Avatar4321 Posted January 14, 2016 Posted January 14, 2016 Quote For the natural man is an enemy to God, and has been from the fall of Adam, and will be, forever and ever, unless he yields to the enticings of the Holy Spirit, and putteth off the natural man and becometh a saint through the atonement of Christ the Lord, and becometh as a child,submissive, meek, humble, patient, full of love, willing to submit to all things which the Lord seeth fit to inflict upon him, even as a child doth submit to his father. Mosiah 3:19 We should all know this scripture, but do we truly live it? Do we submit to the will of the Father? If our car breaks down do we submit to what happened and put our trust in God or do we complain? When we are faced with bad health, injury or death do we submit or complain worry or stress? If we are faced with financial difficulties do we submit to the Lord or murmer? When the Lord inspires our leaders to rebuke us or provides new commands do we submit and seek His will or do as we choose and complain? How much faith do we have in God? Enough to let go and just do as He asks or not? Something that's been my mind. It correlates with discussions here but not inspired by it. 4
Senator Posted January 14, 2016 Posted January 14, 2016 4 hours ago, Avatar4321 said: We should all know this scripture, but do we truly live it? Do we submit to the will of the Father? If our car breaks down do we submit to what happened and put our trust in God or do we complain? When we are faced with bad health, injury or death do we submit or complain worry or stress? If we are faced with financial difficulties do we submit to the Lord or murmer? When the Lord inspires our leaders to rebuke us or provides new commands do we submit and seek His will or do as we choose and complain? How much faith do we have in God? Enough to let go and just do as He asks or not? Something that's been my mind. It correlates with discussions here but not inspired by it. How far should this be taken? Is worrying, getting stressed, mourning, and even moaning sinful human responses? I personally don't think so. This is a great scripture btw to show the culpability of God for all the suffering in our lives. 2
JLHPROF Posted January 14, 2016 Posted January 14, 2016 5 minutes ago, Senator said: How far should this be taken? Is worrying, getting stressed, mourning, and even moaning sinful human responses? I personally don't think so. This is a great scripture btw to show the culpability of God for all the suffering in our lives. It's true. Many of our trials by which we suffer or struggle are sent by the Lord. Many more are self created or just natural to our mortal state. But if passing through the refiner's fire causes us to come out stronger and more pure why is that a bad thing? Much of our sufferring comes from our response to God's trial, not from the trial itself. 1
Avatar4321 Posted January 14, 2016 Author Posted January 14, 2016 It seems to me submitting to God is an act of faith and humility. When then shouldn't we do all in our power to cheerfully submit? 2
Senator Posted January 14, 2016 Posted January 14, 2016 1 hour ago, JLHPROF said: But if passing through the refiner's fire causes us to come out stronger and more pure why is that a bad thing? Didn't say it was.
Senator Posted January 14, 2016 Posted January 14, 2016 1 hour ago, Avatar4321 said: It seems to me submitting to God is an act of faith and humility. When then shouldn't we do all in our power to cheerfully submit? When it's time to mourn. When it's time to moan in pain. If not, why ever give a commission to "mourn with those that mourn", and "comfort those that stand in need of comfort." I don't see the mandate of submitting to God to mean, it always has to be done cheerfully. I think God expects us to mourn. I don't know how you mourn cheerfully. Perhaps there's a nuance there that needs to be explored. He expects us to "work out our salvation with fear and trembling".
