New Church Handbook Policy Fallout Continues

[Bobbieaware]

18 minutes ago, salgare said:

Seems to me the general 10000 foot view of the message of the BoM was one of:

1) The righteous nephites turn wicked

2)The wicked lamenites, like Samuel turn righteous

3)The wicked nephites are totally wiped out.

4)I always thought this is what ETB was trying to warn the saints of.  Yes in deed, is it possible for the very elect to be decieved?

1) Isn't that what the main point of my post was all about?

2) At the time of the final destruction of the Nephites, those who were of Lamanite blood in the Church were no longer known as Lamanites, but all in the Church were subsumed under the heading of Nephites. So at the time of the final destruction all the members of the Church, both those of Nephite descent and those of Lamanite descent, were all entirely wicked.

3) As I said, both those of Nephite descent and those of Lamanite descent within the Church were known as Nephites when the end came. So, if you will, the wicked who were destroyed were those of Lamanite blood as well as Nephite blood.

4) If he were alive today, I can assure you Ezra Taft Benson wouldn't be sympathetic to gay marriage, and would consider this woman who's left the Church to be an apostate.

 

[strappinglad]

" A loving God wouldn't ... " Give me a break ! Read some history and then tell me that not allowing some children to enter baptism until 18 is the cruelest thing God can do or has allowed. I wonder if your friend is as opposed to exposing children to some lifestyles. 

[salgare]

1 minute ago, Bobbieaware said:

1) Isn't that what the main point of my post was all about?

2) At the time of the final destruction of the Nephites, those who were of Lamanite blood in the Church were no longer known as Lamanites, but all in the Church were subsumed under the heading of Nephites. So at the time of the final destruction all the members of the Church, both those of Nephite descent and those of Lamanite descent, were all entirely wicked.

3) As I said, both those of Nephite descent and those of Lamanite descent within the Church were known as Nephites when the end came. So, if you will, the wicked who were destroyed were those of Lamanite blood as well as Nephite blood.

4) If he were alive today, I can assure you Ezra Taft Benson wouldn't be sympathetic to gay marriage, and would consider this woman who's left the Church to be an apostate.

 

It's been so many years ... I suppose I could search.  If I remember some of them might have been found in Fred C. Collier's two volumes of "Unpublished Revelations", so I will not be finding them online.

The basic just is that the Lord will start the cleansing in his own house.  I always interpreted that like in his own ward house, right in SLC, Utah.

You are making a big jump to the conclusion that the Mormon Church is the Nephite church of righteous blood, and that this lamanite of impure blood needs cast out.

This comes back around to the other thread basically "do you really want to know if your conclusion is just and right?"

 

[Avatar4321]

8 minutes ago, strappinglad said:

" A loving God wouldn't ... " Give me a break ! Read some history and then tell me that not allowing some children to enter baptism until 18 is the cruelest thing God can do or has allowed. I wonder if your friend is as opposed to exposing children to some lifestyles. 

It's odd considering we believe that a loving God has had people wait thousands of years for their really distant descendants join the church, build temples, do family history and then go to that templento be baptized for them. But a loving God won't make them wait till age 18 to spare them conflict while under age.

Seems silly to me but what do I know?

Edited January 6, 2016 by Avatar4321

[Robert F. Smith]

4 hours ago, consiglieri said:

.............................................

I expect the ramifications of this new policy are far, wide and deep, and that the fall-out will continue for the indefinite future.

................................................

In a church with a growing intellectual class, there will naturally be more such stories, but the numbers will not be huge.  Your "far, wide, and deep" assumes progressive concerns which don't seem to exist.  Hugh Nibley was a lonely Democrat in Utah County, and 80% of American Mormons voted for Mitt Romney.  In that atmosphere, it is doubtful that such reactions will be found far and wide.

[Hamba Tuhan]

7 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

In that atmosphere, it is doubtful that such reactions will be found far and wide.

Way to kill Consiglieri's obvious glee...

