Adam and Eve - blessings for disobedience

[CV75]

11 hours ago, theplains said:

I believe that Adam and Eve had the ability to procreate before the Fall. When God gave them to
be fruitful and multiply, I don't see that he set a time limit on when they were to start
having children. For all we know, Cain may have been conceived in the garden and then born
outside the garden. We just don't know.  We are not told how long they remained in the garden
before the Fall.  From what I understand of LDS theology, it seems no animals and plants were
procreating before the fall. Thus, they had no ability and no potential until Adam fell.  But I
don't believe this.

As far as consent goes, we do not have any insight into what sexual relations Adam and Eve had
in the garden.

I don't understand what you mean when you ask if Christ was disobedient to the New Covenant
until he was punished. Please explain.

Plants and animals did not exist on the earth or somewhere else before they appeared physically
on earth. 

I believe Jesus is the Eternal God; the God who never progressed into becoming a God. From what
I have read in an LDS institute manual, Jesus progressed in the spirit world until he attained
some level of knowledge which ranked him as a God (i.e. he became a God).

Thanks,
Jim

You say, “Plants and animals did not exist on the earth or somewhere else before they appeared physically on earth.” But the scriptures I shared show the plants were created before they grew on the earth and that God knew and foreordained Christ and the rest of us “before the foundation of the world.” So I do not understand what you mean when you say they did not exist before they appeared on the earth.

I think you answered my question about Christ by saying that Adam and Eve kept their marriage covenant all along, and obeyed the command to multiply and replenish the earth after they were punished for partaking of the forbidden fruit (the Fall). This tells me they were likewise blessed in and for their obedience in multiplying and replenishing the earth (Psalm 127:3). Likewise, Jesus kept the New Covenant all along, and obeyed His Father’s will to ensure spiritual rebirth the children of Adam and Eve, through His atoning suffering and punishment in the flesh for our disobedience. Christ too was thus blessed by the Father (see His Intercessory Prayer).

[cdowis]

I believe that Adam and Eve had the ability to procreate before the Fall.  

I agree for the reasons you pointed out.  They indeed had the physical capacity, but were like small children without the natural desire or urges.  After the Fall, they then discovered their nakedness.

Edited April 2, 2016 by cdowis

[Guest]

14 hours ago, theplains said:

I understand God allowing things to happen, but do you believe God wanted Adam and Eve to learn in this way?

Thanks,
Jim

There transgression brought about mortality and all who live, as he knew would come to pass. His anger was over the fact that they did not grow to Spiritual maturity and choose for themselves, but it came about through the acts of Satan who sought to destroy God's plans. 

[theplains]

On 02/04/2016 at 9:59 AM, CV75 said:

You say, “Plants and animals did not exist on the earth or somewhere else before they appeared physically on earth.” But the scriptures I shared show the plants were created before they grew on the earth and that God knew and foreordained Christ and the rest of us “before the foundation of the world.” So I do not understand what you mean when you say they did not exist before they appeared on the earth.

I think you answered my question about Christ by saying that Adam and Eve kept their marriage covenant all along, and obeyed the command to multiply and replenish the earth after they were punished for partaking of the forbidden fruit (the Fall). This tells me they were likewise blessed in and for their obedience in multiplying and replenishing the earth (Psalm 127:3). Likewise, Jesus kept the New Covenant all along, and obeyed His Father’s will to ensure spiritual rebirth the children of Adam and Eve, through His atoning suffering and punishment in the flesh for our disobedience. Christ too was thus blessed by the Father (see His Intercessory Prayer).

I don't seem to recall the scripture which slows the plants and animals existed somewhere
before they were created on earth. Would you share again.

I don't believe Adam and Eve were blessed with the ability to procreate when they
disobeyed God. Like eating and doing other tasks in the Garden before fall, they exhibited
their ability to perform them without being blessed for disobedience. Likewise, we can
assume they were born with the ability to understand and speak with God without the need
for them to go to some form of kindergarten.  When they were told to be fruitful and
multiply, they didn't say "Ah, what does that mean?" or "What does eat mean and what are
trees?"  But I can understand the LDS position that this ability came after disobedience
since it is in the Book of Mormon.  I don't believe that Adam and Eve were ever spirit
babies who matured in some celestial home before coming to earth in physical bodies.

Thanks,
Jim

[theplains]

On 02/04/2016 at 0:46 PM, Pa Pa said:

There transgression brought about mortality and all who live, as he knew would come to pass. His anger was over the fact that they did not grow to Spiritual maturity and choose for themselves, but it came about through the acts of Satan who sought to destroy God's plans. 

