Forget Joseph Smith, what about Lorenzo Snow's polygamy?

[Walden]

26 minutes ago, Danzo said:

The text itself strongly suggests that Joseph Smith was commanded to practice it.  You have to pretty much ignore the actual text to think that Joseph Smith didn't practice.

 

But that might mean that you would have to have actually read the text, (its a long section, its at the back of the book)

 

 

Say what you want about "suggestions" from the text, but in LDS teachings, specifically during the 1970s-1990s when I was in the church (pre-internet age) the polygamy of Brigham Young and Parley Pratt, etc. was openly taught and discussed in church. The polygamy of Joseph Smith was not taught or openly discussed.

For Brigham Young and later practitioners of polygamy, the church didn't leave it to "strong suggestions" from a nuanced reading of D&C 132 to make an inference about their practice of polygamy, they taught it as quite matter-of-fact and in a direct manner, so why the subterfuge regarding Joseph Smith's polygamy?

[KevinG]

On 12/16/2015 at 2:59 PM, VideoGameJunkie said:

Good to know. If I'm still single by the age of 57 I'll start hitting on laurels in hopes to find an eternal companion since God never said it was wrong.

If you think "hitting on" women is the way to an eternal companion, I may have found one of your issues with successful courtship.

[KevinG]

4 minutes ago, Walden said:

Say what you want about "suggestions" from the text, but in LDS teachings, specifically during the 1970s-1990s when I was in the church (pre-internet age) the polygamy of Brigham Young and Parley Pratt, etc. was openly taught and discussed in church. The polygamy of Joseph Smith was not taught or openly discussed.

For Brigham Young and later practitioners of polygamy, the church didn't leave it to "strong suggestions" from a nuanced reading of D&C 132 to make an inference about their practice of polygamy, they taught it as quite matter-of-fact and in a direct manner, so why the subterfuge regarding Joseph Smith's polygamy?

Given as a Methodist friend of a young Latter-day Saint in the 70s and 80s I learned about Joseph's polygamy through his family I'd say you have a terrible Sunday School teacher to blame.

[Russell C McGregor]

15 minutes ago, Walden said:

From my experience, they are the minority and the exception to the rule.

For a moment I thought you were talking about those who were ignorant of Joseph's polygamy.

To say nothing of those who try to weaponise their own ignorance.

 

[rockpond]

On 12/15/2015 at 1:36 PM, VideoGameJunkie said:

Joseph Smith gets a bad rep for his polygamous sealings, but they didn't produce any children or have sexual relations. What should be of more interest is Lorenzo Snow's polygamous lifestyle and age difference where he did have children with his young wives.

At age 30, LDS Church Apostle Lorenzo Snow married 18-year old Charlotte Squires.

At age 31, Snow married 33-year old Mary Adaline Goddard.

At age 31, he married 18-year old Sarah Ann Prichard.

At age 32, he married 26-year old Harriet Amelia Squires.

At age 34, he married 17-year old Eleanor Houtz.

At age 39, he married 24-year old Caroline Horton.

At age 43, he married 17-year old Mary Elizabeth Houtz.

At age 44, he married 16-year old Phoebe Amelia Woodruff. (had 7 children together)

At age 57, he married 16-year old Sara Minnie Ephramina Jensen. (had a child a year later. Lorenzo had actually been courting her since she was 14, but married at 16)

Notice the age gaps here with relations happening. I don't see why Joseph Smith is the key target all the time when talking about polygamy while it seems the lifestyle of soon to be prophet Lorenzo Snow seemed worse.

And what's interesting is how Wilford Woodruff was trying to give his daughter Phoebe away at a young age. First he tried to give her to Brigham Young when she was 14 and Brigham was 56. It seemed women were treated like cows back in the polygamy days as quoted by Heber C Kimball; " I think no more of taking another wife than I do of buying a cow."

