Adam and Eve - blessings for disobedience

[ksfisher]

1 minute ago, theplains said:

 

From God's perspective in LDS theology,  was it his desired will that Adam and Eve become 
disobedient?

 

Adam and Eve were presented with a choice by God.  If they wanted to stay in the Garden and have everything stay the way it was, then they needed to not eat of the fruit.

If they wanted to progress and move beyond  the Garden, with all the attendant blessings and hardships, including death, then partaking of the fruit was essential. 

The choice was theirs, as was the consequences.

[JLHPROF]

4 hours ago, ksfisher said:

Adam and Eve were presented with a choice by God.  If they wanted to stay in the Garden and have everything stay the way it was, then they needed to not eat of the fruit.

If they wanted to progress and move beyond  the Garden, with all the attendant blessings and hardships, including death, then partaking of the fruit was essential. 

The choice was theirs, as was the consequences.

True.  But I'm not sure that they really had a choice.  The work of God cannot be thwarted, and making that choice would have stopped the work of God dead in its tracks.

[ksfisher]

23 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

True.  But I'm not sure that they really had a choice.  The work of God cannot be thwarted, and making that choice would have stopped the work of God dead in its tracks.

But the will of God can be thwarted by agency.  God desires you and I to return and partake of eternal life with him.  We can choose to thwart God's will in this by disobeying his commandments and refusing exaltation.

This scripture also reinforces the idea that Adam and Eve had a choice in the Garden:

Moses 7

32 The Lord said unto Enoch: Behold these thy brethren; they are the workmanship of mine own hands, and I gave unto them their knowledge, in the day I created them; and in the Garden of Eden, gave I unto man his agency;

As well as thins one:

Moses 3

17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it, nevertheless, thou mayest choose for thyself, for it is given unto thee; but, remember that I forbid it, for in the day thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

[JLHPROF]

2 minutes ago, ksfisher said:

But the will of God can be thwarted by agency.  God desires you and I to return and partake of eternal life with him.  We can choose to thwart God's will in this by disobeying his commandments and refusing exaltation.

This scripture also reinforces the idea that Adam and Eve had a choice in the Garden:

Moses 7

32 The Lord said unto Enoch: Behold these thy brethren; they are the workmanship of mine own hands, and I gave unto them their knowledge, in the day I created them; and in the Garden of Eden, gave I unto man his agency;

As well as thins one:

Moses 3

17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it, nevertheless, thou mayest choose for thyself, for it is given unto thee; but, remember that I forbid it, for in the day thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

I believe they had agency.  Just as I believe Joseph had agency to practice plural marriage.

But God's plan was happening one way or the other.  Man was always going to fall and need a Savior.  Adam and Eve had agency, but they weren't stopping that plan.
Joseph had agency to not live plural marriage, but God was going to restore it one way or the other, even if that meant replacing Joseph with another prophet.

[mfbukowski]

7 hours ago, ksfisher said:

Adam and Eve were presented with a choice by God.  If they wanted to stay in the Garden and have everything stay the way it was, then they needed to not eat of the fruit.

If they wanted to progress and move beyond  the Garden, with all the attendant blessings and hardships, including death, then partaking of the fruit was essential. 

The choice was theirs, as was the consequences.

Agree.

It was not God's "desire" that they be disobedient, yet the fact that they were played directly in to his plan.

It's like the old argument that if God knows what you will do, you cannot do otherwise and so your choice is determined and so you do not deserve praise or blame for the choice.

That's not the case.  They made their choice independently and God knew what they would do, and what consequences would naturally follow.

If I am holding a pencil and let go, I know the pencil will fall, but I do not make it fall- I did not create gravity..  We can predict the weather, but we do not make the weather, when the forecast is correct.  The hurricane is going to happen if we predict it correctly or not, but we might be able to use the high tide to float a ship which ran aground. 

God's forecast of what they would do, was of course perfectly correct, but that does not mean he "desired" them to transgress, he just knew that they would, like a master strategist in a chess game or a battle knows what they enemy will do, and uses that knowledge to his advantage.

[Maedros]

On 3/24/2016 at 5:14 AM, bluebell said:

Eve transgressed but Adam didn't?

I would say: they both transgressed since Adam knew full-well that he was forbidden to partake the fruit so I'd rather say: Eve was beguiled and Adam was not but they both transgressed.

[Maedros]

4 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

Agree.

