Christian Apologetic Patterns

[consiglieri]

10 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

  To the contrary, Mormon theology rejects authoritative statements and puts the Holy Spirit in charge.

 

 

There you lost me, my friend.

I think you just did the LDS equivalent of calling the sky yellow.

Are you really saying that "Mormon theology rejects authoritative statements"?

I guess you must be because that is what you wrote.

Is this some other Mormon theology of which you speak?

I mean, some other Mormon theology that is not based exclusively on authoritative statements?

[juliann]

9 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

 

I would recommend that, when attributing a position to a General Authority, you actually quote him. My experience is that false positions are often attributed to GAs.  consigliere does that all the time.

Read what Elder Ballard actually has to say here: http://www.mormonnewsroom.org/a rticle/elder-m-russell-ballard-engaging-without-being-defensive , and here: http://www.mormonnewsroom.org/article/using-new-media-to-support-the-work-of-the-church .

Read what Elder Ballard actually has to say here  https://www.lds.org/broadcasts/article/evening-with-a-general-authority/2016/02/the-opportunities-and-responsibilities-of-ces-teachers-in-the-21st-century?lang=eng   Although I can see where adding "methods" would have been helpful to my meaning,  I think that my saying " Like Elder Ballard said, the old style teachings just aren't effective anymore...." is a fair and accurate conclusion. This was a ground breaking talk that got much attention. It should be in the realm of common knowledge for Mormons. I don't appreciate the undeserved implication that I am attributing false positions, Robert. 

 

Quote

 

It was only a generation ago that our young people’s access to information about our history, doctrine, and practices was basically limited to materials printed by the Church. Few students came in contact with alternative interpretations. Mostly, our young people lived a sheltered life.

Our curriculum at that time, though well-meaning, did not prepare students for today—a day when students have instant access to virtually everything about the Church from every possible point of view. 

 

 

Quote

In teaching your students and in responding to their questions, let me warn you not to pass along faith-promoting or unsubstantiated rumors or outdated understandings and explanations of our doctrine and practices from the past. It is always wise to make it a practice to study the words of the living prophets and apostles; keep updated on current Church issues, policies, and statements through mormonnewsroom.org and LDS.org; and consult the works of recognized, thoughtful, and faithful LDS scholars to ensure you do not teach things that are untrue, out of date, or odd and quirky.

Anyone who wants to understand Mormonism must now understand this to understand our religion as we move forward. The internet seems to collect a high number of those who still rely on out of date or odd and quirky statements they have pulled from anything ever said at any time. We still have a lot of people, from my generation in particular, who give more credence to McConkie and BY than Hinckley and Monson.  

Edited April 8, 2016 by juliann

[Daniel Peterson]

I've forgotten (if I ever knew) how to use the quote function here.  Sorry.  But I've just now realized that there is another comment from "salgare" that probably merits my response.

 

"I guess," he writes, speaking of me, "the good news is that he has mostly fallen from the lime light of at least the MDB board."

 

It's one of the abiding myths of the toxic message board where "salgare" (aka "Rockslider") hangs out that I've been "silenced" by the Brethren.  Certain folks there take deep and obviously gratifying pleasure in that thought.

 

I've already pointed out above that the Brethren weren't involved in the Maxwell Institute purge.  Now let me say something very briefly about the fantasy that I've been silenced:

 

I haven't.

 

In support of that denial, I'll mention just a few facts:

 

*  For years now, since well before the purge, I've been writing a weekly column (and co-authoring a separate biweekly column) for the Deseret News.  That hasn't changed.  And, once again, if the Brethren really wanted to silence me, I wouldn't have that bully pulpit.

 

*  Shortly after the purge, several fellow exiles from the New Maxwell Institute and I founded the Interpreter Foundation (http://www.mormoninterpreter.com), which is now nearing its 200th consecutive week of weekly journal publications.  I'm the chairman and president of Interpreter.  The other night, a friend who isn't officially connected with Interpreter showed me statistics indicating that Interpreter garners (many times) more daily "hits" than does the purged Maxwell Institute.  It's not even close.  

 

*  Interpreter's sixth book is just now coming from the press.  It will soon be listed for sale online with the other five:  http://www.mormoninterpreter.com/books/.

