Fiji Temple Cyclone: Would you send it into the temple, the main city... or just snuff it out

[The Mean Farmer]

On 4/8/2016 at 6:57 AM, Hamba Tuhan said:

My apologies; I didn't mean to imply that you had. I had Paul -- and specifically 1 Corinthians 2:14 -- in mind when I typed those inverted commas.

After we finished our lesson this evening, I asked Elder T------- if I could ask him a very personal and possibly sensitive question about Fiji that was currently being bandied about on the internet right now. He said sure. (I was confident he'd be OK with it -- I was with him right after he'd received news of the cyclone from his parents, and so I knew how he'd reacted then -- but it's better to check.)

So I asked him what you've asked me. He had two responses, which I'll do my level best to paraphrase accurately:

• As a member of the Church, I have come to know God personally and so I trust Him. Through personal experience, I have learnt that He always has reasons for why He does what He does. Sometimes we don't understand those reasons at first, but if we are patient and faithful, we will always understand.

I pushed him a bit on this point since I thought that might be what you would do, and I asked him specifically why, if God could protect the temple dedication, he wouldn't protect the people in his home village. His face actually brightened up with this question, and he gave me the following impassioned answer:

• Before the cyclone, everyone on our island hated each other. Because of the coups and all the political tensions, we have always been divided and angry. But I have had so many emails from family and friends who have written about what a blessing the cyclone has been. The tragedy has caused people to forget their differences and the old hatreds. Everybody is working together now, alongside each other. My cousin told me that she has never before seen the people from our island so unified and so happy.

As I a missionary in search of people to teach I had no care for the animosity between the Fijians, Indians, Part-Europeans, Rotumans, etc...   And this does my heart so much good!  My love for the people, their cultures and lives hasn't diminished in 25 years and I really hope they can band together and stay together.

 

Isa....it has been  a long time!!

[Hamba Tuhan]

5 hours ago, The Mean Farmer said:

I really hope they can band together and stay together.

This has to be the hope, doesn't it? Too often these kinds of lessons are learnt -- as Book of Mormon makes abundantly clear -- until the people again find themselves in comfortable circumstances. But I do have genuine hope. Our Elder is iTaukei, but I've never once heard him use that descriptor, and he defiantly insists that anyone born in Fiji is Fijian, end of story.

[rodheadlee]

On 4/8/2016 at 5:22 PM, canard78 said:

So said Elder Oaks this week in conference.

I'm curious to know how believers feel about this? If, as Elder Oaks seems to suggest, God chose to protect the Fiji temple, was it justified, given the impact it had on others. 

Deseret news reported:

The cyclone path crossed over the north of the island, destroying the homes of families and killing people in its wake. The message from the leaders suggests they believe Suva & the temple was protected from the impact of the storm. If that's the case, and divine influence pushed the storm to the north side, away from the south side of the island (where Suva is located), how do you feel?

Did God make the right call. If you had divine power over the elements would you:

1. Nudge it north to provide a faith promoting experience to Mormons. Nevermind the deaths and destruction of homes in the north...
2. Allow it to go south. The temple dedication can always happen another day and it's only bricks and mortar, the church can afford the repairs
3. Send it much further north or south all together. After all the preparation and work, let the dedication celebrations go ahead unhindered and not sacrifice the people on the north of the island while we're at it

How is #3 not the only reasonable course of action. If Mormon leaders and members believe in a God that intervenes to protect the temple, why only protect the south part of the Fiji island. Why not go just a little further and push the whole cyclone out over the sea.

I have some questions for you.

1)Did you pray for this typhoon to miss Fiji with firmness of mind, exceeding faith and plead your cause? If not why not?

2) Did you mourn the victims and send your sustenance, food, clothing, money? If not, why not? 

3) Are you using these victims of the typhoon to beat the Lord's Apostles over the head? Why? Has your compassion turned to anger?

4)Should God save everyone in the face of a disaster? or just those that pray to Him once in a while when they need something? or those that have a daily relationship with Him?

5) Can God resurrect the dead or not? If not why bother praying at all? If so then pray the Dead are with God today.

