WHY is Jeremy Runnels Facing Church Discipline?

[smac97]

7 minutes ago, Johnnie Cake said:

You've obviously put a lot of work and thought into this reply...thanks for that...but I honestly don't care to debate my perspective on the question of the humanity of church courts...I hold to my view.  In the courts I was involved...they were nothing more than institutional abuse...I'm embarrassed and regret ever having been involved with them.  I beg forgiveness form those who submitted themselves to this barbarous religious practice seeking absolution...they deserved better from a church that includes the name of Jesus Christ in its logo

As you like.  I don't think your position is defensible, so it's not exactly surprising that you won't defend it.

I will take you less seriously from now on.  I have no qualms with spirited debate and discourse about my faith.  But patently obvious falsehoods and demagoguery can't be debated.  Just condemned or ignored.  

Thanks,

-Smac

Edited February 11, 2016 by smac97

[Johnnie Cake]

1 minute ago, The Nehor said:

I find it right and fitting.

Me and my shadow...

[The Nehor]

Just now, Johnnie Cake said:

Me and my shadow...

...that knows what evil lurks in the hearts of men...

[Johnnie Cake]

4 minutes ago, smac97 said:

you like.  I don't think your position is defensible, so it's not exactly surprising that you won't defend it.

I will take you less seriously from now on.  I have no qualms with spirited debate and discourse about my faith.  But patently obvious falsehoods and demagoguery can't be debated.  Just condemned or ignored.  

Thanks,

-Smac

whatever...we just see it from different experiences...mine were awful experiences while yours were all wonderful pink puffy clouds and unicorns...I'm glad you had such a wonderful experience with those courts. I didn't

[HappyJackWagon]

1 hour ago, VideoGameJunkie said:

I think people like Kate Kelly, John Dehlin, and Jeremy Runnells want to be seen as martyrs for their cause, so that's why they didn't just resign membership.

I think there's some truth to this but I also don't think it's reasonable to expect someone to resign simply because I think they should. There are many reasons why a person may not want to resign; family, community, are the first two that come to mind. Dehlin and Kelly repeatedly describe the church as their "tribe". This can have significant meaning for people so expecting them to self-select out of Mormonism when they still feel a part of it is unreasonable. There are things to value in the church even if one doesn't believe it to literally be the one true church of God.

[Johnnie Cake]

3 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

...that knows what evil lurks in the hearts of men...

You're my evil twin...I almost hate to admit it but you do make me laugh...

[ksfisher]

1 minute ago, HappyJackWagon said:

I think there's some truth to this but I also don't think it's reasonable to expect someone to resign simply because I think they should. There are many reasons why a person may not want to resign; family, community, are the first two that come to mind. Dehlin and Kelly repeatedly describe the church as their "tribe". This can have significant meaning for people so expecting them to self-select out of Mormonism when they still feel a part of it is unreasonable. There are things to value in the church even if one doesn't believe it to literally be the one true church of God.

I think much of what you are writing here is true.  I do find it strange that Dehlin wanted to be part of the tribe, but asked the tribe to have no contact with him. 

[smac97]

3 minutes ago, Johnnie Cake said:

whatever...we just see it from different experiences...

Yes, I see that.  We have differing perspectives on this issue.  The difference is that I can explain and provide a rational and reasoned basis for my perspective.  You can't or won't defend yours, and instead resort to demagoguery and falsehood.  

Quote

mine were awful experiences while yours were all wonderful pink puffy clouds and unicorns...I'm glad you had such a wonderful experience with those courts. I didn't

I've been involved in dozens of disciplinary actions.  None of them were pleasant (well, except the ones reinstating people into fellowship).

But "barbaric?"  Get real.

Thanks,

-Smac

[Mystery Meat]

21 minutes ago, Johnnie Cake said:

You've obviously put a lot of work and thought into this reply...thanks for that...but I honestly don't care to debate my perspective on the question of the humanity of church courts...I hold to my view.  In the courts I was involved...they were nothing more than institutional abuse...I'm embarrassed and regret ever having been involved with them.  I beg forgiveness form those who submitted themselves to this barbarous religious practice seeking absolution...

You are entitled to your opinion, but it is very disingenuous to call for some sort of "why can't we all get a long", while at the same time calling a tenant of our religion as barbaric. 

To answer your question, look first in the mirror. 