 

*  As of this moment, Interpreter has posted 163 scripture roundtables, in many of which I'm personally involved:  http://www.mormoninterpreter.com/books/

 

*  Just a few weeks ago, Interpreter sponsored a conference at Utah Valley University on science and Mormonism, at which, among others, the Vatican astronomer spoke:  http://www.mormoninterpreter.com/events/2016-second-interpreter-science-mormonism-symposium-body-brain-mind-and-spirit/

 

*  This past Wednesday, Interpreter co-sponsored a mini-conference at BYU on the textual history of the Book of Mormon:  http://www.mormoninterpreter.com/upcoming-lectures-editing-out-the-bad-grammar-in-the-book-of-mormon/  

 

*  My fairly substantial review of a non-LDS book on the idea of human deification in Western history just appeared about a week ago in BYU Studies, the University's flagship journal.

 

*  I'll be speaking at three public Mormon/Muslim events in the Phoenix area this coming weekend, and at a Mormon-related conference in Göteborg, Sweden during the summer.  This is in addition to a number of other local and regional firesides that I'll be doing, as I always do, every month.  I believe that I'm also scheduled to speak at the annual FairMormon conference in early August.  (I normally speak at Education Week later every August, but, this summer, will be overseas again at that time and unable to do so.)

 

That's some "silence."

 

"Salgare" takes satisfaction in the supposed fact that I've "fallen from the lime light of at least the MDB board."  But I'm not sure what that assertion is even supposed to mean.  I suppose one possibility might be that I've been banned from posting here.  But the evidence seems to be against that idea.  The fact is, simply, that I'm busy.  The Interpreter Foundation takes a fair amount of time, as does my teaching load at BYU.  As does my blog on Patheos (http://www.patheos.com/blogs/danpeterson/).  Heck, I haven't even had much time over the past couple of years for my Mormon Scholars Testify project (http://mormonscholarstestify.org).

 

"Salgare's" conviction that I've been "silenced" -- a conviction that he shares with others in his curious little faith community -- bears no resemblance to reality. 

Edited April 8, 2016 by Daniel Peterson

[Rain]

10 minutes ago, Daniel Peterson said:

 

*  I'll be speaking at three public Mormon/Muslim events 

In Phoenix.

Sorry, having problems with the quotes, but it doesn't matter for the conversation in this thread.  Just - is this something I could attend?  Since I don't have info about it I don't know that it would be a choice I would make our if the timing is right,  but if I could attend would you give me more information about it please? 

[juliann]

Quote

[Rain]

26 minutes ago, Daniel Peterson said:

3 minutes ago, juliann said:

Quote

Thank you juliann. 

[Daniel Peterson]

There's also a Friday noon event at the LDS Institute in Tempe, at ASU.  And a Saturday evening event at the same location.

[Robert F. Smith]

19 hours ago, salgare said:

I don't think that has happened in direct words, however the general message of "do what works for you" leaves that wide open.  IMO, this is the king pin of any potential total switch from holding onto orthodoxy/doctrine and opening the tent size up to larger than any NOM could dream for (humanistic atheist as welcome as any, well except gays of course).  The finger pointing and public cries of apostasy against the new guard is/was a scary thing.  With the honor code careers are at stake, memberships are at stake.  Who is going to be the brave soul/group that crosses this line, stands up is Fast and Test. and declares their true believes.

My gut feeling tells me the whole firing had a foundation in the scholars needing to professionally start taking this stand as they get totally clobber in public and professional realms as we say happen with Bill Hamblin.  Wow what an embarrassment.   No Professional at BYU wants to say they support Ancient BoM Studies, as we all found all following along with Bill's debacle there is no such thing.

When the Church's tent becomes large enough for public acceptance of non-historical BoM I wonder how many of the likes of Scott and Kevin will be able to shelf that one.  I think its a matter of the Church timing it right, but for now, like we saw this last conference, the pulpit still cries out to fear the wolfs clothed in sheep's clothing ... tough diverse crowd to play to.  Seems they are holding steady on the correlated group with a bone thrown this time to the old schoolers.

So you are unable to reply to the CFR with any actual instances.  However, you do suggest a great and very imaginative Hollywood script.  Absurd and unreal, but lots of fun to contemplate.

[Jeanne]

After all this publicity here Mr. Peterson, there is no doubt in my mind how special you are to the Brethren.

[Robert F. Smith]

2 hours ago, consiglieri said:

There you lost me, my friend.

I think you just did the LDS equivalent of calling the sky yellow.

Are you really saying that "Mormon theology rejects authoritative statements"?