It was not God's "desire" that they be disobedient, yet the fact that they were played directly in to his plan.

It's like the old argument that if God knows what you will do, you cannot do otherwise and so your choice is determined and so you do not deserve praise or blame for the choice.

That's not the case.  They made their choice independently and God knew what they would do, and what consequences would naturally follow.

If I am holding a pencil and let go, I know the pencil will fall, but I do not make it fall- I did not create gravity..  We can predict the weather, but we do not make the weather, when the forecast is correct.  The hurricane is going to happen if we predict it correctly or not, but we might be able to use the high tide to float a ship which ran aground. 

God's forecast of what they would do, was of course perfectly correct, but that does not mean he "desired" them to transgress, he just knew that they would, like a master strategist in a chess game or a battle knows what they enemy will do, and uses that knowledge to his advantage.

Reminds me of something Master Oogway said: "One often meets his destiny on the road he takes to avoid it." Which I take to mean that no matter what road you take: it will lead to your destiny whether that be good or evil; so in satan's case his plan to destroy man leads to his own (eventual) destruction and to the salvation of man. Adam and Eve thinking that they will be punished for their transgression actually fulfilled their purpose by their disobedient act and received even greater blessings. Illuvatar speaking to Melkor after he tried to disrupt the music of the Ainur said:  “And thou, Melkor, shalt see that no theme may be played that hath not its uttermost source in me, nor can any alter the music in my despite. For he that attempteth this shall prove but mine instrument in the devising of things more wonderful, which he himself hath not imagined.” 
― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Silmarillion

[ksfisher]

10 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

Agree.

It was not God's "desire" that they be disobedient, yet the fact that they were played directly in to his plan.

It's like the old argument that if God knows what you will do, you cannot do otherwise and so your choice is determined and so you do not deserve praise or blame for the choice.

That's not the case.  They made their choice independently and God knew what they would do, and what consequences would naturally follow.

If I am holding a pencil and let go, I know the pencil will fall, but I do not make it fall- I did not create gravity..  We can predict the weather, but we do not make the weather, when the forecast is correct.  The hurricane is going to happen if we predict it correctly or not, but we might be able to use the high tide to float a ship which ran aground. 

God's forecast of what they would do, was of course perfectly correct, but that does not mean he "desired" them to transgress, he just knew that they would, like a master strategist in a chess game or a battle knows what they enemy will do, and uses that knowledge to his advantage.

I like your assessment, except I wouldn't call the choice Adam and Eve made in the Garden disobedience.  The way I think of it God made a couple of if/then statements to them.

Choice A: if you want to stay in the Garden then don't do this.

Choice B: if you feel you've been in the Garden long enough and want to move on with the plan then do this.

Your choice. 

God, as you say, was smart enough to put two people there who he knew would make the right choice.

[Tacenda]

I thought some on this board thought Adam and Eve was an allegory, or symbolism in the temple.  What is a girl to believe these days?

[ksfisher]

Just now, Tacenda said:

I thought some on this board thought Adam and Eve was an allegory, or symbolism in the temple.  What is a girl to believe these days?

The story of Adam and Eve as taught in the temple is symbolic.  All who are in the company are invited to see themselves in the place of Adam and Eve.

[CV75]

18 hours ago, theplains said:

By pre-mortal state, I thought you were referring to their celestial home.  But if your context 
is the Garden of Eden, then yes, they had this pre-mortal estate. I believe Adam and Eve had a 
physical body and that they ate physical food in the garden before the Fall.

From God's perspective in LDS theology,  was it his desired will that Adam and Eve become 
disobedient?

We might have different ideas on whether procreation is a covenant but I believe God did not 
bless Adam and Eve with the power to procreate when they disobeyed him. 

Besides Adam and Eve, were there other people which God blessed for disobedience?

Thanks,
Jim

His desired will was that they exercise their agency to follow their desired wills, and that by so doing, learn to choose and obey Him, or to submit to His will. Should they have disobeyed in that learning process, so be it; He is a kind and merciful God, having prepared their Redemption from before the foundation of the world. As I mentioned before, in this way He blesses us all for (rather, despite) our disobedience, but had we not come into a fallen earth as imperfect beings He would not be blessing us as He has at all.

Do you consider procreation a blessing? See Genesis 1:22, 27-28.

Under what covenant do non-human life forms procreate? How do human beings procreate when they haven’t made a covenant?

