John Willard Young

[sjdawg]

A few days ago someone told me that Brigham Young made one of his son's an apostle at age 11.  I didn't believe it however they sent me a couple of links with information.  One was wikipedia which can't always be trusted.

Is this true?   How was is done?   I'm not sure what the process of ordination was at that time (were deacons still ordained at age 12?)  If true what value does an 11 year old apostle have.   I thought I had hear everything before but this one really surprised me.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Willard_Young

 

It sounds like he had a colorful life and his son was at one point convicted of murder but it is the ordination to the apostleship at age 11 that really shocks me.  Can anyone confirm if this is true or false?

Edited to Add;

It appears it has been discussed here before.   My apologies for dredging up an old topic.  Please return to the main page and enjoy one of the many threads about gay marriage..haha

 

Edited March 15, 2016 by sjdawg

[sjdawg]

I just found this link which says he was ordained as a young boy and the ordination was confirmed when he was 19.  (not sure exactly what that means)    I had no idea people had ever been called as apostles without being in the quorum of the 12.  I learn something new everyday.

 

https://rsc.byu.edu/archived/prophets-and-apostles-last-dispensation/first-counselors-first-presidency/5-john-willard

 

Edited March 15, 2016 by sjdawg

[JLHPROF]

Many were called as Apostles without being in the quorum.  John Willard Young was neither the first nor last.

Another famous name was Hyrum Smith.

As to his age...no rule against it.

[stemelbow]

It was an effort, as I understand it to give him the Presidency at some point on President Young's part.  Meaning the most senior apostle was going to end up as President.  But the rules changed when they started to realize he has no business being president, or even a quorum member.  It's an interesting story, for sure.  His son was convicted of murder, I believe, but many have qualified all of this by suggesting John Willard himself wasn't really a believer. 

[Duncan]

Alvin Dyer was the last one. Correct me if I am wrong but Charles W. Nibley wasn't an Apostle but was in the 1st Pres.

[cdowis]

Just to avoid confusion, "Apostle" is a priesthood office, similar to deacon, elder, etc.  Becoming a member of the Q12 is a calling which, I assume, requires that the individual has the office of an apostle.  I found that out when I was a ward clerk, when we had to report the attendance of each priesthood office holder, and apostle was listed as a separate office from the High Priest.  Which now leads me to observe that the members of the 70 are High Priests, and the priesthood office of seventy no longer exists?

[halconero]

Members of the Quorums of the Seventy are still ordained as Seventy. The source is anecdotal obviously, but we recently had a member of the YSA ward have the Melchezidek priesthood conferred on him by his grandpa, a member of the Seventy. The church record listed that as his office in the priesthood.

Current offices of the priesthood are:

Aaronic

Deacon

Teacher

Priest

Bishop (who must also be ordained a High Priest unless they are a literal descendant of Aaron)

Melchezidek

Elder

High Priest

Seventy

Patriarch

Apostle

I find that quite a few members believe that the President of the Church is an office of the priesthood, or that Prophet is one as well. In reality the function of a Prophet and the ability to Preside are wrapped up on Latter-day Saint apostolic office.

[JLHPROF]

25 minutes ago, halconero said:

Members of the Quorums of the Seventy are still ordained as Seventy. The source is anecdotal obviously, but we recently had a member of the YSA ward have the Melchezidek priesthood conferred on him by his grandpa, a member of the Seventy. The church record listed that as his office in the priesthood.

Current offices of the priesthood are:

Aaronic

Deacon

Teacher

Priest

Bishop (who must also be ordained a High Priest unless they are a literal descendant of Aaron)

Melchezidek

Elder

High Priest

Seventy

Patriarch

Apostle

Wilford Woodruff - Let the Twelve Apostles, and the Seventy Apostles, and High Priest Apostles, and all other Apostles rise up and keep pace with the work of the Lord God, for we have no time to sleep.

 

And are Seventies still "ordained" or "set apart"?

[Duncan]

3 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

Wilford Woodruff - Let the Twelve Apostles, and the Seventy Apostles, and High Priest Apostles, and all other Apostles rise up and keep pace with the work of the Lord God, for we have no time to sleep.

 

And are Seventies still "ordained" or "set apart"?

