The end goal of all temple work

[VideoGameJunkie]

2 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

Yes that's right.  Two different worlds - the living and the dead.

After someone passes he will be able to combine those records into one family and do away with the duplicates.

Great, now I have to "take care of" my parents if I want to get the accurate records on the site.

[Ahab]

22 minutes ago, VideoGameJunkie said:

Great, now I have to "take care of" my parents if I want to get the accurate records on the site.

Quite an honor for you.  Congratulations! 

[Ahab]

1 hour ago, Pa Pa said:

Why do some try to limit or narrow family to just Mother, Father and their children? I have never understood this. 

Because that's the essence of what a family is.  What we sometimes call a nuclear family,  referring to the nucleus of what a family is.  

From there it branches out in both directions, showing the Mother and Father as children of their own parents, going back a generation,  and going forward showing those children as either Mothers or Fathers themselves.  

That's how we're all connected,  with some connection to all Mothers and Fathers in the past and our children also being connected to all of us.

I think you know this but maybe were just not thinking of it this way.

[JAHS]

The main and most important blessing of the sealing ordinance is being sealed into God's eternal family in heaven, regardless of whether all ancestors make it there or not. Even though we are sealed to our children and parents, once we get there and become god's of our own universes, we probably won't see them much. Therefore probably the most important sealing that connects people eternally together is that of husband and wife.

 

[mfbukowski]

1 hour ago, VideoGameJunkie said:

Great, now I have to "take care of" my parents if I want to get the accurate records on the site.

It is a commandment to turn your hearts to the "fathers"

The plan of salvation has no prupose and the purpose of the entire plan would be wasted without this work.  Exaltation within the family IS the plan.

[VideoGameJunkie]

33 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

It is a commandment to turn your hearts to the "fathers"

The plan of salvation has no prupose and the purpose of the entire plan would be wasted without this work.  Exaltation within the family IS the plan.

Apparently people missed my sick joke. Taking care of my parents meant finding a way for them to be killed so I could accurately get the accounts on the website since posters here said you can't get them while they're living. Just a sick attempt at mafia humor. Last time I watch Goodfellas.

[halconero]

9 hours ago, Ahab said:

Thank you. You give me a word. And now I show you how the root of that word is Greek.

Many people today understand the church as being a building, but, eh, that has not always been so. That is not a biblical understanding of the word church. The word church comes from the Greek word ekklesia, which is defined as "an assembly" or "called-out ones". The root meaning of the word church, then, is not that of a building, but of people. 

So, there you go.

Now give me another word and I will show you how the root of that word is Greek!

I mean...I spent four years reading Koine Greek. So you're not surprising me with any of this.

[Ahab]

8 hours ago, halconero said:

I mean...I spent four years reading Koine Greek. So you're not surprising me with any of this.

Not surprised that I saw the movie or that I like to quote or do little skits based on movies I've seen?

Temple work is like F &T meetings I think.  It isn't that anything new is going on, it's just that everybody should do it or have it done for them.

[Tacenda]

20 minutes ago, Ahab said:

Not surprised that I saw the movie or that I like to quote or do little skits based on movies I've seen?

Temple work is like F &T meetings I think.  It isn't that anything new is going on, it's just that everybody should do it or have it done for them.

But they're not or temples would be open 24/7.  Ever checked all the temples for the times they're open?  I did, and it was surprising to me that more people weren't utilizing the temple or the temples in many parts of the world aren't open for as long as others.  

If people's testimonies of the work being done there are true, I wonder why they aren't being used as much.  It's not like the leadership in the church aren't telling them to, it's a huge part of the church.

[halconero]

2 hours ago, Ahab said:

Not surprised that I saw the movie or that I like to quote or do little skits based on movies I've seen?

Temple work is like F &T meetings I think.  It isn't that anything new is going on, it's just that everybody should do it or have it done for them.

Huh? No. I mean the Greek.

[halconero]

2 hours ago, Tacenda said:

But they're not or temples would be open 24/7.  Ever checked all the temples for the times they're open?  I did, and it was surprising to me that more people weren't utilizing the temple or the temples in many parts of the world aren't open for as long as others.  

If people's testimonies of the work being done there are true, I wonder why they aren't being used as much.  It's not like the leadership in the church aren't telling them to, it's a huge part of the church.