[salgare]

3 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

In a church with a growing intellectual class, there will naturally be more such stories, but the numbers will not be huge.  Your "far, wide, and deep" assumes progressive concerns which don't seem to exist.  Hugh Nibley was a lonely Democrat in Utah County, and 80% of American Mormons voted for Mitt Romney.  In that atmosphere, it is doubtful that such reactions will be found far and wide.

I'm with you that this will not be long lived. One should spend some time on the NOM board to get a feel of the situation many find themselves in.  It's not my original observation but I believe its true and I likely got it from there:

What this policy does as far as the shifting of tares is to help those lingering at the fringes of the in-group out the door.  It now moves a certain percentage of the center out to the fringes as the next potential group needing ejected as the Church moves to a deeper and deeper entrenchment to strict orthodoxy.

[salgare]

I would also like to throw out some wild speculation.

Years back it was noted that the miscarriage rate in the Provo valley area was significantly higher than state/national etc.  This of course was attributed to living for years around Geneva Steel.

I can not help but wonder if higher rates of incidence in the wide spectrum of autism and possibly gender issues have not been somewhat caused by genetic changes caused by our environment over the last four generations of so?

 

[Bobbieaware]

1 hour ago, salgare said:

 

 

It's been so many years ... I suppose I could search.  If I remember some of them might have been found in Fred C. Collier's two volumes of "Unpublished Revelations", so I will not be finding them online.

The basic just is that the Lord will start the cleansing in his own house.  I always interpreted that like in his own ward house, right in SLC, Utah.

You are making a big jump to the conclusion that the Mormon Church is the Nephite church of righteous blood, and that this lamanite of impure blood needs cast out.

This comes back around to the other thread basically "do you really want to know if your conclusion is just and right?"

Hard to follow the points you're trying to make and your line of reasoning. Why are you bringing up Fred Collier?

And just in case you don"t remember, the leaders of the Church today constantly reiterate that it's those who sincerely follow and sustain the living prophets, seers and revelators who will be found in in the arms of safety on the deck of the good.ship Zion, while those who reject the leaders of the Church -- like the lady in question -- are those who are lost at sea without hope unless they repent. In fact, what all this controversy boils down to is who will and who will not follow and sustain the First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve. Trying to make dissenters and apostates who refuse to follow the General Authorities into sympathetic underdogs because they demonstrate a perverse form of integrity by refusing to remain loyal to the Church leadership just won't wash.

Edited January 6, 2016 by Bobbieaware

[The Nehor]

If this is the straw that broke the camel's back I think said camels need to Focus more on their core muscles.

[salgare]

1 hour ago, Avatar4321 said:

You don't seem to realize that it isn't a matter of worthiness. None of us are worthy. That is why we have a Savior.

No, the issue is whether we continue to stand with the Savior or abandon Him when the world challenges His standards.

Some Christians see the sermon on the mound as representative of his standards.

Mormons require a ticket paid for by a previously suggested list to go along with those standards.

I'd suggest the fruits of the Church revile "This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me."

Yes beware of that shifting and the prophecies of the cleansing starting right at the center.

Edited January 6, 2016 by salgare

[salgare]

29 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

If this is the straw that broke the camel's back I think said camels need to Focus more on their core muscles.

All I know Nehor is that it hit me very hard.  My back barely made it but my heart is still broken.

[The Nehor]

2 minutes ago, salgare said:

All I know Nehor is that it hit me very hard.  My back barely made it but my heart is still broken.

Maybe I am a sociopath but my response was "meh".

[salgare]

50 minutes ago, Bobbieaware said:

Hard to follow the points you're trying to make and your line of reasoning. Why are you bringing up Fred Collier?

Two books he wrote, having spent many many hours in the achieves before they were locked down.  I Thought I mentioned them and prophecies dealing with a cleansing that will start in his (Christ's) own house before the New Jerusalem is established.

To put it bluntly, the interpretation suggested is that many members of the Church at that time are toast. 

