CV75 Posted January 20, 2016 Posted January 20, 2016 43 minutes ago, stemelbow said: Kinda interesting to see it that way, huh? I agree. It just makes me think that saying simply don't follow servants of satan seems silly. We're all in this together and none of us are necessarily following others as we live our own lives and forge our own paths. Perhaps, in the spirit of your message we should realize even those we may think are closest to God aren't getting us closer to God, at times. Perhaps, since we're all playing the part at some point it's quite silly to treat any of us on this earth as people we should follow. But the Lord did say to heed the words of His servants, and you need to follow them to do that.
bluebell Posted January 20, 2016 Posted January 20, 2016 1 hour ago, stemelbow said: Kinda interesting to see it that way, huh? I agree. It just makes me think that saying simply don't follow servants of satan seems silly. We're all in this together and none of us are necessarily following others as we live our own lives and forge our own paths. Perhaps, in the spirit of your message we should realize even those we may think are closest to God aren't getting us closer to God, at times. Perhaps, since we're all playing the part at some point it's quite silly to treat any of us on this earth as people we should follow. The Spirit is real. God answers prayers. Follow the people that you believe God is telling you to follow. Don't follow the people that you believe aren't following what God. That's not silly advice, it's just basic wisdom for those who want to follow Christ. 2
bluebell Posted January 20, 2016 Posted January 20, 2016 8 minutes ago, consiglieri said: Assumes facts not in evidence. If this is the standard, then just shut the discussion down right now. No one (including you and me) has said anything yet on this thread that can be considered a proven fact. It's not fair to hold certain posters' ideas to that standard when it's not the standard other posters are asked to meet. 2
stemelbow Posted January 20, 2016 Posted January 20, 2016 5 minutes ago, bluebell said: The Spirit is real. God answers prayers. Follow the people that you believe God is telling you to follow. Don't follow the people that you believe aren't following what God. That's not silly advice, it's just basic wisdom for those who want to follow Christ. I say hear and listen, employ good advice and ideas, no matter that source. I'm not into this following people, per se, because we're all prone to make errors. if I follow someone because they've given good advice in the past, then I'm with them when they err. I think this is a problem in the Church. Because we think the leaders are something more than mortals who err, or at least we treat them as such.
CV75 Posted January 20, 2016 Posted January 20, 2016 15 minutes ago, consiglieri said: Assumes facts not in evidence. To whom was this comment directed? Jesus said: “Blessed are ye if ye shall give heed unto the words of these twelve whom I have chosen from among you to minister unto you, and to be your servants; and unto them I have given power … therefore blessed are ye if ye shall believe in me…” (3 Nephi 12:1) “I say unto all the Twelve: Arise and gird up your loins, take up your cross, follow me, and feed my sheep. …Whosoever receiveth my word receiveth me, and whosoever receiveth me, receiveth those, the First Presidency, whom I have sent, whom I have made counselors for my name’s sake unto you. …For unto you, the Twelve, and those, the First Presidency, who are appointed with you to be your counselors and your leaders, is the power of this priesthood given, for the last days and for the last time, in the which is the dispensation of the fulness of times. Which power you hold, in connection with all those who have received a dispensation at any time from the beginning of the creation; For verily I say unto you, the keys of the dispensation, which ye have received, have come down from the fathers, and last of all, being sent down from heaven unto you.” (D&C 112:14-32). “And the arm of the Lord shall be revealed; and the day cometh that they who will not hear the voice of the Lord, neither the voice of his servants, neither give heed to the words of the prophets and apostles, shall be cut off from among the people; …Wherefore, I the Lord, knowing the calamity which should come upon the inhabitants of the earth, called upon my servant Joseph Smith, Jun., and spake unto him from heaven, and gave him commandments; And also gave commandments to others, that they should proclaim these things unto the world; and all this that it might be fulfilled, which was written by the prophets—” (D&C 1:14-18) “ Behold …thou shalt be called a seer, a translator, a prophet, an apostle of Jesus Christ, an elder of the church through the will of God the Father, and the grace of your Lord Jesus Christ …Wherefore, meaning the church, thou shalt give heed unto all his words and commandments which he shall give unto you as he receiveth them, walking in all holiness before me; For his word ye shall receive, as if from mine own mouth, in all patience and faith.” (D&C 21:1–5) I’m sure you can think of more!
stemelbow Posted January 20, 2016 Posted January 20, 2016 34 minutes ago, CV75 said: But the Lord did say to heed the words of His servants, and you need to follow them to do that. But must we heed all their words and treat all their words as if it is from God? That seems to diminish our own paths and our own growth.
bluebell Posted January 20, 2016 Posted January 20, 2016 15 minutes ago, stemelbow said: I say hear and listen, employ good advice and ideas, no matter that source. I'm not into this following people, per se, because we're all prone to make errors. if I follow someone because they've given good advice in the past, then I'm with them when they err. I think this is a problem in the Church. Because we think the leaders are something more than mortals who err, or at least we treat them as such. Someone can be a mortal who errs, and still consistently be a good person to follow. Anyone who has ever grown up with good parents understands this concept. Add into that the knowledge we have that the Spirit is there to confirm to us the truth anytime we have questions, and there isn't a good reason not to follow people that God has told us previously have been called by Him to lead us. 3
RevTestament Posted January 20, 2016 Posted January 20, 2016 22 hours ago, consiglieri said: President Nelson said in his now famous YSA address last week: President Nelson did not define what he meant by "servants of Satan." I would like to know what people here think. And try not to make it personal. Okay? Yes, there are servants of Satan. The thing is they don't usually think of themselves that way. They have oft adopted the views of the world, and are just going about teaching their kids and others the same - those who deny Jesus and His work. There are also those who have been fooled or are just plain lying. When Mohammed wrote "far be it from his [Allah] glory to have a son..." was he serving God or himself or someone else?