I didn't know about this typhoon but normally I watch the weather and pray for all of the people in the paths of hurricanes because I'm a sailor and have been through 2 hurricanes and a tsunami. Some people are just not aware, so they don't. Millions prayed for a hurricane that was due to hit Puerta Vallarta last year, it did change course and went ashore in a largely uninhabited area, so yes he does answer Catholic prayers.

http://www.kentuckynewera.com/news/ap/article_659df598-7b7a-11e5-98c0-cbc808e042f9.html

Edited April 9, 2016 by rodheadlee

[canard78]

On 9 April 2016 at 0:35 AM, rodheadlee said:

I have some questions for you.

1)Did you pray for this typhoon to miss Fiji with firmness of mind, exceeding faith and plead your cause? If not why not?

2) Did you mourn the victims and send your sustenance, food, clothing, money? If not, why not? 

3) Are you using these victims of the typhoon to beat the Lord's Apostles over the head? Why? Has your compassion turned to anger?

4)Should God save everyone in the face of a disaster? or just those that pray to Him once in a while when they need something? or those that have a daily relationship with Him?

5) Can God resurrect the dead or not? If not why bother praying at all? If so then pray the Dead are with God today.

I didn't know about this typhoon but normally I watch the weather and pray for all of the people in the paths of hurricanes because I'm a sailor and have been through 2 hurricanes and a tsunami. Some people are just not aware, so they don't. Millions prayed for a hurricane that was due to hit Puerta Vallarta last year, it did change course and went ashore in a largely uninhabited area, so yes he does answer Catholic prayers.

http://www.kentuckynewera.com/news/ap/article_659df598-7b7a-11e5-98c0-cbc808e042f9.html

Interesting questions, which raise other questions. 

1. No. The first I heard of this typhoon was after the event. I don't believe that God caused or guided this typhoon though. I think it was a typical Fijian storm. 

It raises a counter-question though. Do you believe that prayers avert disaster? Do you think, therefore, that the storm could have been pushed right out into the sea if people had prayed harder? Were the prayers in the south heads, but not those that likely were offered in the north?

2. I regularly donate to disaster relief. I hadn't for this one. It's a good reminder.

3. This is a discussion board. The disaster had already been used by an apostle to teach a principle. We are now discussing that principle. Elder Oaks started the conversation and we're continuing it. I'm not angry, I'm curious to understand the rationale behind the beliefs that are being expressed by him and now you. 

4. Now you're asking some good questions. I'm happy to explore this one a lot further. Yes or no. But there should be some consistency. I don't see any consistency in the possible divine interventions. I don't see God ever "claiming" them, instead I see humans claiming them on his behalf. Usually that's when things have gone their way. When they haven't there's usually another explanation (unworthiness or teaching a lesson) etc  

5. I hope so. I've not yet seen any evidence that he can... but that's probably a conversation for another day. 

[ERMD]

Ample evidence is found in scripture (OT, NT, BoM) that God can and does cause natural phenomena that could be called disasters, depending on who you ask.  These as well as illnesses and infirmities can serve a purpose.  Consider John 9:1-3 (emphasis added):

1 And as Jesus passed by, he saw a man which was blind from his birth.

2 And his disciples asked him, saying, Master, who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind?

3 Jesus answered, Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents: but that the works of God should be made manifest in him.

Are we to condemn God because the man was born blind?  Are we to condemn the Savior because he didn't heal everyone?  Are we to condemn John because he reported what happened?

 

 

Edited April 11, 2016 by ERMD

[rodheadlee]

13 hours ago, canard78 said:

Interesting questions, which raise other questions. 

1. No. The first I heard of this typhoon was after the event. I don't believe that God caused or guided this typhoon though. I think it was a typical Fijian storm. 

It raises a counter-question though. Do you believe that prayers avert disaster? Do you think, therefore, that the storm could have been pushed right out into the sea if people had prayed harder? Were the prayers in the south heads, but not those that likely were offered in the north?