[The Nehor]

12 minutes ago, Johnnie Cake said:

whatever...we just see it from different experiences...mine were awful experiences while yours were all wonderful pink puffy clouds and unicorns...I'm glad you had such a wonderful experience with those courts. I didn't

All my experiences have been good ones. I stand by my record of 4 indictments and no convictions.

[Johnnie Cake]

20 minutes ago, smac97 said:

Yes, I see that.  We have differing perspectives on this issue.  The difference is that I can explain and provide a rational and reasoned basis for my perspective.  You can't or won't defend yours, and instead resort to demagoguery and falsehood.  

I've been involved in dozens of disciplinary actions.  None of them were pleasant (well, except the ones reinstating people into fellowship).

But "barbaric?"  Get real.

Thanks,

-Smac

I admit that the word barbaric is a charged word, if it offended you I apologize I didn't mean to offend. Sometimes I forget my audience. In each of the courts I was involved I believe  everyone had the best of intentions....BUT ITS THE SYSTEM that's broken. Its the system, the process, the fact that stakes are required to even hold courts that is the problem.  There is no uniformity, no training (at least I didn't receive any other then the handbook) just a "expectation" that all will go according to plan.  But the process is rotten to begin with...it is designed to put the accused in  a submissive position, unrepresented (oh yeah I know the process of assigning half for and half for the church Hah, what a joke) its not fair, its not equitable, it's inhuman , and yes its barbaric to think that in the 21st century a church is still expecting its most vulnerable members to submit themselves to such an over stacked process of emotional abuse...the church can do better than this, they owe these emotionally broken people whose self-esteem has been obliterated by this process something better than what they put them through...but if you want to defend it...be my guest...defend away 

Edited February 11, 2016 by Johnnie Cake

[cinepro]

If anyone runs into Runnells, can you ask him if he believes in the LDS Church more than Cinepro believes in the Church of Scientology*?  And if so, in what way?

 

Genuinely curious.

 

*Which, for those of you who are new here, is 0.

[The Nehor]

Just now, cinepro said:

If anyone runs into Runnells, can you ask him if he believes in the LDS Church more than Cinepro believes in the Church of Scientology*?  And if so, in what way?

 

Genuinely curious.

 

*Which, for those of you who are new here, is 0.

If you cleansed yourself of thetans you would not talk such rubbish.

[smac97]

5 minutes ago, Johnnie Cake said:

I admit that the word barbaric is a charged word, if it offended you I apologize I didn't mean to offend. Sometimes I forget my audience. In each of the courts I was involved I believe  everyone had the best of intentions....BUT ITS THE SYSTEM that's broken. Its the system, the process, the fact that stakes are required to even hold courts that is the problem.  There is no uniformity, no training (at least I didn't receive any other then the handbook) just a "expectation" that all will go according to plan.  But the process is rotten to begin with...it is designed to put the accused in  a submissive position, unrepresented (oh yeah I know the process of assigning half for and half for the church Hah, what a joke) its not fair, its not equitable, it's inhuman , and yes its barbaric to think that in the 21st century a church is still expecting its most vulnerable members to submit themselves to such an over stacked process of emotional abuse...the church can do better than this, they owe these emotionally broken people whose self-esteem has been obliterated by this process something better than what they put them through...but if you want to defend it...be my guest...defend away 

Demagoguery.  That's all you're doing here.  There is no reasoning.  No facts.  No analysis.  No discussion.  No weighing of argument and evidence.  Just emotion.  Anger.  Vitriol.  Demagoguery.

This isn't healthy.  It isn't productive.  It isn't right.  So let's stop where we are.  Let's take a breather.  Perhaps on another day we can try this again.  I wish you well.

Thanks,

-Smac

[Johnnie Cake]

3 minutes ago, cinepro said:

If anyone runs into Runnells, can you ask him if he believes in the LDS Church more than Cinepro believes in the Church of Scientology*?  And if so, in what way?

 

Genuinely curious.

 

*Which, for those of you who are new here, is 0.

Don't sell yourself short...You'd make a great Scientologist

[Jeanne]

1 hour ago, Johnnie Cake said:

You've obviously put a lot of work and thought into this reply...thanks for that...but I honestly don't care to debate my perspective on the question of the humanity of church courts...I hold to my view.  In the courts I was involved...they were nothing more than institutional abuse...I'm embarrassed and regret ever having been involved with them.  I beg forgiveness form those who submitted themselves to this barbarous religious practice seeking absolution...they deserved better from a church that includes the name of Jesus Christ in its logo

I think it is just nosy.

