D&C 132 (Revelation on Polygamy)

[Keq82]

The overview to D&C 132 states the following concerning the doctrines/principles of polygamy that were revealed to Joseph Smith in 1831:

 

"Although the revelation was recorded in 1843, it is evident from the historical records that the doctrines and principles involved in this revelation had been known by the Prophet since 1831."

 

As it pertains to the 1831 revelation spoken of above, it was primarily focused on marrying Lamanites (American Indians) for the purpose of making them "white" and "delightsome." 

 

The 1831 revelation states that:

 

 “Verily I say unto you that the wisdom of man in his fallen state, knoweth not the purposes and the privileges of my holy priesthood. but ye shall know when ye receive a fulness by reason of the anointing: For it is my will, that in time, ye should take unto you wives of the Lamanites and Nephites, that their posterity may become white, delightsome and Just, for even now their females are more virtuous than the gentiles.”

 

http://www.withoutend.org/polygamy-revelations/

 

In some ways, it would appear that the reference to the 1831 revelation in D&C 132 is a way to cover for Joseph Smith, due to the fact the he and others were practicing polygamy well before the 1843 revelation.  However, the 1831 revelation seems to be completly out of tune with what is revealed in D&C 132.  

 

Are we to believe the initial revelation Joseph Smith receieved concerning polygamy in 1831 was for the purpose of making American Indians white? 

 

 

[thesometimesaint]

Two separate issues. Please stop conflating them.

[Keq82]

The 1831 revelation I referenced is in the overview to D&C 132.  So, the 1843 revelation is, in fact, linked to this 1831 revelation, according to D&C 132.  These are not separate issues...please expound on how I conflated them.  

[Keq82]

Here is the overview as listed in D&C 132:

"Revelation given through Joseph Smith the Prophet, at Nauvoo, Illinois, recorded July 12, 1843, relating to the new and everlasting covenant, including the eternity of the marriage covenant, as also plurality of wives. HC 5: 501–507. Although the revelation was recorded in 1843, it is evident from the historical records that the doctrines and principles involved in this revelation had been known by the Prophet since 1831."

 

 

 

[ALarson]

19 minutes ago, thesometimesaint said:

Two separate issues. Please stop conflating them.

It's not really two separate issues as this is the revelation referred to when stating "this revelation had been known by the Prophet since 1831" (as far as I know, there wasn't another one.)

But marrying the Lamanites and them becoming "white and delightsome", is a separate issue,  if that's what you mean (?).

I think it wasn't until 30 years later that this revelation was revealed or discussed (in a letter from W.W. Phelps to Brigham Young in 1861).

[Keq82]

1 minute ago, ALarson said:

It's not really two separate issues as this is the revelation referred to when stating "this revelation had been known by the Prophet since 1831" (as far as I know, there wasn't another one.)

But marrying the Lamanites and them becoming "white and delightsome", is a separate issue,  if that's what you mean (?).

I think it wasn't until 30 years later that this revelation was revealed or discussed (in a letter from W.W. Phelps to Brigham Young in 1861).

Correct.  It was in 1861 that this letter from Phelps to Brigham Young was revealed.  If they list this 1831 revelation in the intro to D&C 132, it is not a separate issue. 

If the 1831 revelation to make American Indians white is a separate issue, why is it listed in D&C 132 in the first place?  

[Wanderer7]

1 hour ago, Keq82 said:

Correct.  It was in 1861 that this letter from Phelps to Brigham Young was revealed.  If they list this 1831 revelation in the intro to D&C 132, it is not a separate issue. 

If the 1831 revelation to make American Indians white is a separate issue, why is it listed in D&C 132 in the first place?  

I'm not sure I understand your reference to anything being listed in D&C 132 involving Lamanites.

As for the Phelps writing, a recollection 30 years later does not constitute a legitimate revelation or its purpose.

[Keq82]

12 minutes ago, Wanderer7 said:

I'm not sure I understand your reference to anything being listed in D&C 132 involving Lamanites.

As for the Phelps writing, a recollection 30 years later does not constitute a legitimate revelation or its purpose.

This is what the summary of D&C 132 states:

"Although the revelation was recorded in 1843, it is evident from the historical records that the doctrines and principles involved in this revelation had been known by the Prophet since 1831."

The 1831 revelation it is referring to is about the Phelps letter revelation, correct?

If it doesn't constitute a legitmate revelation, then why is it listed in the summary of D&C 132?  

[JAHS]

11 minutes ago, Keq82 said:

"Although the revelation was recorded in 1843, it is evident from the historical records that the doctrines and principles involved in this revelation had been known by the Prophet since 1831."