It's the classic testimony vs. conversion. I actually know a few people in my life who have testimonies of various things within the Gospel, yet are lukewarm when it comes to acting on them.

I know that for myself it was the promise Elder Scott made to young people in his talk "The Joy of Redeeming the Dead" that resulted in my own research of ancestors and the performance of ordinances for them. I can honestly say that promise has been fulfilled in my life in so far as the influence of the adversary has been extensively minimized. Hence, the testimony of the work has been combined with converting action sustained by the promises and grace of Christ. It's actually quite saddening now when I talk with people who have zero desire to do family history or do the ordinances thereof. Last week for Family Home Evening in our YSA ward we were preparing everyone to have a familysearch.org account and go through the steps of entering an ancestor to printing their name off for the temple (we have a quite a few that have a) never done it, b) are recent converts, or c) are returning members). It was at once invigorating to see people get engaged and prep names for our ward baptism trip last night, and sad when one member came in, looked around, and said "nah. My sister does all of this already," and walked out.

Hence...many have testimonies, but few are converted to temple work.

[Rivers]

In all honesty, I can't say I have a huge testimony of temple work. It's one of those aspects of the gospel that I struggle with.  Why is it that these ordinances are so gosh darn important that we spend so much time and resources doing all this work for the dead? We could be doing a lot more for the living.  It all feels so arbitrary to me.  It's something of which I need to gain a testimony AND be converted.

[Ahab]

2 hours ago, Rivers said:

In all honesty, I can't say I have a huge testimony of temple work. It's one of those aspects of the gospel that I struggle with.  Why is it that these ordinances are so gosh darn important that we spend so much time and resources doing all this work for the dead? We could be doing a lot more for the living.  It all feels so arbitrary to me.  It's something of which I need to gain a testimony AND be converted.

I accept as a fact that our Father in heaven is a stickler for details. That he likes and approves of rules and regulations and laws to establish order from what could otherwise be very chaotic.  And that he likes things to be externally visible in some way when it comes to what he approves of and doesn't approve of. Baptism, for example, as an externally visible act that symbolizes something deeper than just the mere act of it displays. That it's about more than just dunking somebody under some water. And that it's something that he can point to as something that he approves of and that has been done. 

Once I came to the point where I could see ordinances as symbols my thoughts about temples and temple ordinance work seemed to fall into place as just making good sense.  If we must have ordinances, because of how he feels about symbolism,  then we must have someplace where we can do them. Where everbody can do them. Places that are bridges between different dimensions in time and place, so to speak.  Places that are built for those holy purposes, set apart from the places where other things, more temporal things,  usually happen.  The living can be baptized anywhere on this planet where temporal things usually happen, but places where both the living and the dead usually congregate need to be different kinds of places, again as an issue of symbolism. 

Edited April 21, 2016 by Ahab

[Guest]

22 hours ago, Ahab said:

Because that's the essence of what a family is.  What we sometimes call a nuclear family,  referring to the nucleus of what a family is.  

From there it branches out in both directions, showing the Mother and Father as children of their own parents, going back a generation,  and going forward showing those children as either Mothers or Fathers themselves.  

That's how we're all connected,  with some connection to all Mothers and Fathers in the past and our children also being connected to all of us.

I think you know this but maybe were just not thinking of it this way.

Not sure as I have a very large extended family. Also generations of Saints who have be sealed to their families who were sealed from the beginning of the Church. As most families who have parents who began the Church. 

[VideoGameJunkie]

I really hate that we have to wait until they would've been 110 years old. Why can't they just make it 100 years old? Who ruined this for us because I was told it wasn't this strict in the past.

[mfbukowski]

10 hours ago, Rivers said:

In all honesty, I can't say I have a huge testimony of temple work. It's one of those aspects of the gospel that I struggle with.  Why is it that these ordinances are so gosh darn important that we spend so much time and resources doing all this work for the dead? We could be doing a lot more for the living.  It all feels so arbitrary to me.  It's something of which I need to gain a testimony AND be converted.

The living are so... perishable.

There's a lot of turnover in that portion of humanity.  They are quite fragile, and here today and gone tomorrow.  You fix a heart- and in a few years they are gone anyway.