When do you think God blessed Adam and Eve with the power to procreate; when did they first exercise it; and, when did they enter the marriage covenant?

In what state were the plants and herbs created before they grew? In what state was Christ foreordained before the foundation of the world? (1 Peter 1: 18-20; John 17:24) In what state was the “breath of life” before it entered Adam to make his physical form a living soul? (Genesis 2:7).

[mfbukowski]

2 hours ago, ksfisher said:

I like your assessment, except I wouldn't call the choice Adam and Eve made in the Garden disobedience.  The way I think of it God made a couple of if/then statements to them.

Choice A: if you want to stay in the Garden then don't do this.

Choice B: if you feel you've been in the Garden long enough and want to move on with the plan then do this.

Your choice. 

God, as you say, was smart enough to put two people there who he knew would make the right choice.

Well yes, but it was up to them to figure out the consequences, which apparently Eve was able to do.  It's not as if the choices were as clear as you portray them.  The story as told is that Adam clearly did not "get" why  Eve ate the fruit at first until she explained it to him.  Eve saw immediately that it was the way things were supposed to go. And so yes, she chose the consequences which were just.

It was in itself a sacrifice, the kind of choice with trade-offs we make every day.  If I want a college degree, I will have to endure some "pain"- it is going to cost a lot of money and be a lot of work, but afterwards, I will have a better life (hopefully!)

So then God says essentially, "Ok Eve you chose door number 2- you get the consequences- but I will send you a savior which will make it all worthwhile in the end".

It is not like she got punished individually for being a woman, she is actually the one smart enough to figure it out, so she gets both the credit and the blame for "pushing Adam through college" to create a modern, but poor analogy.  She chose the harder route with the greater reward.  "There was no other way"

[ksfisher]

17 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

Well yes, but it was up to them to figure out the consequences, which apparently Eve was able to do.  It's not as if the choices were as clear as you portray them.  The story as told is that Adam clearly did not "get" why  Eve ate the fruit at first until she explained it to him.  Eve saw immediately that it was the way things were supposed to go. And so yes, she chose the consequences which were just.

 

I did purposely boil the story down considerably. 

[Guest]

On March 23, 2016 at 7:09 PM, theplains said:

I had a question on the January 2004 Ensign article "Book of Mormon Principles: Favored of the Lord."

"The God of heaven has never made covenants that are independent of obedience and righteousness."

This seems to be a contradiction in what the teaching manual Gospel Principles says; that God 
bestowed great blessings on Adam and Eve for their disobedience.

Is this the first time God ever gave people blessings for disobeying Him or are there other
examples?

Thanks,
Jim

Suffering from disobedience helps us learn to be obedient. Just as suffering from illness helps to enjoy life more. "There must be opposition in all things". God knows we will err, which is why he gives is the "light of Christ" to learn from it. 

[halconero]

3 hours ago, Tacenda said:

I thought some on this board thought Adam and Eve was an allegory, or symbolism in the temple.  What is a girl to believe these days?

Why not all the of the above?

I'm complicated.

[mfbukowski]

On 3/29/2016 at 8:24 AM, Tacenda said:

I thought some on this board thought Adam and Eve was an allegory, or symbolism in the temple.  What is a girl to believe these days?

As always, whatever the spirit teaches you.

[theplains]

On 28/03/2016 at 5:03 PM, ksfisher said:

Adam and Eve were presented with a choice by God.  If they wanted to stay in the Garden and have everything stay the way it was, then they needed to not eat of the fruit.

If they wanted to progress and move beyond  the Garden, with all the attendant blessings and hardships, including death, then partaking of the fruit was essential.

What blessings did they have in the Garden before the fall?  What gives you the idea that they 
knew they would leave the Garden if they disobeyed God?

Thanks,
Jim

[theplains]

On 29/03/2016 at 9:55 PM, JLHPROF said:

I believe they had agency.  Just as I believe Joseph had agency to practice plural marriage.

But God's plan was happening one way or the other.  Man was always going to fall and need a Savior.  Adam and Eve had agency, but they weren't stopping that plan.
Joseph had agency to not live plural marriage, but God was going to restore it one way or the other, even if that meant replacing Joseph with another prophet.

Do you believe it was God's desired will or permissive will that Adam and Eve disobey?