Ahab Posted January 14, 2016 Posted January 14, 2016 8 hours ago, Avatar4321 said: We should all know this scripture, but do we truly live it? Do we submit to the will of the Father? If our car breaks down do we submit to what happened and put our trust in God or do we complain? When we are faced with bad health, injury or death do we submit or complain worry or stress? If we are faced with financial difficulties do we submit to the Lord or murmer? When the Lord inspires our leaders to rebuke us or provides new commands do we submit and seek His will or do as we choose and complain? How much faith do we have in God? Enough to let go and just do as He asks or not? Something that's been my mind. It correlates with discussions here but not inspired by it. Watching someone being molded...stretched this way and that way into what our Father is trying to make out of them as long as they allow him to mold them even if with a bit of a fussing and complaining... isn't always a beautiful thing to behold. In fact sometimes it can be almost unbearable to watch. Like watching a small child being disciplined by a loving father instead of the father doing nothing to try to mold his own child. Loud screaming, sometimes. Lots of crying and whimpering. Until finally over many agonizing days of child rearing the child finally starts to show some progress. And then the child becomes a teenager! Sheesh! I think it's amazing that our Father puts up with all that, and it can still be rough sometimes even after our teenage years.
JLHPROF Posted January 14, 2016 Posted January 14, 2016 3 hours ago, Senator said: Didn't say it was. Sorry - " the culpability of God for all the suffering in our lives" didn't sound like a good thing.
The Nehor Posted January 14, 2016 Posted January 14, 2016 3 hours ago, JLHPROF said: Sorry - " the culpability of God for all the suffering in our lives" didn't sound like a good thing. Well, if God wants to claim omnipotence that comes with the territory.
Avatar4321 Posted January 15, 2016 Author Posted January 15, 2016 Is suffering really bad for us though? Some people go to the gym and pay a lot to make themselves suffer because they know that good will come out of it. I'm not saying we should inflict it on others or court pain and suffering but I don't think it's always bad because it creates physical and spiritual growth ifnwe use it wisely
The Nehor Posted January 15, 2016 Posted January 15, 2016 47 minutes ago, Avatar4321 said: Is suffering really bad for us though? Some people go to the gym and pay a lot to make themselves suffer because they know that good will come out of it. I'm not saying we should inflict it on others or court pain and suffering but I don't think it's always bad because it creates physical and spiritual growth ifnwe use it wisely It is not necessarily bad for us. Pain is an evil but it is a necessary one.
consiglieri Posted January 15, 2016 Posted January 15, 2016 17 hours ago, The Nehor said: Well, if God wants to claim omnipotence that comes with the territory. I'm not sure God has ever claimed omnipotence. Although the Greek philosophers claimed it for God and it seems to have stuck. Mormonism radicalized the idea of God to posit a God who does not have all power. If we believe in an omnipotent God, then everything that happens everywhere is how God wants it to happen. That can lead to some knotty theological problems. 2
consiglieri Posted January 15, 2016 Posted January 15, 2016 10 hours ago, The Nehor said: It is not necessarily bad for us. Pain is an evil but it is a necessary one. I think this is arguing from the conclusion that God is omnipotent. The only reason we conclude pain is a necessary evil is because it exists. If God is omnipotent, then pain must exist because God wants it to exist. It is therefore necessary. But if we do not posit God's omnipotence, pain nevertheless exists but is not necessary.
Tacenda Posted January 15, 2016 Posted January 15, 2016 On 1/14/2016 at 7:36 AM, Avatar4321 said: It seems to me submitting to God is an act of faith and humility. When then shouldn't we do all in our power to cheerfully submit? This just seems to be close to masochism to me. 1
Avatar4321 Posted January 15, 2016 Author Posted January 15, 2016 4 hours ago, consiglieri said: I'm not sure God has ever claimed omnipotence. Although the Greek philosophers claimed it for God and it seems to have stuck. Mormonism radicalized the idea of God to posit a God who does not have all power. If we believe in an omnipotent God, then everything that happens everywhere is how God wants it to happen. That can lead to some knotty theological problems. why does having all power preclude allowing others agency or letting things act on their own accord? 1
consiglieri Posted January 15, 2016 Posted January 15, 2016 17 minutes ago, Avatar4321 said: why does having all power preclude allowing others agency or letting things act on their own accord? Ask my wife.