CV75 Posted January 20, 2016 Posted January 20, 2016 39 minutes ago, stemelbow said: But must we heed all their words and treat all their words as if it is from God? That seems to diminish our own paths and our own growth. I had the impression you were advocating that there is no one to follow but Jesus, and I don’t think He wants us to seek our own path or grow in a vacuum. Following the Lord’s servants according to the scriptures (see references above) would not diminish His path or our growth. “And the voice of warning shall be unto all people, by the mouths of my disciples, whom I have chosen in these last days. And they shall go forth and none shall stay them, for I the Lord have commanded them. Behold, this is mine authority, and the authority of my servants …What I the Lord have spoken, I have spoken, and I excuse not myself; and though the heavens and the earth pass away, my word shall not pass away, but shall all be fulfilled, whether by mine own voice or by the voice of my servants, it is the same.” (D&C 1: 4-6, 38)
Zakuska Posted January 20, 2016 Posted January 20, 2016 Servants of Satan get their own planet. Sons of God get their own universes.
stemelbow Posted January 20, 2016 Posted January 20, 2016 1 hour ago, bluebell said: Someone can be a mortal who errs, and still consistently be a good person to follow. Anyone who has ever grown up with good parents understands this concept. Add into that the knowledge we have that the Spirit is there to confirm to us the truth anytime we have questions, and there isn't a good reason not to follow people that God has told us previously have been called by Him to lead us. I think it's the term follow that has us at odds. I don't like the idea of following other people, so much as following ideas no matter from whence they come. Mostly because when it comes down to it, I'm going to disagree with any person about something. I can't follow the person if in some measure I disagree. But I can accept their ideas if I agree.
stemelbow Posted January 20, 2016 Posted January 20, 2016 1 hour ago, CV75 said: I had the impression you were advocating that there is no one to follow but Jesus, and I don’t think He wants us to seek our own path or grow in a vacuum. Following the Lord’s servants according to the scriptures (see references above) would not diminish His path or our growth. “And the voice of warning shall be unto all people, by the mouths of my disciples, whom I have chosen in these last days. And they shall go forth and none shall stay them, for I the Lord have commanded them. Behold, this is mine authority, and the authority of my servants …What I the Lord have spoken, I have spoken, and I excuse not myself; and though the heavens and the earth pass away, my word shall not pass away, but shall all be fulfilled, whether by mine own voice or by the voice of my servants, it is the same.” (D&C 1: 4-6, 38) I don't see follow being in this passage, though. I'd agree with the sentiment expressed in this scripture and still say I'm not following any particular person--after all not all that is voiced by Church leaders is God's will.
consiglieri Posted January 20, 2016 Author Posted January 20, 2016 1 hour ago, bluebell said: If this is the standard, then just shut the discussion down right now. No one (including you and me) has said anything yet on this thread that can be considered a proven fact. It's not fair to hold certain posters' ideas to that standard when it's not the standard other posters are asked to meet. I just get tired of the same old dog-eared fallacy that because Jesus said to follow his servants, that automatically means we are supposed to follow the leaders of the LDS Church. That's all. So my terse reply was just short-hand for all that. 1
consiglieri Posted January 20, 2016 Author Posted January 20, 2016 1 hour ago, stemelbow said: But must we heed all their words and treat all their words as if it is from God? That seems to diminish our own paths and our own growth. This is more of the same disingenuous rhetoric about how you have free agency but you have to follow the prophet. It's like calling a steer a bull. He's thankful for the compliment, but he'd much rather have restored what's rightfully his.