The 1831 revelation it is referring to is about the Phelps letter revelation, correct?

I don't see where it calls Joseph's previous knowledge about polygamy a "revelation"; it just says that the prophet was aware of the principle since 1831. The years are coincidental (1831), but there's no direct evidence that the D&C 132 summary comes from this 1831 letter.

Edited March 18, 2016 by JAHS

[cinepro]

The heading isn't saying that there was a revelation in 1831.  It is saying that the "doctrines and principles" had "been known" since 1831.  What was Joseph Smith doing in 1831?  This.

So I think the common LDS reading of that heading would be that it was Joseph's work on the JST that prompted him to ponder the role of polygamy in the restoration (to the degree that LDS read that heading and think about it at all).

[ALarson]

5 minutes ago, JAHS said:

I don't see where it calls Joseph's previous knowledge about polygamy a "revelation"; it just says that the prophet was aware of the principle since 1831. The years are coincidental (1831), but there's no direct evidence that the D&C 132 summary comes from this 1831 letter.

It refers to it as a "revelation" in the church essay:

Quote

The revelation on plural marriage was not written down until 1843, but its early verses suggest that part of it emerged from Joseph Smith’s study of the Old Testament in 1831. People who knew Joseph well later stated he received the revelation about that time.

https://www.lds.org/topics/plural-marriage-in-kirtland-and-nauvoo?lang=eng#4

[JAHS]

3 minutes ago, ALarson said:

People who knew Joseph well later stated he received the revelation about that time.

I still don't see how the Phelps letter referred to is definitely the source for this "revelation".

[cinepro]

15 minutes ago, ALarson said:

It refers to it as a "revelation" in the church essay:

https://www.lds.org/topics/plural-marriage-in-kirtland-and-nauvoo?lang=eng#4

Well there you go.  I guess now we get to discuss how authoritative the essays are compared to the section headings....

[ALarson]

8 minutes ago, JAHS said:

I still don't see how the Phelps letter referred to is definitely the source for this "revelation".

Yes, I'd like to see more of what is written about that too.  I think the Phelp's letter is used as a source that a revelation took place (but iirc, the letter doesn't reference polygamy and it wasn't tied to polygamy for a few more years after 1861).  

[Keq82]

16 minutes ago, ALarson said:

Yes, I'd like to see more of what is written about that too.  I think the Phelp's letter is used as a source that a revelation took place (but iirc, the letter doesn't reference polygamy and it wasn't tied to polygamy for a few more years after 1861).  

Yeah, me too.  I guess I'm interested to see if there are any additional resources/sources regarding what was received in 1831.  What is written in the D&C 132 overview is ambiguous and misleading, in a lot of ways.  If it wasn't a revelation in 1831, then why were JS and others practing polygamy in that time before 1843?  If it is a revelation, is there any more beside the guidance from God to make the American Indians white? 

Edited March 18, 2016 by Keq82

[Wanderer7]

59 minutes ago, Keq82 said:

This is what the summary of D&C 132 states:

"Although the revelation was recorded in 1843, it is evident from the historical records that the doctrines and principles involved in this revelation had been known by the Prophet since 1831."

The 1831 revelation it is referring to is about the Phelps letter revelation, correct?

If it doesn't constitute a legitmate revelation, then why is it listed in the summary of D&C 132?  

The only reason some people claim what Phelps wrote is the revelation referred to in 1831 is that his recollection is one of the few accounts of the doctrine of polygamy being taught in 1831. It was probably used by him to provide evidence to critics that Brigham Young had not created polygamy. However, there are NO reliable records of the actual revelation Joseph received in 1831. Whatever Joseph knew he did not record until he dictated D&C 132. There are not even any first hand accounts of any revelations Joseph received on polygamy written anywhere near 1831. While Phelps may have recalled something of what Joseph taught about polygamy, no legitimate historian would use what Phelps wrote 30 years later as a representation of any official revelation. It resembles at best a very weak, albeit typical, anti-Mormon tactic to misrepresent LDS history.

There is some evidence aside from Phelps' letter that Joseph was privately teaching polygamy as early as 1831, but again, those recollections do not comprise a revelation; however they are likely the basis of the statement in the D&C heading. But I will remind you that the headings do not represent official LDS doctrine or history.