I guess you must be because that is what you wrote.

Is this some other Mormon theology of which you speak?

I mean, some other Mormon theology that is not based exclusively on authoritative statements?

You have smeared the LDS Church with the authoritarian label, Counselor, even though it has a theology which strongly rejects that in favor of the Holy Spirit, and which has the concomitant advantage of dependence on (1) councils, and on (2) decentralization.

You have deliberately given a bad rap to LDS theology and church structure, two of the most powerful reasons why you are consistently wrong in your bleak assessments.  You might try coming to grips with Brother Brigham's quotes.  Moreover, you might try inquiring of evangelicals why it is that they fear Pentecostal and Mormon focus on the Holy Spirit.  Why do they consider such a focus so dangerous in each case?  Once again, you lack perspective.

[Robert F. Smith]

2 hours ago, juliann said:

Read what Elder Ballard actually has to say here  https://www.lds.org/broadcasts/article/evening-with-a-general-authority/2016/02/the-opportunities-and-responsibilities-of-ces-teachers-in-the-21st-century?lang=eng   Although I can see where adding "methods" would have been helpful to my meaning,  I think that my saying " Like Elder Ballard said, the old style teachings just aren't effective anymore...." is a fair and accurate conclusion. This was a ground breaking talk that got much attention. It should be in the realm of common knowledge for Mormons. I don't appreciate the undeserved implication that I am attributing false positions, Robert. 

...............................................  

Thank you for calling his recent words to my attention, juliann.  I read all he said with great care, even though I could not find him saying that " the old style teachings just aren't effective anymore."  Inserting "methods" does help, but changes the entire meaning.  The quote you provide, "let me warn you not to pass along faith-promoting or unsubstantiated rumors or outdated understandings and explanations of our doctrine and practices from the past," is wise counsel.  He wants CES personnel to avoid schlock.  I emphatically agree, but insist that we could avoid so many misunderstandings were we to go through the time-consuming process of providing actual quotes and sources at the outset.  A stitch in time, as it were.

[cinepro]

18 hours ago, juliann said:

I've always found this reasoning curious. BYU is a very big enterprise. Which "GA" keeps tabs on every going on in every corner? How much power would such a GA have to meddle? Would this happen in other Church enterprises that have employees hired to run them....presumably because they have the expertise? Or are GA's called because they have secret knowledge of the ins and outs of every corner of church business that surpass those hired? I wonder how many expert football coaches we have hidden in our GA population! Is that why the football coach got another job!!??  Most of all...why would they want to get involved in every dispute? This one involved a relatively few people. I'm pretty sure that in hindsight it would have all gone down differently. What I do think is the biggest eyeroll is that anyone would think that the "new guard" at MI wants anything to do with what Salgare is spreading. 

I am most fascinated by those who need this event to stay in the forefront when everyone involved has moved on. I think the Church is pulling the rug out from under some complainers recently and in very big ways. What does a church hater do when faced with directives that we help refugees or when the church is doing the hard work to provide the women's history that has been missing. While they are doing the heavy work, OW is demanding a personal reading of complaints. It's not a good contrast  haven't been happy with some things the church has been slow about and I don't hesitate to talk about it...but I have noticed that there has been silence or utter pettiness when stuff starts happening that silences a favorite criticism. 

 

 

I acknowledged that obviously the General Authorities on the BYU Board of Trustees (and otherwise involved in the university) wouldn't be involved with every decision in every department.  Certainly, if someone want to suggest that the changes made to the MI weren't the kind of changes that would rise to the level of awareness of the GA's involved with BYU, that's a possibility.  From my extreme outsider perspective (and from what I've seen of Petersen's notoriety in some circles), it seems odd that a major decision regarding his status would be made without involving the Board of Trustees, but I guess it could happen.  I'm just saying that it would seem unlikely that they didn't know about it, especially after the brouhaha that followed.

 

[cinepro]

1 hour ago, Robert F. Smith said:

You have smeared the LDS Church with the authoritarian label, Counselor, even though it has a theology which strongly rejects that in favor of the Holy Spirit, and which has the concomitant advantage of dependence on (1) councils, and on (2) decentralization.