Thanks,
Jim

[theplains]

On 29/03/2016 at 11:42 AM, CV75 said:

Do you consider procreation a blessing? See Genesis 1:22, 27-28.

Under what covenant do non-human life forms procreate? How do human beings procreate when they haven’t made a covenant?

When do you think God blessed Adam and Eve with the power to procreate; when did they first exercise it; and, when did they enter the marriage covenant?

In what state were the plants and herbs created before they grew? In what state was Christ foreordained before the foundation of the world? (1 Peter 1: 18-20; John 17:24) In what state was the “breath of life” before it entered Adam to make his physical form a living soul? (Genesis 2:7).

Yes. They were blessed with the ability to procreate before the fall. Without the ability, they 
could not obey the commandment.  God also told Adam to tend the garden. This was based on his 
ability to do so.  He was also told to name the animals. This was based on his ability to do 
so.

You could say that the mutual choice to engage in any activity to result in procreation is an 
act (or covenant) between the consenting parties. In a Christian union, God is also part of the 
marriage.  For non-believers, He is not.

Adam and Eve were blessed with the power to procreate prior to them being given the command to 
be fruitful and multiply.  They exercised it after they were evicted from the garden. It is not 
explained why they did not choose to have children in the Garden before the fall.  They entered 
the marriage covenant in the Garden before the fall.  

There were no plants and animals on the earth before they were created on earth.

I don't understand your question about "in what state Christ was foreordained".

I don't understand your question about "in what state the breath of life" was in".

Thanks,
Jim

 

[theplains]

On 29/03/2016 at 2:23 PM, Pa Pa said:

Suffering from disobedience helps us learn to be obedient. Just as suffering from illness helps to enjoy life more. "There must be opposition in all things". God knows we will err, which is why he gives is the "light of Christ" to learn from it. 

Do you believe God wants you to be disobedient so you can learn?

Thanks,
Jim

[JLHPROF]

16 minutes ago, theplains said:

Do you believe it was God's desired will or permissive will that Adam and Eve disobey?

Thanks,
Jim

I think it was his plan all along.  So I suppose that would be "desired will" more than permissive.

The pattern is laid out clearly.

ABRAHAM describes the planning

Abraham 4:27 So the Gods went down to organize man in their own image, in the image of the Gods to form they him, male and female to form they them.
28 And the Gods said: We will bless them. And the Gods said: We will cause them to be fruitful and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it, and to have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.
Abraham 5:3 And the Gods concluded upon the seventh time, because that on the seventh time they would rest from all their works which they (the Gods) counseled among themselves to form; and sanctified it. And thus were their decisions at the time that they counseled among themselves to form the heavens and the earth.

MOSES describes the execution of events

Moses 1:39 For behold, this is my work and my glory—to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man.

Moses 2:27 And I, God, created man in mine own image, in the image of mine Only Begotten created I him; male and female created I them.
28 And I, God, blessed them, and said unto them: Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it, and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.

Moses 5:10 And in that day Adam blessed God and was filled, and began to prophesy concerning all the families of the earth, saying: Blessed be the name of God, for because of my transgression my eyes are opened, and in this life I shall have joy, and again in the flesh I shall see God.
11 And Eve, his wife, heard all these things and was glad, saying: Were it not for our transgression we never should have had seed, and never should have known good and evil, and the joy of our redemption, and the eternal life which God giveth unto all the obedient.

[Guest]

29 minutes ago, theplains said:

Do you believe God wants you to be disobedient so you can learn?

Thanks,
Jim

I am sure He would rather us learn from the mistakes of others. But knowing that "all sin and come short of the glory of God", he allows us to learn in this way. The most important thing is that we learn. The difference with Adam and Eve, they could choose for themselves and by so doing made us all possible. 

[CV75]

15 hours ago, theplains said:

Yes. They were blessed with the ability to procreate before the fall. Without the ability, they 
could not obey the commandment.  God also told Adam to tend the garden. This was based on his 
ability to do so.  He was also told to name the animals. This was based on his ability to do 
so.

You could say that the mutual choice to engage in any activity to result in procreation is an 
act (or covenant) between the consenting parties. In a Christian union, God is also part of the 
marriage.  For non-believers, He is not.

Adam and Eve were blessed with the power to procreate prior to them being given the command to 
be fruitful and multiply.  They exercised it after they were evicted from the garden. It is not 
explained why they did not choose to have children in the Garden before the fall.  They entered 
the marriage covenant in the Garden before the fall.  