Now you do something for a dead person- THAT service is going to last a lot longer.

I am kidding of course but there is truth in there somewhere.

[mfbukowski]

4 hours ago, VideoGameJunkie said:

I really hate that we have to wait until they would've been 110 years old. Why can't they just make it 100 years old? Who ruined this for us because I was told it wasn't this strict in the past.

This requirement is designed for non-members not for us.

I have relatives who think I have made my ancestors- their parents perhaps- the members of a cult after they have passed away.

Imagine that you are not LDS and you hear that someone has put a voodoo curse on your dead grandmother and she is now a voodoo goddess against her will because of the spell they put on her.

THAT is the level of understanding of some of these folks.

So now the church has to receive thousands of letters from irate relatives because we have made granny a Mormon even though she was a lifelong- Evangelical, Catholic, Buddhist- whatever.  People get upset at the church and will never join and become totally anti-Mormon without even understanding the theory behind it.

And now people are living longer.  I now KNOW 2 people who made it past 100 years old and several in their late nineties. They could be my parents.

On the other hand, waiting does not harm the people in getting their work done if they want it done.

Maybe you will not get to do it, but your kids or nephews etc might, or their kids etc.  The point is the work WILL get done.  

So putting them in the database is the right thing to do FOR THEM.

Temple work is not about doing the ordinances yourself for selfish purposes- think of THEM.  Now they are assured that their work WILL be done eventually.  If they had to wait for any one person to submit them to the data base, it might happen or not.  You put them in line waiting for the prize, and winning is now a certainty- it's just a question of how long they have to wait.

If you don't put them in at all- they are not even "in line" and then who knows how it will turn out?

So that is the problem

[Tacenda]

Where in the LDS scriptures does it lay out temple work?  I'd like to do some reading.  If anyone feels like helping a lackadaisical scripture reader.  

[RevTestament]

39 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

Where in the LDS scriptures does it lay out temple work?  I'd like to do some reading.  If anyone feels like helping a lackadaisical scripture reader.  

Corinthians speaks of baptism for the dead, as does D & C - just do a scripture search. The other ordinances are not "laid out" in the scriptures, although you will find correlations between the ordinances themselves and Bible passages. Perhaps someone else can point you to a specific book, but an overall search on LDS.org should turn up Ensign articles and talks on the subject.

[RevTestament]

17 hours ago, Rivers said:

In all honesty, I can't say I have a huge testimony of temple work. It's one of those aspects of the gospel that I struggle with.  Why is it that these ordinances are so gosh darn important that we spend so much time and resources doing all this work for the dead? We could be doing a lot more for the living.  It all feels so arbitrary to me.  It's something of which I need to gain a testimony AND be converted.

I now regard baptism as symbolic at least in part of being physically raised out of the world - in other words resurrected. Thus, I have come to believe that baptism is critical for the next resurrection. My current thinking is those who are not baptized will not be resurrected next time, so allowing the dead to accept this ordinance is critical to their resurrection. I don't really want to look my relative in the eye and say "sorry I was too busy to help you out..." That doesn't really fly too well in the gospel. 

[halconero]

3 hours ago, Tacenda said:

Where in the LDS scriptures does it lay out temple work?  I'd like to do some reading.  If anyone feels like helping a lackadaisical scripture reader.  

Aside from Paul's excellent discourse in 1 Corinthians 15 (which is primarily concerned with the Resurrection; Paul uses baptism for the dead to justify Resurrection, not the other way around), my best suggestions would be the latter portions of D&C.

Specifically:

D&C 124: 29-44 - Explains why work for the dead needs to be done in temples and that the Lord's people always strive to have temples

D&C 127: Explains the importance of record  (general sealing power of all ordinances, not just marriage)

D&C 128 (personally, my favourite section regarding temple work, and a great one overall, Joseph's language of praise for God, Christ, the Restoration, and the Work is one of the most beautiful passages in existence of all literature)

• 1-5 - More on the importance of recorders
• 6-9 - How record keeping is tied to the sealing power (not just marriage, but sealing power of ordinances in general)
• 10-14 - The symbolism of baptism as it relates to death, the grave, and resurrection
• 15-17 - How work for the dead was restored
• 18-21 - How it ties into the Restoration in general
• 22-25 - Glorious praise and news based off this work

D&C 138: How temple work is conducted on the other side of the veil.

