consiglieri Posted January 19, 2016 Posted January 19, 2016 President Nelson said in his now famous YSA address last week: Quote There are servants of Satan embedded throughout society, so be careful who you follow. President Nelson did not define what he meant by "servants of Satan." I would like to know what people here think. And try not to make it personal. Okay? 1
Gillebre Posted January 19, 2016 Posted January 19, 2016 People who actively sow seeds of doubt in the minds of otherwise faithful people. Those who try to persuade or convince people away from choosing to believe. 3
consiglieri Posted January 19, 2016 Author Posted January 19, 2016 Just now, Gillebre said: People who actively sow seeds of doubt in the minds of otherwise faithful people. Those who try to persuade or convince people away from choosing to believe. Mormon missionaries? 2
Mars Posted January 19, 2016 Posted January 19, 2016 2 minutes ago, consiglieri said: Mormon missionaries? Is that how you view Mormon missionaries? Or are you being facetious and saying one man's satanic servant is another man's angelic visitor, bearing good news of the restored gospel?
consiglieri Posted January 19, 2016 Author Posted January 19, 2016 I am saying Gillebre's definition of "servants of Satan" applies to Mormon missionaries, with the thought in mind that perhaps he may wish to retool his definition.
Mars Posted January 19, 2016 Posted January 19, 2016 (edited) 1 minute ago, consiglieri said: I am saying Gillebre's definition of "servants of Satan" applies to Mormon missionaries, with the thought in mind that perhaps he may wish to retool his definition. So, yes? You see them as sowers of doubt in other people's lives? People who are otherwise faithful? That the point of missionary work is to discredit or undermine the faith of the people who open their doors to the Mormon missionaries? Edited January 19, 2016 by Mars
Mars Posted January 19, 2016 Posted January 19, 2016 At any rate, to answer OP, you have to assume the worldview of Elder Nelson is correct - that there really is the Kingdom of God on Earth, and that the Priesthood is real, and that people who oppose the Kingdom do so because they know what it is and seek its destruction - in order to get what he's saying. Assuming it's all true, anyone who knowingly engages in such would be a servant of Satan. Who is a servant of Satan? That's up to you to figure out. Most folks have more benign origins to their opposition. The things they do oppose, be it teaching, policy, tweets, or manner of dress, they do so because they disagree. And they disagree for a variety of reasons; re: the policy, it's punitive and vindictive and God doesn't oppose little children getting baptized, re: gay marriage, love is love and who cares your gender/sex, re; style of dress, suits and ties are dumb we should all wear yoga pants. I don't mind talking or being friends with people who disagree. On rare occasion, I've met someone who seems to go beyond the respectful bridge of disagreement. I avoid them. I don't really care if they're servants of Satan or not. I've just made a decision about whether or not they get my time, attention, and social interaction. Using your brain and using wisdom and discernment based on the Holy Ghost, if you believe in that sort of thing, to determine someone's intentions in their opposition seems to be the message that Elder Nelson sent. That's how I took it. ymmv 3
Ahab Posted January 19, 2016 Posted January 19, 2016 9 minutes ago, Mars said: So, yes? You see them as sowers of doubt in other people's lives? People who are otherwise faithful? That the point of missionary work is to discredit or undermine the faith of the people who open their doors to the Mormon missionaries? He just prefers to have things spelled out very clearly for him with as little room for misunderstanding as possible for anyone who has a hard time seeing what others can see. And with as little effort as possible on his part to try to make things clear for others to understand. Doubt isn't necessarily bad, for example, especially when people doubt what is not true. And yes Mormon missionaries do sometimes try to get people to doubt what is not true in favor of what really is true. But no, consiglieri, that doesn't make Mormon missionaries servants of Satan. Quite the opposite in fact So keep stirring the pot until somebody ELSE gives a very clear definition for what it means to be a servant of Satan without you bothering to give a clear definition yourself. I'll simply say that a servant of Satan is someone who acts or tries to act like Satan in some way. 1
CV75 Posted January 19, 2016 Posted January 19, 2016 42 minutes ago, consiglieri said: President Nelson said in his now famous YSA address last week: President Nelson did not define what he meant by "servants of Satan." I would like to know what people here think. And try not to make it personal. Okay? I would say they are those engaged in the type of dynamic described in D&C 10, where the term is used. “Pray always, that you may come off conqueror; yea, that you may conquer Satan, and that you may escape the hands of the servants of Satan that do uphold his work.” The servants of Satan seek to destroy those engaged in the Lord’s work on an individual and collective level. They seek to take away the things wherewith we have been entrusted, which all tie in to our agency and our word. They seek to destroy our various spiritual gift(s), including our testimonies, our companionship of the Holy Ghost and our involvement in the Church. They would be those who work and contend against the servants of the Lord.
