and he knew that he'd been resurrected.

I've wondered why people tell stories like this. I guess it's possible this story is literally true, and like the Savior, this man's body was no more in the tomb (in this case, coffin) because he'd been resurrected early. But more likely the remains of the man who'd died were still in the coffin, looking as they would normally look 20 or so years after death. If so, why did this man tell this story? I guess his intent was to increase faith, to bear testimony of the resurrection.

Posted
29 minutes ago, bdouglas said:

Several years ago I was in the Manti temple. I'd just finished a session and I was in the dressing room when I saw on a table a document titled "Resurrection Testimony". It was written by a funeral home director. His brother had died years earlier and he'd embalmed the body, placed it in the coffin, sealed it and buried it. Years later he had to move the coffin to a new graveyard, and after the coffin had been exhumed he decided to have a look inside. But when he looked inside, there was — nothing. He said his brother had been as righteous a man as he'd ever known, and he knew that he'd been resurrected.

I've wondered why people tell stories like this. I guess it's possible this story is literally true, and like the Savior, this man's body was no more in the tomb (in this case, coffin) because he'd been resurrected early. But more likely the remains of the man who'd died were still in the coffin, looking as they would normally look 20 or so years after death. If so, why did this man tell this story? I guess his intent was to increase faith, to bear testimony of the resurrection.

Maybe for faith promoting purposes like you said, similar to Paul H. Dunn's baseball and war stories.  There was usually something in them to promote faith.  

How about the cricket story in our pioneer history?  Or the story about people seeing Joseph Smith in Brigham Young during a sermon and they knew he was supposed to be the next prophet?  These stories are what I remember  being taught as a child.  But now I believe they were not exactly fact, only faith promoting, like the myth I found recently about the elevator shafts being built before anyone knew what an elevator was.

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