2. I regularly donate to disaster relief. I hadn't for this one. It's a good reminder.

3. This is a discussion board. The disaster had already been used by an apostle to teach a principle. We are now discussing that principle. Elder Oaks started the conversation and we're continuing it. I'm not angry, I'm curious to understand the rationale behind the beliefs that are being expressed by him and now you. 

4. Now you're asking some good questions. I'm happy to explore this one a lot further. Yes or no. But there should be some consistency. I don't see any consistency in the possible divine interventions. I don't see God ever "claiming" them, instead I see humans claiming them on his behalf. Usually that's when things have gone their way. When they haven't there's usually another explanation (unworthiness or teaching a lesson) etc  

5. I hope so. I've not yet seen any evidence that he can... but that's probably a conversation for another day. 

It will be a few days before I can give a thoughtful answer. I go in for a surgical procedure on my back tomorrow. Thanks for being thoughtful with your answers.

[Calm]

Good luck with your procedure, Rod.

[canard78]

1 hour ago, rodheadlee said:

It will be a few days before I can give a thoughtful answer. I go in for a surgical procedure on my back tomorrow. Thanks for being thoughtful with your answers.

Best wishes with your surgery.

[rodheadlee]

On 4/12/2016 at 8:31 PM, Calm said:

Good luck with your procedure, Rod.

 

On 4/12/2016 at 9:39 PM, canard78 said:

Best wishes with your surgery.

Thanks. It was an epidural but they knocked me out for it. I got 8 injections in 4 different vertebrae. The euphoria has worn off and I feel like a pincushion. it's the last chance before I seek laser surgery. I'll post more later, thank you.

[rodheadlee]

On 4/11/2016 at 6:06 AM, canard78 said:

Interesting questions, which raise other questions. 

1. No. The first I heard of this typhoon was after the event. I don't believe that God caused or guided this typhoon though. I think it was a typical Fijian storm. 

It raises a counter-question though. Do you believe that prayers avert disaster? Do you think, therefore, that the storm could have been pushed right out into the sea if people had prayed harder? Were the prayers in the south heads, but not those that likely were offered in the north?

2. I regularly donate to disaster relief. I hadn't for this one. It's a good reminder.

3. This is a discussion board. The disaster had already been used by an apostle to teach a principle. We are now discussing that principle. Elder Oaks started the conversation and we're continuing it. I'm not angry, I'm curious to understand the rationale behind the beliefs that are being expressed by him and now you. 

4. Now you're asking some good questions. I'm happy to explore this one a lot further. Yes or no. But there should be some consistency. I don't see any consistency in the possible divine interventions. I don't see God ever "claiming" them, instead I see humans claiming them on his behalf. Usually that's when things have gone their way. When they haven't there's usually another explanation (unworthiness or teaching a lesson) etc  

5. I hope so. I've not yet seen any evidence that he can... but that's probably a conversation for another day. 

I'm glad you are compassionate, it makes me happy. In regards to your counter-question, I believe God mitigates the effects of disasters for those who have a close relationship with Him. I believe if enough people pray about it, having a  close relationship with God, He will avert disaster if he can. Sometimes he is restricted by free agency or the effects on other people, such as small islands not readily visible in the picture of the typhoon path.

An anecdotal example would be: We were sailing from Bora Bora to Tutuila, in a 38 foot boat, it's an 1100 mile journey. Our path of travel put us consistently in a thousand mile long squall line. I prayed mightily to Heavenly Father to move these squalls from our path, He had done so before. The answer came back immediately, "No, These things must needs be, but I will keep you safe". I believe these instances of help are followed by a faith test to see if we believed Him. About 250 miles out of Tutuila our rigging broke. I could have gotten mad at God and cursed Him or believed Him and continued with our daily/hourly prayers. We did arrive safely, in the middle of the night after days of 35 knot winds. I was sitting in the anchorage for quite a few days before I realized that if HF moved the squall line it would have deprived the island of her water supply.