Edited March 18, 2016 by Wanderer7

[Keq82]

55 minutes ago, Wanderer7 said:

The only reason some people claim what Phelps wrote is the revelation referred to in 1831 is that his recollection is one of the few accounts of the doctrine of polygamy being taught in 1831. It was probably used by him to provide evidence to critics that Brigham Young had not created polygamy. However, there are NO reliable records of the actual revelation Joseph received in 1831. Whatever Joseph knew he did not record until he dictated D&C 132. There are not even any first hand accounts of any revelations Joseph received on polygamy written anywhere near 1831. While Phelps may have recalled something of what Joseph taught about polygamy, no legitimate historian would use what Phelps wrote 30 years later as a representation of any official revelation. It resembles at best a very weak, albeit typical, anti-Mormon tactic to misrepresent LDS history.

There is some evidence aside from Phelps' letter that Joseph was privately teaching polygamy as early as 1831, but again, those recollections do not comprise a revelation; however they are likely the basis of the statement in the D&C heading. But I will remind you that the headings do not represent official LDS doctrine or history.

Very informative! Thanks! Perhaps it's safe to say there is nothing we will find to fully reconcile polygamy.  I understand that headings are not doctrine; however, it's very misleading, especially when you take into consideration what was behind the basis for the 1831 statement.  

If no legitimate historian would use the 1831 info, why then was it put in the heading?  Is it damage control for Joseph Smith, since D&C 132 wasn't revealed until 1843?  It's all very confusing...

 

[Calm]

Evidences for a possible 1831 date:

http://en.fairmormon.org/Question:_When_did_Joseph_Smith_receive_the_revelation_on_plural_marriage%3F

Whether or not you weigh the evidences to come to the same conclusion, I am not interested in discussing as I can see why people would be both hesitant to and others feel it fits in with other stuff going on at the time, just providing the info for anyone who was curious as I didn't see all the references listed in the thread here.

[Keq82]

Thanks...I've never seen this.  

[Keq82]

3 minutes ago, Calm said:

Evidences for a possible 1831 date:

http://en.fairmormon.org/Question:_When_did_Joseph_Smith_receive_the_revelation_on_plural_marriage%3F

Whether or not you weigh the evidences to come to the same conclusion, I am not interested in discussing as I can see why people would be both hesitant to and others feel it fits in with other stuff going on at the time, just providing the info for anyone who was curious as I didn't see all the references listed in the thread here.

Thanks...I've never seen this.  

[webbles]

3 hours ago, ALarson said:

It refers to it as a "revelation" in the church essay:

https://www.lds.org/topics/plural-marriage-in-kirtland-and-nauvoo?lang=eng#4

But the church essay is not talking about the Phelp's letter.  It is talking about "the revelation" that was then later written down and we now know as D&C 132.

[Keq82]

1 hour ago, webbles said:

But the church essay is not talking about the Phelp's letter.  It is talking about "the revelation" that was then later written down and we now know as D&C 132.

So just to clarify, there was no revelation in 1831 regarding polygamy, correct?  At least that's what most historians would argue.  The first documented revelation is D&C 132, which was received in 1843.  

[webbles]

10 minutes ago, Keq82 said:

So just to clarify, there was no revelation in 1831 regarding polygamy, correct?  At least that's what most historians would argue.  The first documented revelation is D&C 132, which was received in 1843.  

There was no written down revelation in 1831 that we know of.  But the church essay and the heading to D&C 132 imply (or maybe, out right state) that a revelation was received in 1831 about polygamy.

[Wanderer7]

W.W. Phelps recorded a 30 year old recollection of a revelation about marrying Lamanites, which did not even mention polygamy (meaning it was not "the" revelation). When he asked Joseph how it was to be accomplished, the answer was polygamy. Phelps was trying to show that Joseph taught polygamy as early as 1831. This, along with other accounts, lead historians to believe Joseph knew about polygamy by 1831. "The" revelation was not recorded until 1843. Whether it is verbatim what Joseph received in 1831 cannot be concluded alone by historical evidence, but the heading to D&C 132 is not referring to the "Phelps revelation."

[JulieM]

1 hour ago, Wanderer7 said:

W.W. Phelps recorded a 30 year old recollection of a revelation about marrying Lamanites, which did not even mention polygamy (meaning it was not "the" revelation). When he asked Joseph how it was to be accomplished, the answer was polygamy. Phelps was trying to show that Joseph taught polygamy as early as 1831. This, along with other accounts, lead historians to believe Joseph knew about polygamy by 1831. "The" revelation was not recorded until 1843. Whether it is verbatim what Joseph received in 1831 cannot be concluded alone by historical evidence, but the heading to D&C 132 is not referring to the "Phelps revelation."

 What other indication or record do we have for the reference to an 1831 revelation?  Did Joseph ever mention that date?  I'm just curious where the historians or leaders get that year to name.  If not the Phelp's reference for that year, what other record gives that year?  

What are the "other accounts" you mention above?

Edited March 19, 2016 by JulieM