I think they are ordained and set apart as a member of whichever quorum they are in

[halconero]

13 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

Wilford Woodruff - Let the Twelve Apostles, and the Seventy Apostles, and High Priest Apostles, and all other Apostles rise up and keep pace with the work of the Lord God, for we have no time to sleep.

 

And are Seventies still "ordained" or "set apart"?

Well...that gets into argument of Apostle as a priesthood office and Apostle as a designation of a witness of Christ's death and resurrection

Ordained and set apart within a Quorum, much like how a Bishop is ordained and set apart within a ward.

[ttribe]

FYI, recent thread on this: http://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/66126-child-prophet-the-curious-case-of-john-willard-young-a-mormon-apostle/#comment-1209541279

[sjdawg]

Interesting stuff.  thanks for the responses.

[VideoGameJunkie]

I'm disappointed then that I'm 30 and have yet to be called as an apostle. I'm getting up there in age, so I hope I'm called soon.

[rpn]

As I  understand it, there was a move to install JWY in the Quorum, and John Taylor determined that the rank would be when they were ordained to the Quorum, which ruled out any rank for JWY.

[JLHPROF]

1 hour ago, rpn said:

As I  understand it, there was a move to install JWY in the Quorum, and John Taylor determined that the rank would be when they were ordained to the Quorum, which ruled out any rank for JWY.

 

There is some minor confusion on this point.

Brigham Young reduced Orson Hyde and Orson Pratt in seniority in the quorum because they had breaks in their membership.  This allowed John Taylor to become President as senior member of the quorum.
However, there is also record that Lorenzo Snow changed the policy so that the person who had been in the quorum the longest instead of the senior Apostle by ordination which prevented John Willard Young from becoming President.

So the confusion is whether President Young made it senior in the quorum first and President Snow reiterated it.
OR if President Young made it senior by ordination and President Snow made it senior in the quorum.

Doesn't really matter, but I can't determine which it is.

[ALarson]

12 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

 

There is some minor confusion on this point.

Brigham Young reduced Orson Hyde and Orson Pratt in seniority in the quorum because they had breaks in their membership.

Were they both excommunicated at some time during their lives?  I'm trying to remember....

(I'll try to look this up too.)

ETA:

Found this:

Quote

Orson Pratt was initially ordained an apostle on  April 26, 1835  at the age of 23.  Due to disloyalty toward the leaders of the church, he was excommunicated on August 20, 1842 .  During the latter part of 1842 he repented and sought forgiveness.  On  January 20, 1843 , he was rebaptized, ordained an apostle, and reinstated into the Quorum of the Twelve.

But, was Orson Hyde ever excommunicated or just disfellowshipped?

Edited March 16, 2016 by ALarson

[Duncan]

5 minutes ago, ALarson said:

Were they both excommunicated at some time during their lives?  I'm trying to remember....

(I'll try to look this up too.)

ETA:

Found this:

But, was Orson Hyde ever excommunicated or just disfellowshipped?

it's my understanding he was disfellowshipped but it was for a very short time and he came back. I can't recall why he was disciplined though

[JLHPROF]

15 minutes ago, ALarson said:

Were they both excommunicated at some time during their lives?  I'm trying to remember....

(I'll try to look this up too.)

ETA:

Found this:

But, was Orson Hyde ever excommunicated or just disfellowshipped?

Thanks.
I understand what happened with the Orsons.

The question as pertains to this thread is why Lorenzo Snow is stated to have "changed" the succession practices for John Willard Young when based on my readings he didn't change anything and seemed to just repeat what Brigham did 25 years earlier:  state that it was seniority in the Quorum, not seniority of ordination.

So did Brigham make it seniority by ordination (as Orson Pratt was reordained, not sure about Orson Hyde)?
And Lorenzo made it by quorum membership?
Or did Brigham make it by quorum membership first?

 

Edited March 16, 2016 by JLHPROF

[ALarson]

11 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

Thanks.
I understand what happened with the Orsons.

The question as pertains to this thread is why Lorenzo Snow is stated to have "changed" the succession practices for John Willard Young when based on my readings he didn't change anything and seemed to just repeat what Brigham did 25 years earlier:  state that it was seniority in the Quorum, not seniority of ordination.

So did Brigham make it seniority by ordination (as Orson Pratt was reordained, not sure about Orson Hyde)?
And Lorenzo made it by quorum membership?
Or did Brigham make it by quorum membership first?

 

I studied this at one time, but it was quite a while ago.  So, I don't know off hand the answers.