I also believe He uses disasters to call us to repentance. If I may quote some scripture : 3 Nephi 10:

 1 And now behold, it came to pass that all the people of the land did hear these sayings, and did witness of it. And after these sayings there was silence in the land for the space of many hours;

  2 For so great was the astonishment of the people that they did cease lamenting and howling for the loss of their kindred which had been slain; therefore there was silence in all the land for the space of many hours.

  3 And it came to pass that there came a voice again unto the people, and all the people did hear, and did witness of it, saying:

  4 O ye people of these agreat cities which have fallen, who are descendants of Jacob, yea, who are of the house of Israel, how oft have I gathered you as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and have nourished you.

  5 And again, how oft would I have gathered you as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, yea, O ye people of the house of Israel, who have fallen; yea, O ye people of the house of Israel, ye that dwell at Jerusalem, as ye that have fallen; yea, how oft would I have gathered you as a hen gathereth her chickens, and ye would not.

  6 O ye house of Israel whom I have spared, how oft will I gather you as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, if ye will repent and return unto me with full purpose of heart.

  7 But if not, O house of Israel, the places of your dwellings shall become desolate until the time of the fulfilling of the covenant to your fathers.

  8 And now it came to pass that after the people had heard these words, behold, they began to weep and howl again because of the loss of their kindred and friends.

I believe according to some other post on this thread that Fiji benefited from this storm by a renewal of love and caring for their neighbors. Yes it is a tough way to go but death of the mortal body is not the worst thing that can happen to you. The second death is, spiritual death, to be cut off from God for all eternity is the worst thing that can happen to you. That is why it is important to have a daily/hourly relationship with Heavenly Father. Scripture like Alma 36:3 is very important to us to maintain our faith and have God be with us in the face of disaster. 

3 And now, O my son Helaman, behold, thou art in thy youth, and therefore, I beseech of thee that thou wilt hear my words and learn of me; for I do know that whosoever shall put their trust in God shall be supported in their trials, and their troubles, and their afflictions, and shall be lifted up at the last day.

It doesn't say we won't have disaster, it says we will be supported and lifted up at the last day. i consider D&C 42:46 to be one of the most important scriptures for my life:

46 And it shall come to pass that those that die in me shall not taste of death, for it shall be sweet unto them;

[Teancum]

On ‎4‎/‎8‎/‎2016 at 8:37 PM, Russell C McGregor said:

Given that God, being God, has control over the elements, at all times, then surely not allowing any bad weather at all must be "the only reasonable course of action," right?

In fact, why doesn't God simply prevent any bad thing from happening to anyone, anywhere, at any time?

How unreasonable of Him, to expect us to live in a fallen world where accidents and natural disasters are regular occurrences!

 

Yes indeed. 

God seemed to deem it important enough to save the Fiji temple but not the Samoan temple.  And Elder Oaks also said he blunted the explosions from terrorists at the Belgium airport to save a couple Mormon missionaries but let 33 others die.  Oh and He also has let other missionaries die as well.  They just must not be as special right?

Easy answer Russell but it may make you head pop off to consider it.]

If we give a God credit for the good stuff we need to lay the crap at His feet as well.

 

 

[Teancum]

On ‎4‎/‎8‎/‎2016 at 8:59 PM, ERMD said:

"Indeed, when we are unduly impatient with an omniscient God’s timing, we really are suggesting that we know what is best. Strange, isn’t it—we who wear wristwatches seek to counsel Him who oversees cosmic clocks and calendars."

--Neal A. Maxwell

I thought Mormonism did not believe in an omniscient God.... well at least to some self appointed apologists.

[Teancum]

On ‎4‎/‎8‎/‎2016 at 11:55 AM, thesometimesaint said:

God allowed the original Nauvoo Temple to be burnt to the ground, and over 150 years later allowed it to be rebuilt. All for Gods' own purposes it would appear.

Or perhaps the people of Illinois simple burned it down and when the LDS Church had sufficient resources they simply rebuilt it.-

Edited April 18, 2016 by Teancum

[Teancum]

On ‎4‎/‎12‎/‎2016 at 10:54 PM, rodheadlee said:

It will be a few days before I can give a thoughtful answer. I go in for a surgical procedure on my back tomorrow. Thanks for being thoughtful with your answers.