[Ahab]

10 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

This requirement is designed for non-members not for us.

I have relatives who think I have made my ancestors- their parents perhaps- the members of a cult after they have passed away.

Imagine that you are not LDS and you hear that someone has put a voodoo curse on your dead grandmother and she is now a voodoo goddess against her will because of the spell they put on her.

THAT is the level of understanding of some of these folks.

So now the church has to receive thousands of letters from irate relatives because we have made granny a Mormon even though she was a lifelong- Evangelical, Catholic, Buddhist- whatever.  People get upset at the church and will never join and become totally anti-Mormon without even understanding the theory behind it.

And now people are living longer.  I now KNOW 2 people who made it past 100 years old and several in their late nineties. They could be my parents.

On the other hand, waiting does not harm the people in getting their work done if they want it done.

Maybe you will not get to do it, but your kids or nephews etc might, or their kids etc.  The point is the work WILL get done.  

So putting them in the database is the right thing to do FOR THEM.

Temple work is not about doing the ordinances yourself for selfish purposes- think of THEM.  Now they are assured that their work WILL be done eventually.  If they had to wait for any one person to submit them to the data base, it might happen or not.  You put them in line waiting for the prize, and winning is now a certainty- it's just a question of how long they have to wait.

If you don't put them in at all- they are not even "in line" and then who knows how it will turn out?

So that is the problem

I just recently got notification from LDS.org that the work for my Granddad can now be done. I'm the closest to him, genealogically, who is also a member of the Church so I get first dibs on being allowed to do his work for him. I now have his name reserved so that only I will be able to do it.

It may be a while before I do it though because 2 of his children are still living.  My Dad and 1 of his 2 sisters, my favorite aunt. They wouldn't like it if I told them I had done his work, and I am still holding on to the possibility that maybe someday before they die they will become members and want to do his work for him themselves.  Or at least maybe my Dad could,  my Granddad's only male child, without including his grandchildren, like me.

My Dad is now 83 and still in pretty good health,  so at least physically that is still a possibility.  He doesn't like me to talk about religion with him though, with his mind firmly set on the idea that I am wrong and am not open to the truth as much as he thinks he is open to it and right. He has been a minister for another church during most of his life, as was my Granddad,  who had already died when I first found out about what Mormonism is and became a Mormon.

I now wonder sometimes if my Granddad is anxious for me to do his work for him or if he still thinks he has already been properly baptised.  

[Tacenda]

6 hours ago, RevTestament said:

Corinthians speaks of baptism for the dead, as does D & C - just do a scripture search. The other ordinances are not "laid out" in the scriptures, although you will find correlations between the ordinances themselves and Bible passages. Perhaps someone else can point you to a specific book, but an overall search on LDS.org should turn up Ensign articles and talks on the subject.

Thanks!!

[Tacenda]

3 hours ago, halconero said:

Aside from Paul's excellent discourse in 1 Corinthians 15 (which is primarily concerned with the Resurrection; Paul uses baptism for the dead to justify Resurrection, not the other way around), my best suggestions would be the latter portions of D&C.

Specifically:

D&C 124: 29-44 - Explains why work for the dead needs to be done in temples and that the Lord's people always strive to have temples

D&C 127: Explains the importance of record  (general sealing power of all ordinances, not just marriage)

D&C 128 (personally, my favourite section regarding temple work, and a great one overall, Joseph's language of praise for God, Christ, the Restoration, and the Work is one of the most beautiful passages in existence of all literature)

• 1-5 - More on the importance of recorders
• 6-9 - How record keeping is tied to the sealing power (not just marriage, but sealing power of ordinances in general)
• 10-14 - The symbolism of baptism as it relates to death, the grave, and resurrection
• 15-17 - How work for the dead was restored
• 18-21 - How it ties into the Restoration in general
• 22-25 - Glorious praise and news based off this work

D&C 138: How temple work is conducted on the other side of the veil.

Glad you chimed in too, very informative.  I thought there would be some scriptures from the BOA also, but guess not.  Thanks!!

[Rivers]

I guess I need to spend more time in the Doctrine and Covenants.  I've always struggled with that standard work.