"And just in case you don"t remember, the leaders of the Church today constantly reiterate that it's those who sincerely follow and sustain the living prophets, seers and revelators who will be found in in the arms of safety on the deck of the good.ship Zion, while those who reject the leaders of the Church -- like the lady in question -- are those who are lost at sea without hope unless they repent."

IMO, unfortunately the leaders of the Church have failed the test of their fruits and those following them are the elect being deceived which are spoken of.

"In fact, what all this controversy boils down to is who will and who will not follow and sustain the First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve"

I very much agree

"Trying to make dissenters and apostates who refuse to follow the General Authorities into sympathetic underdogs because they demonstrate a perverse form of integrity by refusing to remain loyal to the Church leadership just won't wash."

If your calling them sinners and apostates helps you feel better, go for it.  If I was a good Mormon, I suppose I should be calling you to repentance.

[Duncan]

17 minutes ago, salgare said:

Some Christians see the sermon on the mound as representative of his standards.

Mormons require a ticket paid for by a previously suggested list to go along with those standards.

I'd suggest the fruits of the Church revile "This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me."

Yes beware of that shifting and the prophecies of the cleansing starting right at the center.

I think you mean "Mount"

[Avatar4321]

4 minutes ago, salgare said:

Two books he wrote, having spent many many hours in the achieves before they were locked down.  I Thought I mentioned them and prophecies dealing with a cleansing that will start in his (Christ's) own house before the New Jerusalem is established.

To put it bluntly, the interpretation suggested is that many members of the Church at that time are toast. 

"And just in case you don"t remember, the leaders of the Church today constantly reiterate that it's those who sincerely follow and sustain the living prophets, seers and revelators who will be found in in the arms of safety on the deck of the good.ship Zion, while those who reject the leaders of the Church -- like the lady in question -- are those who are lost at sea without hope unless they repent."

IMO, unfortunately the leaders of the Church have failed the test of their fruits and those following them are the elect being deceived which are spoken of.

"In fact, what all this controversy boils down to is who will and who will not follow and sustain the First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve"

I very much agree

"Trying to make dissenters and apostates who refuse to follow the General Authorities into sympathetic underdogs because they demonstrate a perverse form of integrity by refusing to remain loyal to the Church leadership just won't wash."

If your calling them sinners and apostates helps you feel better, go for it.  If I was a good Mormon, I suppose I should be calling you to repentance.

so the brethren have rejected the Lord and instead you know best?

[salgare]

10 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

Maybe I am a sociopath but my response was "meh".

For me Nehor, it had nothing to do with homosexuality.  It was about the abandonment of the most basic principles of the Gospel of Jesus Christ dealing with children.  It was a final nail securing all of the evidences leading up to it, as to the apostasy of the FP/Q12.  This along with the willingness to discard the fringe and entrench even deeper into displaying such a blatant disregard to so many members whom this effects. 

[carbon dioxide]

5 hours ago, consiglieri said:

A close friend of the family posted on her Face Book page last Sunday that she has been struggling to make sense of the new policy on children of gay parents, and simply cannot do so.

She is married in the temple and has three young children with a fourth on the way.

She has given it her best, prayed about it, asked questions of others, and tried to see how this could come from a loving Heavenly Father.

No dice.

She posts that she is no longer able to sustain the First Presidency due to their decision to implement this policy.

She is also not sure whether the LDS Church is a church she should be attending any longer.

I expect the ramifications of this new policy are far, wide and deep, and that the fall-out will continue for the indefinite future.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

For some members, they will choose homosexuality over the the Lord.  It is not the first time this has happened and will not be the last. 

[The Nehor]

2 minutes ago, salgare said:

For me Nehor, it had nothing to do with homosexuality.  It was about the abandonment of the most basic principles of the Gospel of Jesus Christ dealing with children.  It was a final nail securing all of the evidences leading up to it, as to the apostasy of the FP/Q12.  This along with the willingness to discard the fringe and entrench even deeper into displaying such a blatant disregard to so many members whom this effects. 

Yeah, it was not any of that.