I just remember that there were some that felt John Taylor should not have been the next president of the church when Brigham died, and that Orson Hyde should have been.  I don't know how you feel about that, but I do know there were some issues between Hyde and Brigham Young (iirc, over the Adam/God Doctrine?).

Here's the info (from wiki...so add any corrections, etc.):

Quote

Hyde had also left church activity, and thus the quorum, on October 19, 1838. When dealing with seniority in the council in 1875, long after the death of Joseph Smith, Brigham Young ruled that, if a council member had been disciplined and removed from the council, his seniority was based on the date of readmission. By this ruling, in June 1875, both Hyde and Apostle Orson Pratt were moved down in quorum seniority. So, when Hyde repented in 1839, he effectively joined the quorum as a new member. As a result of this ruling, John Taylor replaced Hyde as President of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles in 1875

 

[Alan]

I find the evolution of the office of Seventy quite interesting.

A Seventy can be a general authority, but doesn't have to be. Some years ago each stake had a Seventy's Quorum, now there are none at stake level. But we do have Area Seventy's now who help preside over a geographical area. These are technically local leaders who serve for a limited period (5 years), but not as local as stake level.

In New Testament times the Seventy were often referred to as the Seventy Apostles and I remember reading somewhere that it is thought by some that Paul was actually a Seventy, not one of the Twelve.

I just find it interesting.

[JLHPROF]

6 minutes ago, Alan said:

I find the evolution of the office of Seventy quite interesting.

A Seventy can be a general authority, but doesn't have to be. Some years ago each stake had a Seventy's Quorum, now there are none at stake level. But we do have Area Seventy's now who help preside over a geographical area. These are technically local leaders who serve for a limited period (5 years), but not as local as stake level.

In New Testament times the Seventy were often referred to as the Seventy Apostles and I remember reading somewhere that it is thought by some that Paul was actually a Seventy, not one of the Twelve.

I just find it interesting.

Seventies were considered apostles in the early days of the Church too.

[JLHPROF]

10 minutes ago, ALarson said:

I studied this at one time, but it was quite a while ago.  So, I don't know off hand the answers.

I just remember that there were some that felt John Taylor should not have been the next president of the church when Brigham died, and that Orson Hyde should have been.  I don't know how you feel about that, but I do know there were some issues between Hyde and Brigham Young (iirc, over the Adam/God Doctrine?).

Here's the info (from wiki...so add any corrections, etc.):

 

It was Pratt and Young that disagreed on doctrine.
Hyde sustained Young, but had a similar falling out with Joseph Smith to Pratt's back in the early days.

Again, my question isn't about Pratt and Hyde, but whether Lorenzo Snow changed the policy further or just reiterated what Brigham Young had already established.

[ALarson]

10 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

It was Pratt and Young that disagreed on doctrine.
Hyde sustained Young, but had a similar falling out with Joseph Smith to Pratt's back in the early days.

 

Oh...thanks (I get the Orsons confused sometimes...  )

And, I've even read the book Conflict in the Quorum: Orson Pratt, Brigham Young, Joseph Smith ....I still get confused!!

Edited March 16, 2016 by ALarson

[Derl Sanderson]

For me, this is yet another example of how the Lord reveals something (in this case relating to priesthood office and church government), and then we proceed to screw it up with our limited understanding until "further light and knowledge" is explicitly given or perceived by spiritual ministrations.

Other examples that come to mind: Joseph introduces baptism for the dead at Seymour Brunson's funeral and the saints go buck wild in the Mississippi River baptizing sons for their mothers, sisters for their brothers, no records being kept, etc. until corrected. The Lord gives Joseph vision regarding the sealing together of all mankind and binding us by covenant through priesthood power, and we implement the limited and limiting Law of Adoption until the Lord expands our understanding through Wilford Woodruff.

I think the Lord flooded Joseph with visions and revelations that we are still trying to get our minds around in terms of their implementation and practical application. Thank goodness for the concept of continuing revelation that helps sort these things out as we fallen and failed humans try to grasp and practice the things of God!   

[cdowis]

On 3/16/2016 at 11:54 PM, VideoGameJunkie said:

I'm disappointed then that I'm 30 and have yet to be called as an apostle. I'm getting up there in age, so I hope I'm called soon.

A few suggestions -- change your user name, and be sure to wear a suit to church.