bluebell Posted January 19, 2016 Posted January 19, 2016 Anyone who tries to lessen another's faith in God or His will, or tries to convince another not to follow Christ in some way is a servant of Satan. We probably all qualify at some point or another. 2
consiglieri Posted January 19, 2016 Author Posted January 19, 2016 44 minutes ago, Mars said: So, yes? You see them as sowers of doubt in other people's lives? People who are otherwise faithful? That the point of missionary work is to discredit or undermine the faith of the people who open their doors to the Mormon missionaries? Well, yes. That much seems obvious.
CA Steve Posted January 19, 2016 Posted January 19, 2016 15 minutes ago, Mars said: At any rate, to answer OP, you have to assume the worldview of Elder Nelson is correct - that there really is the Kingdom of God on Earth, and that the Priesthood is real, and that people who oppose the Kingdom do so because they know what it is and seek its destruction - in order to get what he's saying. Assuming it's all true, anyone who knowingly engages in such would be a servant of Satan. Who is a servant of Satan? That's up to you to figure out. Most folks have more benign origins to their opposition. The things they do oppose, be it teaching, policy, tweets, or manner of dress, they do so because they disagree. And they disagree for a variety of reasons; re: the policy, it's punitive and vindictive and God doesn't oppose little children getting baptized, re: gay marriage, love is love and who cares your gender/sex, re; style of dress, suits and ties are dumb we should all wear yoga pants. I don't mind talking or being friends with people who disagree. On rare occasion, I've met someone who seems to go beyond the respectful bridge of disagreement. I avoid them. I don't really care if they're servants of Satan or not. I've just made a decision about whether or not they get my time, attention, and social interaction. Using your brain and using wisdom and discernment based on the Holy Ghost, if you believe in that sort of thing, to determine someone's intentions in their opposition seems to be the message that Elder Nelson sent. That's how I took it. ymmv I agree with your assessment here, but by assuming a servant of Satan knowingly seeks the destruction of God's Kingdom on earth, that would seem to limit greatly the scope of who would be included in such a category because they would have to know they are in direct opposition to God himself. I mean do we really think there is a significant group of people out there who know what God's Kingdom is and in spite of that knowledge still work against it? In my opinion that is silly defense made by those seeking to shore up their own beliefs by creating an enemy who does not exist in a significant way. So I think Consiglieri asks an interesting question; who are these people who oppose the Kingdom of God? Are they people who knowingly are attacking God's kingdom or just misguided seekers themselves? 1
consiglieri Posted January 19, 2016 Author Posted January 19, 2016 26 minutes ago, Mars said: Who is a servant of Satan? That's up to you to figure out. Most folks have more benign origins to their opposition. So you see it as a small group?
consiglieri Posted January 19, 2016 Author Posted January 19, 2016 19 minutes ago, Ahab said: So keep stirring the pot until somebody ELSE gives a very clear definition for what it means to be a servant of Satan without you bothering to give a clear definition yourself. President Nelson is the one who used the term without bothering to define it. So I guess it is up to us to try to figure out his meaning as best we can.
consiglieri Posted January 19, 2016 Author Posted January 19, 2016 16 minutes ago, CV75 said: I would say they are those engaged in the type of dynamic described in D&C 10, where the term is used. “Pray always, that you may come off conqueror; yea, that you may conquer Satan, and that you may escape the hands of the servants of Satan that do uphold his work.” The servants of Satan seek to destroy those engaged in the Lord’s work on an individual and collective level. They seek to take away the things wherewith we have been entrusted, which all tie in to our agency and our word. They seek to destroy our various spiritual gift(s), including our testimonies, our companionship of the Holy Ghost and our involvement in the Church. They would be those who work and contend against the servants of the Lord. Thanks for giving the definition a crack. I suspect President Nelson would largely agree with you. The problem is that when you define the term so broadly, you end up making an awful lot of otherwise good and decent people "servants of Satan." For example, using this definition, almost anybody who voices disagreement with anything related to Mormonism could be termed a "servant of Satan."
consiglieri Posted January 19, 2016 Author Posted January 19, 2016 13 minutes ago, bluebell said: Anyone who tries to lessen another's faith in God or His will, or tries to convince another not to follow Christ in some way is a servant of Satan. We probably all qualify at some point or another. I like how you say we probably all qualify at some point or another, Bluebell. But I have a hard time believing that is what President Nelson would have meant by his usage.