I see a lot of the FLDS and Warren Jeffs in these practices and I hope women weren't treated like cows 150 years ago.

Fortunately, all these marriages are ordained of God because they are each between one man and one woman.  That's what really matters, right?

#traditionalmarriage

[Russell C McGregor]

1 minute ago, rockpond said:

Fortunately, all these marriages are ordained of God because they are each between one man and one woman.  That's what really matters, right?

#traditionalmarriage

It's not the only thing that matters. But it is a rather definitional of what an authentic marriage is, yes.

Now you're not trying to derail this thread into yet another rehash of your favourite hobby-horse, are you?

Don't we have enough of those already?

[busybee]

28 minutes ago, rockpond said:

Fortunately, all these marriages are ordained of God because they are each between one man and one woman.  That's what really matters, right?

#traditionalmarriage

[KevinG]

30 minutes ago, rockpond said:

Fortunately, all these marriages are ordained of God because they are each between one man and one woman.  That's what really matters, right?

#traditionalmarriage

Ordained of God means what God ordains.  That can very from season to season depending on the needs of God's people.

Of course this has been explained numerous times but it doesn't fit the narrative you so desperately want to sell us.

[Walden]

56 minutes ago, KevinG said:

Given as a Methodist friend of a young Latter-day Saint in the 70s and 80s I learned about Joseph's polygamy through his family I'd say you have a terrible Sunday School teacher to blame.

Yes, you are right, the dozens of Sunday School teachers, several Priesthood teachers and 3 seminary teachers and the Institute teacher that I had are all to blame, there can be absolutely no fault found with the church, ever.

Would you seriously argue that prior to the internet age, the common knowledge of the majority of church members regarding the polygamy practiced by Joseph Smith was equivalent to their knowledge and the lessons they learned in Sunday School regarding the polygamy practiced by Brigham Young? 

[KevinG]

1 minute ago, Walden said:

Yes, you are right, the dozens of Sunday School teachers, several Priesthood teachers and 3 seminary teachers and the Institute teacher that I had are all to blame, there can be absolutely no fault found with the church, ever.

Would you seriously argue that prior to the internet age, the common knowledge of the majority of church members regarding the polygamy practiced by Joseph Smith was equivalent to their knowledge and the lessons they learned in Sunday School regarding the polygamy practiced by Brigham Young? 

Seeing as they were working for the church the fault does reside within the church.  But rather than blame some mythical conspiracy to deny Joseph Smith's polygamy, when it was plainly published by church sources, I'd be more likely to blame the cadre of shrinking violets who didn't like to deal with our history, and downplayed it.  Just as many Mormons do today.  My prescription is get over yourself, and be proud of your heritage.  I doubt the pioneers would want us apologizing for their faith.

[Danzo]

1 hour ago, Walden said:

Say what you want about "suggestions" from the text, but in LDS teachings, specifically during the 1970s-1990s when I was in the church (pre-internet age) the polygamy of Brigham Young and Parley Pratt, etc. was openly taught and discussed in church. The polygamy of Joseph Smith was not taught or openly discussed.

For Brigham Young and later practitioners of polygamy, the church didn't leave it to "strong suggestions" from a nuanced reading of D&C 132 to make an inference about their practice of polygamy, they taught it as quite matter-of-fact and in a direct manner, so why the subterfuge regarding Joseph Smith's polygamy?

Sounds like you didn't read your scriptures, That's OK, a lot of members don't, but it is not as if it is the churches fault. The Church is constantly reminding us to have daily scripture study.

They scriptures don't talk about Brigham Young's, Polygamy, but they do talk about Joseph Smith's, so your conversations about polygamy were not based on the scriptures.

 

[Danzo]

35 minutes ago, Walden said:

Yes, you are right, the dozens of Sunday School teachers, several Priesthood teachers and 3 seminary teachers and the Institute teacher that I had are all to blame, there can be absolutely no fault found with the church, ever.