Calm Posted January 15, 2016 Posted January 15, 2016 Pretty much all faiths that I have studied posit God as having all power possible. God is not capable of creating a paradox, such as the classic 'a rock too heavy for God to lift'. Or in LDS doctrine, God cannot create humanity with agency and remove choice from creation at the same time. In essence this is how moral evil/wickedness exists, God knows the best creation is one where man has agency to act for good or ill and thus in his power allows for it while creating the ultimate remedy, the Plan of Salvation as well. The natural disasters, illnesses, etc. may be in a different category and some would say that even if God gave man agency, the world itself could be much better. This is based on assumptions that may or may not be true. Perhaps for the Fall to take place, all of creation had to be given a form that could degrade and mutate into undesirable as well as deirable forms. Perhaps even the nonhuman creations have their own form of agency and the natural evils in the world are a result of that (doesn't mean that even bugs choose right and wrong, but something making that choice acted upon them). There is no logical reason that forces a claim that LDS don't believe in a God that has all power there is and thus is omnipotent. It all depends on the assumptions of what that power is and how good can be best achieved. And there are reasonable assumptions that allow the claim to stand. One does not have to accept them, but it is presumptous to disallow LDS and other believers in an omnipotent God to define their own beliefs as they see fit.
The Nehor Posted January 15, 2016 Posted January 15, 2016 6 hours ago, consiglieri said: I'm not sure God has ever claimed omnipotence. Although the Greek philosophers claimed it for God and it seems to have stuck. Mormonism radicalized the idea of God to posit a God who does not have all power. If we believe in an omnipotent God, then everything that happens everywhere is how God wants it to happen. That can lead to some knotty theological problems. The scriptures are chock full of God claiming it and his prophets claiming it for him.
consiglieri Posted January 15, 2016 Posted January 15, 2016 3 minutes ago, The Nehor said: The scriptures are chock full of God claiming it and his prophets claiming it for him. These are typically in the later scriptures after the Hebrew religion was influenced by ideas from other cultures. The earlier you go in the record, the more you will find instances of a God who is anything but omnipotent. He is a local deity who competes in warfare with deities of other groups. And he doesn't always win. Hence, not omnipotent.
The Nehor Posted January 15, 2016 Posted January 15, 2016 3 minutes ago, consiglieri said: These are typically in the later scriptures after the Hebrew religion was influenced by ideas from other cultures. The earlier you go in the record, the more you will find instances of a God who is anything but omnipotent. He is a local deity who competes in warfare with deities of other groups. And he doesn't always win. Hence, not omnipotent. But the "most correct" Book of Mormon is full of people saying he has all power.
Avatar4321 Posted January 16, 2016 Author Posted January 16, 2016 3 hours ago, consiglieri said: Ask my wife. so you don't know?
Ahab Posted January 16, 2016 Posted January 16, 2016 1 hour ago, The Nehor said: But the "most correct" Book of Mormon is full of people saying he has all power. He has the power of the babe. The babe with the power. All the power of the babe with the power.
JLHPROF Posted January 16, 2016 Posted January 16, 2016 2 hours ago, consiglieri said: not omnipotent. Omnipotence is a false concept anyway. To say anyone has all power is to say there is a finite amount of power in existence. It's like omniscience. There is no end to what can be learned so omniscience is also a false concept. Not something that can be arrived at. God's level of "omniscience and omnipotence" is limited to his sphere of existence, just as ours is. 1
Avatar4321 Posted January 16, 2016 Author Posted January 16, 2016 2 hours ago, consiglieri said: These are typically in the later scriptures after the Hebrew religion was influenced by ideas from other cultures. The earlier you go in the record, the more you will find instances of a God who is anything but omnipotent. He is a local deity who competes in warfare with deities of other groups. And he doesn't always win. Hence, not omnipotent. where does He lose? Who is competing with Him?
The Nehor Posted January 16, 2016 Posted January 16, 2016 7 hours ago, Ahab said: He has the power of the babe. The babe with the power. All the power of the babe with the power. Ahhhhh! You mangled it! And right after Bowie died. You remind me of the babe. What babe? The babe with the power. What power? Thee power of the voodoo. Who do? You do. 1
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