Are you saying Adam and Eve did not choose for themselves when they disobeyed God?

Jim

[Guest]

Just now, theplains said:

Are you saying Adam and Eve did not choose for themselves when they disobeyed God?

Jim

Their "choice" was accelerated via deception, the worst among them half truths by a being set upon their destruction. 

[theplains]

22 minutes ago, Pa Pa said:

Their "choice" was accelerated via deception, the worst among them half truths by a being set upon their destruction. 

Do you believe they chose wisely in disobeying God?

Thanks,

Jim

[CV75]

37 minutes ago, theplains said:

I don't seem to recall the scripture which slows the plants and animals existed somewhere before they were created on earth. Would you share again.

I'll ask you to go back and read those posts with those scriptures. The scriptural text refers to plants, Christ and the rest of us, specifically.

40 minutes ago, theplains said:

I don't believe that Adam and Eve were ever spirit babies who matured in some celestial home before coming to earth in physical bodies.

CFR that is an LDS teaching.

41 minutes ago, theplains said:

I don't believe Adam and Eve were blessed with the ability to procreate when they
disobeyed God.

I don't think I understand what you mean. Please explain. Are you saying LDS believe they were blessed with the ability as a reward for disobeying God (CFR that is an LDS teaching)? Or are you saying they were blessed under some other circumstance?

48 minutes ago, theplains said:

Like eating and doing other tasks in the Garden before fall, they exhibited
their ability to perform them without being blessed for disobedience.

How did they exhibit the ability to procreate while yet in Eden ? Your previous comments about the timing of Cain's conception in Eden don't agree with Genesis 4:1.

[Guest]

7 hours ago, theplains said:

Do you believe they chose wisely in disobeying God?

Thanks,

Jim

I think so...otherwise there would be no mortality and Christ would be necessary as a Savior to the two beingd who would still in the Garden, having never transgressed. 

[theplains]

On 04/04/2016 at 3:53 PM, CV75 said:

I'll ask you to go back and read those posts with those scriptures. The scriptural text refers to plants, Christ and the rest of us, specifically.

CFR that is an LDS teaching.

I don't think I understand what you mean. Please explain. Are you saying LDS believe they were blessed with the ability as a reward for disobeying God (CFR that is an LDS teaching)? Or are you saying they were blessed under some other circumstance?

How did they exhibit the ability to procreate while yet in Eden ? Your previous comments about the timing of Cain's conception in Eden don't agree with Genesis 4:1.

Regarding Adam and Eve as spirit babies - I assume from LDS teaching that they were born to Heavenly 
Mother and Father as spirit babies instead of spirit adults.  Are you offended by the term "spirit babies?"

"Only resurrected and glorified beings can become parents of spirit offspring. Only such exalted 
souls have reached maturity in the appointed course of eternal life; and the spirits born to them 
in the eternal worlds will pass in due sequence through the several stages or estates by which the 
glorified parents have attained exaltation" (Ensign, April 2002, p. 18).

"We worship the great God who created the universe. He is our Father in heaven. We came
into being because of him; we are his spirit children. We dwelt with him in a premortal
life in a family relationship. We knew him as intimately and as well as we know our mortal
fathers in this sphere of existence” (Eternal Family Teacher Manual).

LDS teaching says great blessings occurred as a result of the Fall. This is in chapter 6 of 
Gospel Principles. Also taught in other places:

"Before the fall there was no procreation. I repeat, for thus saith the Holy Word, before the 
fall there was no procreation. Adam and Eve, in their Edenic state, could not have children, nor, 
as we shall see, could any form of life when first placed on the newly created paradisiacal earth"
(Source: http://speeches.byu.edu/?act=viewitem&id=598)

"God, with his foreknowledge and his acquaintance with his children in their premortal
state, knew that some would succumb to the wiles and temptations of Lucifer, that many
would fall by the wayside. It was also known by the Father before they came here that of
their own free will and choice Adam and Eve would partake of the forbidden fruit, which
would open the way for God’s spirit children to take upon themselves mortality." 
(source: https://www.lds.org/general-conference/1974/10/a-testimony-of-christ?lang=eng

Since they could perform other tasks that God gave them (talking, understanding, eating, etc), 
I would say they also had the ability to procreate. You seem to equate "no childbirth in
the garden" with "could not have children".

From the LDS teaching above, it looks like nothing could initially procreate in God's creation.

Thanks,
Jim