There were no plants and animals on the earth before they were created on earth.

I don't understand your question about "in what state Christ was foreordained".

I don't understand your question about "in what state the breath of life" was in".

Thanks,
Jim

 

Are you saying that the pre-mortal Adam and Eve had the ability but willfully disobeyed the commandment to procreate while in Eden? And that they were thus willfully disobedient in fulfilling their marriage covenant? Adam did dress and keep the garden and named the animals, but this was before the arrival of Eve and their marriage (unless you believe Genesis does not adhere to any particular order of events). Was all other life besides Adam and Eve procreating? Do you see a difference between ability and potential?

If an act between consenting parties constitutes a covenant, and the procreative act between non-consenting parties is not a covenant, what were Adam and Eve doing as non-consenting adults? But a covenant is not the act, but the pledge to act, and the pledge is fulfilled when that act is done. The pledge is administered to consenting parties by proper authority. Are you saying that Christ was disobedient to the New Covenant until He was punished? It seems that punishment and blessing do not always follow disobedience and obedience, respectively, from a shallow and narrow perspective (but God’s is eternal).

How would you characterize the existence of a creation that has not yet appeared physically on the earth (Genesis 2:4-5)? Christ existed before He appeared in the flesh in order to be foreordained as the Christ (1 Peter 1: 19-21); how would you characterize Him before He arrived on earth? And the rest of us who were born into bondage and corruption, and who God also foreknew and called (Romans 8: 21-22; 29-30; Ephesians 1:4-5)?

[theplains]

On 30/03/2016 at 6:22 PM, Pa Pa said:

I am sure He would rather us learn from the mistakes of others. But knowing that "all sin and come short of the glory of God", he allows us to learn in this way. The most important thing is that we learn. The difference with Adam and Eve, they could choose for themselves and by so doing made us all possible. 

I understand God allowing things to happen, but do you believe God wanted Adam and Eve to learn in this way?

Thanks,
Jim

[theplains]

On 31/03/2016 at 9:27 AM, CV75 said:

Are you saying that the pre-mortal Adam and Eve had the ability but willfully disobeyed the commandment to procreate while in Eden? And that they were thus willfully disobedient in fulfilling their marriage covenant? Adam did dress and keep the garden and named the animals, but this was before the arrival of Eve and their marriage (unless you believe Genesis does not adhere to any particular order of events). Was all other life besides Adam and Eve procreating? Do you see a difference between ability and potential?

 

If an act between consenting parties constitutes a covenant, and the procreative act between non-consenting parties is not a covenant, what were Adam and Eve doing as non-consenting adults? But a covenant is not the act, but the pledge to act, and the pledge is fulfilled when that act is done. The pledge is administered to consenting parties by proper authority. Are you saying that Christ was disobedient to the New Covenant until He was punished? It seems that punishment and blessing do not always follow disobedience and obedience, respectively, from a shallow and narrow perspective (but God’s is eternal).

 

How would you characterize the existence of a creation that has not yet appeared physically on the earth (Genesis 2:4-5)? Christ existed before He appeared in the flesh in order to be foreordained as the Christ (1 Peter 1: 19-21); how would you characterize Him before He arrived on earth? And the rest of us who were born into bondage and corruption, and who God also foreknew and called (Romans 8: 21-22; 29-30; Ephesians 1:4-5)?

 

I believe that Adam and Eve had the ability to procreate before the Fall. When God gave them to
be fruitful and multiply, I don't see that he set a time limit on when they were to start
having children. For all we know, Cain may have been conceived in the garden and then born
outside the garden. We just don't know.  We are not told how long they remained in the garden
before the Fall.  From what I understand of LDS theology, it seems no animals and plants were
procreating before the fall. Thus, they had no ability and no potential until Adam fell.  But I
don't believe this.

As far as consent goes, we do not have any insight into what sexual relations Adam and Eve had
in the garden.

I don't understand what you mean when you ask if Christ was disobedient to the New Covenant
until he was punished. Please explain.

Plants and animals did not exist on the earth or somewhere else before they appeared physically
on earth. 

I believe Jesus is the Eternal God; the God who never progressed into becoming a God. From what
I have read in an LDS institute manual, Jesus progressed in the spirit world until he attained
some level of knowledge which ranked him as a God (i.e. he became a God).

Thanks,
Jim