 

 

 

Quote

 

authoritarian

a. favoring complete obedience or subjection to authority as opposed to individual freedom:

b. of or relating to a governmental or political system, principle, or practice in which individual freedom is held as completely subordinate to the power or authority of the state, centered either in one person or a small group that is not constitutionally accountable to the people.

c. exercising complete or almost complete control over the will of another or of others:

http://www.dictionary.com/browse/authoritarian

Maybe you can help me see how the Church isn't "authoritarian"?

For example, you mention councils and decentralization.  Can you provide some examples of ways in which councils and local leaders or members wouldn't be expected to be obedient to the policies contained in the Handbook of Instructions, or the doctrines and teachings contained in the scriptures as interpreted by the leaders in SLC?

Edited April 8, 2016 by cinepro

[Daniel Peterson]

The Brethren learned about the purge after it happened, cinepro.  

 

I'm not merely speculating on this.

[USU78]

15 hours ago, The Nehor said:

Unless it came from someone in the healthcare field HIPAA does not apply to them.

In which case it's what, if not gossip? 

[USU78]

5 hours ago, consiglieri said:

You may have made an unwarranted assumption here . . .

Perhaps.  But if it wasn't a medical professional, then it (a) was a highly unreliable noncogniscento, if it did indeed involve a first hand observation of the patient or (b) a gossipy crank, whatever his ecclesiastical position. 

[Scott Lloyd]

4 hours ago, Daniel Peterson said:

*  I'll be speaking at three public Mormon/Muslim events in the Phoenix area this coming weekend, and at a Mormon-related conference in Göteborg, Sweden during the summer.

My missionary son is serving in Göteborg even as we speak.

If he hasn't been transferred by this summer (and I hope he hasn't; he loves it there), I hope he has a chance to encounter you when you're in Göteborg. Do have details on the conference? (You can email me with a response, if you like.)

 

 

[Scott Lloyd]

5 hours ago, Daniel Peterson said:

I've forgotten (if I ever knew) how to use the quote function here.  Sorry. 

Click on the "Quote" link in the lower left corner of the post you are responding to. Then, starting at the top of the post, define and cut all except the part you are immediately responding to. Then, type your response.

If you want to respond to any of the rest of the post, paste in what you just cut. Then, define the next portion you want to respond to and make it into a quote by clicking on the quotation-marks icon at the top of your post.

Just after that, type in your response.

Proceed in this manner through the rest of the post, defining and quoting the respective parts of the post you wish to respond to as you enter you interlinear comments. Just delete the portions you don't want to respond to.

That's how I do it anyway; perhaps others have better ways.

 

Edited April 8, 2016 by Scott Lloyd

[Rain]

4 hours ago, Daniel Peterson said:

There's also a Friday noon event at the LDS Institute in Tempe, at ASU.  And a Saturday evening event at the same location.

Thank you.  I should have checked right back.  Today's one would have been the easiest for me to go to.  I'll have to see about the others

[Daniel Peterson]

The event in Sweden will be on or around 18 June, I believe.  I don't have precise details yet, but I'm going to be in the from the 16th through the 19th or 20th.  I think I'm also going to be speaking to Institute students there at some point during my stay.

[consiglieri]

5 hours ago, juliann said:

 I don't appreciate the undeserved implication that I am attributing false positions, Robert. 

Nor I, actually.

[consiglieri]

3 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

You have smeared the LDS Church with the authoritarian label, Counselor, even though it has a theology which strongly rejects that in favor of the Holy Spirit, and which has the concomitant advantage of dependence on (1) councils, and on (2) decentralization.

 

The words LDS Church and decentralization should not even be mentioned in the same sentence.

 

This is a joke.

 

Right?

[mfbukowski]

3 minutes ago, consiglieri said:

The words LDS Church and decentralization should not even be mentioned in the same sentence.

 

This is a joke.

 

Right?

How are we supposed to know if you are joking.?

How much experience have you had with the church outside of Utah?

It is very decentralized.

Each stake is a mini church in itself.  This has been discussed many times here- for the better or the worse.  Virtually every post about botched disciplinary councils supports that with strong evidence.

[Daniel Peterson]

2 hours ago, Rain said:

Thank you.  I should have checked right back.  Today's one would have been the easiest for me to go to.  I'll have to see about the others

It's NEXT Friday.   Not today.  And then Saturday and Sunday thereafter.  

[cdowis]

3 hours ago, Daniel Peterson said:

The event in Sweden will be on or around 18 June, I believe. 

I understand the church in Sweden has had a rough time of it.  When you get back, please tell us how things are going there now.