[salgare]

11 minutes ago, Duncan said:

I think you mean "Mount"

sorry, my ignorance shows through again, yes Mount, thank you

[carbon dioxide]

4 hours ago, VideoGameJunkie said:

I hope the people who are leaving the church over a policy are realizing theyre throwing away exaltation.

Yeah. Its kind of an interesting thought.  After the end and everyone has been resurrected and been assigned their glory, those in a lower kingdom talk to each other.  One person tells others they were members of the Church but left the church over an issue like this.  I am sure those among them will be amazed.  They will say "You gave up exaltation over THAT?  Wow, I thought I made some dumb decisions but I can't compete with that one."  Perhaps the most interesting thing is that some who leave think they are punishing the Church by them leaving.  They think "Well I just showed the church how wrong they are."  In reality, all they are doing is blowing themselves up.  All that time they spent in the premortal world preparing for exaltation and they just wash it all away.  That is a trillion times worse than someone spending years to get accepted to medical school but right before they get accepted they decide to rob a store and get 20 years in prison. 

Edited January 6, 2016 by carbon dioxide

[salgare]

2 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

Yeah, it was not any of that.

At least not intended for public view, but foolishly send down the FP->SP channel and it ended up seeing the light of day.  Man did they do some back peddling after that.

[readstoomuch]

Handbook change was made for the rare question of what do you do if a child of a SSM couples wants to be blessed or baptized.  Blown out of proportion and on purpose by John Dehlin.  Liberal, socially active Mormons assume the worst motives and threaten to or leave the Church.  As they said in multiple different forums, loving committed people should be able to marry.  Then it comes out that most SSM couples don`t consider fidelity part of their marriage.  Gay members of this board try to change the subject by pointing out that heterosexuals commit adultery also or it is just another way of attacking the gay agenda.  Some liberals justify their beliefs and others actions on "Jesus taught us to love, not keep commandments."  In the meantime, God`s standard is for fidelity within marriage.  I know that was what I was taught and then taught my children.  That is how I see the chain of events the last few months.

I wish the PR of the Church had clarified early on that children of divorced parents where one is in SSM can continue their path within the Church with all of their ordinances.  I waited around for the facts to come out.  SSM and a number of different signs of the decay of nuclear families are more obvious than ever.  Given the legal activism of the gay agenda, once SSM was legalized, the Church probably felt forced to label LDS who entered into a SSM as apostates.  Attraction and behavior is one thing, but labeling it as "marriage"  was the last straw.   

It is not going to be easy to be Lds.  God will expect us to live the gospel and also show as much love and tolerance to all of our brothers and sisters that we can, regardless of their actions.  Even when we Lds are persecuted for speaking out about social causes we don't agree with.

Edited January 6, 2016 by readstoomuch
incomplete sentence

[The Nehor]

6 minutes ago, salgare said:

At least not intended for public view, but foolishly send down the FP->SP channel and it ended up seeing the light of day.  Man did they do some back peddling after that.

Still don't care and no, I do not think this was a violation of basic principles or proof of apostasy or whatever.

[sunstoned]

5 hours ago, Bobbieaware said:

She isn't the first and won't be the last to leave. Before the test of the refiner's fire of the last days is over, there will likely be tens of thousands -- or even hundreds of thousands -- who will leave the fold, turning against the prophets for speaking "hard things." Every other dispensation of the Gospel has faced a massive abandonment of the Church and a turning away from the prophets, so why should the Dipensation of the Fulness of Times be any different. The day will surely come when the prophets of the Restored Church of Christ will become so unpopular in the eyes of a world ripening in iniquity that only those with the strongest testimonies will be able hold on and endure the till Savior returns. So be it. Those who successfully weather the coming storm with their faith and testimonies still intact will be crowned with the fullness of eternal glory.

I am not sure why you would categorize this as a refiners fire event.  It seems like the lady followed the sound advice given in our scriptures and over the pulpit to pray about troubling issues and to follow the prompting of the holy spirit.  It sounds like she has done this.