[ksfisher]

34 minutes ago, Johnnie Cake said:

I admit that the word barbaric is a charged word, if it offended you I apologize I didn't mean to offend. Sometimes I forget my audience. In each of the courts I was involved I believe  everyone had the best of intentions....BUT ITS THE SYSTEM that's broken. Its the system, the process, the fact that stakes are required to even hold courts that is the problem.  There is no uniformity, no training (at least I didn't receive any other then the handbook) just a "expectation" that all will go according to plan.  But the process is rotten to begin with...it is designed to put the accused in  a submissive position, unrepresented (oh yeah I know the process of assigning half for and half for the church Hah, what a joke) its not fair, its not equitable, it's inhuman , and yes its barbaric to think that in the 21st century a church is still expecting its most vulnerable members to submit themselves to such an over stacked process of emotional abuse...the church can do better than this, they owe these emotionally broken people whose self-esteem has been obliterated by this process something better than what they put them through...but if you want to defend it...be my guest...defend away 

It sounds as though you shouldn't have been there.  I'm meaning this in a kind way.

[ksfisher]

10 minutes ago, Jeanne said:

I think it is just nosy.

Yet this "nosy" process was instituted by the Lord.  

[Jeanne]

11 minutes ago, ksfisher said:

Yet this "nosy" process was instituted by the Lord.  

I think the Lord wanted us to talk to Him. 

[Rain]

2 hours ago, rongo said:

He said he did. But then in his published communications with the stake president, etc., he said that he told him he had asked for no contact and to be left alone. 

Not exactly a rousing defense of his membership. And what good is it if you say you "want to remain a member" but publicly criticize and disbelieve in the Church?

I know a woman on a non lds related board who rages against the church every chance she can. She also asks to not be contacted and boy do we hear about it if she moves and is contacted or the missionaries happen upon her door. She has no belief at all in the church and is agnostic, but close to atheist. And every time she screams she has people who are not lds listening to her and think it is just awful that the church just won't leave her alone. She also gets angry when the church gives membership numbers because that is dishonest when it counts her even though she refuses to remove herself.

[The Nehor]

7 minutes ago, Rain said:

I know a woman on a non lds related board who rages against the church every chance she can. She also asks to not be contacted and boy do we hear about it if she moves and is contacted or the missionaries happen upon her door. She has no belief at all in the church and is agnostic, but close to atheist. And every time she screams she has people who are not lds listening to her and think it is just awful that the church just won't leave her alone. She also gets angry when the church gives membership numbers because that is dishonest when it counts her even though she refuses to remove herself.

Crazy angry people get crazier and angrier if you suggest something that would diminish their justification for being crazy and angry.

[ksfisher]

10 minutes ago, Jeanne said:

I think the Lord wanted us to talk to Him. 

Of course he wants us to talk to him.  But God has made it clear in the scriptures as well as to modern prophets that confession is part of the atonement process for some sins.

Mosiah 26:29

Therefore I say unto you, Go; and whosoever transgresseth against me, him shall ye judge according to the sins which he has committed; and if he confess his sins before thee and me, and repenteth in the sincerity of his heart, him shall ye forgive, and I will forgive him also.

Hellman 5:17

And it came to pass that they did preach with great power, insomuch that they did confound many of those dissenters who had gone over from the Nephites, insomuch that they came forth and did confess their sins and were baptized unto repentance, and immediately returned to the Nephites to endeavor to repair unto them the wrongs which they had done.

also D&C 102 and many others.

[Calm]

1 hour ago, Johnnie Cake said:

.but I find it sad that someone who wants to remain a member irrespective of their reason is excommunicated. 

Even if that reason might be solely so they are in a position to influence others to leave the Church?

I know of several cases where the individual has stated this,

[The Nehor]

1 hour ago, Johnnie Cake said:

You're my evil twin...I almost hate to admit it but you do make me laugh...

I checked my evilometer and you are registering higher then me. As shocking as it might sound I might be the good one.

[Jeanne]

I hop, skip and jump on some of the pages here..so you guys may already know..but just found out that Jeremy's court has been chaned to March 20th.  He found out after the press conference last night.  Apologies if this has already been mentioned.