Best wishes on your surgery.

[JAHS]

On 4/8/2016 at 5:22 PM, canard78 said:

So said Elder Oaks this week in conference.

I'm curious to know how believers feel about this? If, as Elder Oaks seems to suggest, God chose to protect the Fiji temple, was it justified, given the impact it had on others. 

Deseret news reported:

The cyclone path crossed over the north of the island, destroying the homes of families and killing people in its wake. The message from the leaders suggests they believe Suva & the temple was protected from the impact of the storm. If that's the case, and divine influence pushed the storm to the north side, away from the south side of the island (where Suva is located), how do you feel?

Did God make the right call. If you had divine power over the elements would you:

1. Nudge it north to provide a faith promoting experience to Mormons. Nevermind the deaths and destruction of homes in the north...
2. Allow it to go south. The temple dedication can always happen another day and it's only bricks and mortar, the church can afford the repairs
3. Send it much further north or south all together. After all the preparation and work, let the dedication celebrations go ahead unhindered and not sacrifice the people on the north of the island while we're at it

How is #3 not the only reasonable course of action. If Mormon leaders and members believe in a God that intervenes to protect the temple, why only protect the south part of the Fiji island. Why not go just a little further and push the whole cyclone out over the sea.

Anyone remember when the Manti Temple was protected from a tornado  back in 2002 that came dangerously close.

Rare Footage Shows Manti Temple Protected from Tornado in 2002

[Hamba Tuhan]

1 hour ago, Teancum said:

God seemed to deem it important enough to save the Fiji temple but not the Samoan temple.

Were you one of those children who felt it an injustice if your mum gave you a lolly one day but insisted you wait for dinner the next day?

59 minutes ago, Teancum said:

I thought Mormonism did not believe in an omniscient God.

Since when???

Edited April 18, 2016 by Hamba Tuhan

[Kenngo1969]

On 4/8/2016 at 4:05 PM, Jeanne said:

I agree with this part..We are not responsible for the bad things that happen in our lives..but my extended family blamed me for the death of my husband..had we just been active members or Temple married..little snide remarks that insinuated that I had betrayed him somehow.

 

On 4/8/2016 at 4:30 PM, bluebell said:

Some people are just jerks.

And it's too bad that some people who are jerks belong to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.  I'm grateful for the Restored Gospel of Jesus Christ and to be a member of the Church of Jesus Christ, but it's not some Talisman that prevents (or that shields me from) bad stuff happening.  

Sure, some benefits I can trace directly to my membership in the Church of Jesus Christ: While I don't think that everyone who doesn't obey the Law of Chastity is a crazed sex fiend, I do know that no one who obeys it is; while I don't think that everyone who doesn't obey the Word of Wisdom is a drug-crazed addict or an irresolute drunkard, I do know that no one who obeys it is; and so on.  

But in the short run and in strictly material terms, some of the less faithful (or even the outright wicked) are going to do better than I am.  ("Wait!  I thought that if I was righteous, I was gonna be rich!"  )  "God sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust, and maketh His sun to shine on the evil and on the good."

[thesometimesaint]

13 hours ago, Teancum said:

Or perhaps the people of Illinois simple burned it down and when the LDS Church had sufficient resources they simply rebuilt it.-

Still Gods' own purposes. "And said, Naked came I out of my mother's womb, and naked shall I return thither: the LORD gave, and the LORD hath taken away; blessed be the name of the LORD".
SEE Job 1:21

[Teancum]

14 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

Were you one of those children who felt it an injustice if your mum gave you a lolly one day but insisted you wait for dinner the next day?

Since when???

1:  No

2:  Since LDS Apologists like Blake Ostler have argued for a finite limited God.   Have you not seen others argue along those lines on this board?

[thesometimesaint]

So every apologist is correct in their apology, or just the ones you agree with? To be fair; there may be limits to Gods' omnipotence, but we don't know them. It is sufficient for me for him to have the power to save me.

Edited April 18, 2016 by thesometimesaint