consiglieri Posted January 20, 2016 Author Posted January 20, 2016 1 hour ago, RevTestament said: Yes, there are servants of Satan. The thing is they don't usually think of themselves that way. They have oft adopted the views of the world, and are just going about teaching their kids and others the same - those who deny Jesus and His work. There are also those who have been fooled or are just plain lying. When Mohammed wrote "far be it from his [Allah] glory to have a son..." was he serving God or himself or someone else? I would hesitate before calling Mohammed a servant of Satan. Especially in light of the 1976 First Presidency statement suggesting he was a prophet. 1
BlueDreams Posted January 20, 2016 Posted January 20, 2016 On 1/19/2016 at 10:58 AM, consiglieri said: President Nelson said in his now famous YSA address last week: President Nelson did not define what he meant by "servants of Satan." I would like to know what people here think. And try not to make it personal. Okay? I'm pretty sure he was talking about Trump. He can't even quote the bible right.... And it's not personal since I don't know him, nor political because I'm talking about his bible quoting mostly and not his absolutely insane and bigoted policy ideas. I'm aware Nelson said servants, so I'll add just about everybody I disagree with in any way possible on that list too. Consig, i'm so sorry for that. In all seriousness, What BB said sounds pretty good, though I may add some people who distort the gospel message as well to their advantage. With luv, BD 2
CV75 Posted January 20, 2016 Posted January 20, 2016 (edited) 46 minutes ago, stemelbow said: I don't see follow being in this passage, though. I'd agree with the sentiment expressed in this scripture and still say I'm not following any particular person--after all not all that is voiced by Church leaders is God's will. But you see it in the various other references, don’t you! So you should see it when I point out for this passage, the Lord has chosen and authorized disciples to go forth, speak His word, warn, and fulfil His word with expectation that we heed them and follow them, just as in 3 Nephi 12:1. And as in D&C 124: “And if my people will hearken unto my voice, and unto the voice of my servants whom I have appointed to lead my people, behold, verily I say unto you, they shall not be moved out of their place. But if they will not hearken to my voice, nor unto the voice of these men whom I have appointed, they shall not be blest…” Or D&C 70:1-3, “Behold, and hearken, O ye inhabitants of Zion, and all ye people of my church who are afar off, and hear the word of the Lord which I give unto my servant …by the way of commandment unto them. For I give unto them a commandment; wherefore hearken and hear, for thus saith the Lord unto them—I, the Lord, have appointed them, and ordained them to be stewards over the revelations and commandments which I have given unto them, and which I shall hereafter give unto them…” Edited January 20, 2016 by CV75 remove accidental strikeout text
Russell C McGregor Posted January 20, 2016 Posted January 20, 2016 3 hours ago, consiglieri said: Unlike you, Russell, I do not require a drool-cup. My friends call me Russell. Petty cheap-shot merchants who have not the courtesy to introduce themselves can call me Mr McGregor. 1
CV75 Posted January 20, 2016 Posted January 20, 2016 44 minutes ago, consiglieri said: I just get tired of the same old dog-eared fallacy that because Jesus said to follow his servants, that automatically means we are supposed to follow the leaders of the LDS Church. That's all. So my terse reply was just short-hand for all that. LOL but He said to follow the leaders of the LDS Church!
consiglieri Posted January 20, 2016 Author Posted January 20, 2016 36 minutes ago, BlueDreams said: In all seriousness, What BB said sounds pretty good, though I may add some people who distort the gospel message as well to their advantage. With luv, BD The devil can cite Scripture to his purpose.
consiglieri Posted January 20, 2016 Author Posted January 20, 2016 12 minutes ago, Russell C McGregor said: My friends call me Russell. Petty cheap-shot merchants who have not the courtesy to introduce themselves can call me Mr McGregor. It is a capital error to let me know I am getting under your skin.
consiglieri Posted January 20, 2016 Author Posted January 20, 2016 5 minutes ago, CV75 said: LOL but He said to follow the leaders of the LDS Church! Read it again. He never said that. Nor did he say it applied in perpetuity. Just ask Kevin Christenson.
bluebell Posted January 20, 2016 Posted January 20, 2016 37 minutes ago, consiglieri said: I just get tired of the same old dog-eared fallacy that because Jesus said to follow his servants, that automatically means we are supposed to follow the leaders of the LDS Church. That's all. So my terse reply was just short-hand for all that. That makes sense. If CV75 is talking to members of the church (who have a testimony of it) then it doesn't seem unreasonable for him to assume that those members believe that the church is Christ's church and that He is the one who called the prophet and apostles to their current positions. And if someone does believe that, then those verses that CV75 listed are evidence to support his statement. This whole discussion has brought to mind a question. If you don't believe that Jesus is talking about the leaders in the LDS church when He said those things in the scriptures, who do you think Jesus is talking about? What 'servants' are we supposed to take as speaking Jesus's words when they speak, for example? He must have had someone in mind when He gave us that counsel. Who's in the running, in your opinion? 1
RevTestament Posted January 20, 2016 Posted January 20, 2016 43 minutes ago, consiglieri said: I would hesitate before calling Mohammed a servant of Satan. Especially in light of the 1976 First Presidency statement suggesting he was a prophet. A desire to be accepted and liked by the world doesn't translate into truth. The Bible gives us simple truth. Those who deny the Son, deny the Father and are antichrist. The Koran plainly denies the Father has a Son. In fact it says for anyone to claim that God shares His power with others is committing the Sin of Shirk. So you can believe the Koran, or you can believe the Bible and the Book of Mormon, but not both. Just because the Koran spouts off a few truths doesn't make it scripture. It teaches "there is no compulsion in religion" but yet its followers kill anyone esp women who try to leave. If that is not compulsion, what is? Those who follow the Koran follow a false prophet - and if you don't know the penalty for saying that, may I suggest you look it up in the Koran? Then get back with me as to whether Mohammed is "a prophet" of God.
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