Zakuska Posted January 19, 2016 Posted January 19, 2016 (edited) 31 minutes ago, Mars said: Who is a servant of Satan? That's up to you to figure out. You would think that would be the job description of God's anointed mouth pieces too the world. Edited January 19, 2016 by Zakuska
Mars Posted January 19, 2016 Posted January 19, 2016 2 minutes ago, consiglieri said: Well, yes. That much seems obvious. I disagree. I didn't go about trying to undermine other people's faith. Nor did a great many other missionaries I know. I suppose you disagree, and I suppose that's a discussion for another thread. 1
consiglieri Posted January 19, 2016 Author Posted January 19, 2016 Just now, Zakuska said: You would think that would be the job description God's anointed mouth pieces for the world. This is a good point, Zak. When loaded language like this is used in such an undefined way, it can lead to mischief in the hands of those who wish to denigrate others with whom they disagree.
Mars Posted January 19, 2016 Posted January 19, 2016 7 minutes ago, CA Steve said: I agree with your assessment here, but by assuming a servant of Satan knowingly seeks the destruction of God's Kingdom on earth, that would seem to limit greatly the scope of who would be included in such a category because they would have to know they are in direct opposition to God himself. I mean do we really think there is a significant group of people out there who know what God's Kingdom is and in spite of that knowledge still work against it? In my opinion that is silly defense made by those seeking to shore up their own beliefs by creating an enemy who does not exist in a significant way. So I think Consiglieri asks an interesting question; who are these people who oppose the Kingdom of God? Are they people who knowingly are attacking God's kingdom or just misguided seekers themselves? Fair enough. I don't think Elder Nelson was attempting to create an enemy in order to rally the troops. ymmv. 2
Mars Posted January 19, 2016 Posted January 19, 2016 9 minutes ago, consiglieri said: So you see it as a small group? Small, large, I don't know. I know that not everyone who opposes the Church's aims are servants of Satan. But I do ascribe to this crazy notion that this really is God's Kingdom and Satan does attempt to stir up opposition to God. It's not at all political to call people who oppose you 'servants of Satan,' so I get how it sounds. I get why CA Steve (and others?) think it's just propaganda tactics to keep us in line. I don't pretend to know the particulars of how Satan works in the hearts of men, nor do I claim to know who is exactly a servant of Satan. I do know that, spiritually speaking, folks are enticed to follow God or rebel against Him. It is believable in my worldview that some people who are enticed to rebel against God might try to convince other followers to rebel as well. When I've drawn the conclusion that someone isn't just opposing, but trying to fight against the Kingdom, I keep that conclusion to myself and generally ignore that person and move on. I also think there's wisdom and prudence in evaluating opposition with critical thinking techniques. 2
JLHPROF Posted January 19, 2016 Posted January 19, 2016 Anyone that is used by Satan to draw people off the one true path to return to God.
bluebell Posted January 19, 2016 Posted January 19, 2016 5 minutes ago, consiglieri said: I like how you say we probably all qualify at some point or another, Bluebell. But I have a hard time believing that is what President Nelson would have meant by his usage. I don't. He knows how fallible we all are and I'm sure he knows how easy it is for each of us to replace our own feelings and ideas with God's and then try to convince others we are right. But, there are those people who aren't even trying to follow God or who don't even believe in Him at all, who spend a lot of time and effort to convince others to agree with them. Maybe you are right and Nelson is only speaking of such. 1
consiglieri Posted January 19, 2016 Author Posted January 19, 2016 10 minutes ago, Mars said: I disagree. I didn't go about trying to undermine other people's faith. Nor did a great many other missionaries I know. I suppose you disagree, and I suppose that's a discussion for another thread. So if you ran into an investigator who was a member of another faith, you didn't try to convince them to be baptized into the LDS Church? This is news.
Mars Posted January 19, 2016 Posted January 19, 2016 11 minutes ago, Zakuska said: You would think that would be the job description of God's anointed mouth pieces too the world. No, I would think that it's up to me listen to them to believe that there even is such a thing as a servant of Satan and then use my own brain to figure it out.
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