Would you seriously argue that prior to the internet age, the common knowledge of the majority of church members regarding the polygamy practiced by Joseph Smith was equivalent to their knowledge and the lessons they learned in Sunday School regarding the polygamy practiced by Brigham Young? 

It sound like you  are to blame for not reading the scriptures.

 

 

[Walden]

46 minutes ago, Danzo said:

It sound like you  are to blame for not reading the scriptures.

 

 

CFR, please reference the scripture that details Joseph Smith's multiple wives. If the best that you can do is D&C 132, it does no such thing; it merely records the law of polygamy as commanded by God (and talks a lot about Abraham and David's wives, but not Joseph's wives), but in no such way discusses or teaches about the multiple wives taken by Joseph Smith, which occurred prior to the revelation received in 1843 (though recently acknowledged with the update to the chapter header).

I see a law handed down to Joseph in D&C 132, but no discussion of the wives that he had already taken.

[Calm]

4 hours ago, Walden said:

From my experience, they are the minority and the exception to the rule.

That doesn't answer my question.

[Walden]

15 minutes ago, Calm said:

That doesn't answer my question.

You mean your question regarding how a minority of LDS followers when I was in the church (70s-90s) were aware of Joseph Smith's polygamy? My best guess is that they are church history wonks/buffs who found out about it through their own independent studies. Or maybe they had a teacher in priesthood who veered off-script from the instruction manual lesson on D&C 132 one Sunday and became enlightened in that manner. Maybe they discovered it while doing some genealogy. 

The concept of Joseph Smith's polygamy may have been discussed in some circles, but it certainly was not taught as part of standard church education material/instruction manual like the polygamy of later prophets (Young, Taylor, etc.)

Anyway, however they learned of it, their knowledge of Joseph Smith's polygamy was unlikely the product of knowledge gained through Church-published lesson manuals, which seems odd considering the lessons we had about D&C 132 and the practice of polygamy in the early church, in which the Church lesson manuals did refer to Brigham Young's polygamy, but no mention of Joseph Smith's polygamy. 

[Danzo]

2 hours ago, Walden said:

CFR, please reference the scripture that details Joseph Smith's multiple wives. If the best that you can do is D&C 132, it does no such thing; it merely records the law of polygamy as commanded by God (and talks a lot about Abraham and David's wives, but not Joseph's wives), but in no such way discusses or teaches about the multiple wives taken by Joseph Smith, which occurred prior to the revelation received in 1843 (though recently acknowledged with the update to the chapter header).

I see a law handed down to Joseph in D&C 132, but no discussion of the wives that he had already taken.

Did you read verse 52?, What about verse 55?

These verses did not even raise the question with you when you were pondering them as part of your scripture study?

How did you read these verses?

 

Edited December 18, 2015 by Danzo

[Calm]

 

Quote

 

The concept of Joseph Smith's polygamy may have been discussed in some circles, but it certainly was not taught as part of standard church education material/instruction manual like the polygamy of later prophets (Young, Taylor, etc.)

Anyway, however they learned of it, their knowledge of Joseph Smith's polygamy was unlikely the product of knowledge gained through Church-published lesson manuals

 

 

 

Or perhaps they were one of the many young adult Institute students at the time that took the Church History course and actually read their text's*** pages 520-527 where it gives details of the revelation, names and dates of marriages, including the names of 6, maybe 7 or more of Joseph's own wives and some on Emma's unhappines with the principle.

****Joseph Smith and the Restoration by Ivan J. Barrett, my husband was one of those students and we still have his copy of his student manual which is how I found the page numbers.

And after that particular text was discontinued, while not as detailed, Joseph's personal involvement including the name of Louisa Beaman as possibly his first plural wife was written in the text of the Church History in the Fulness of Times, which has been available online for a number of years, including at lds.org.

Edited December 18, 2015 by Calm

[JLHPROF]

5 hours ago, Walden said:

From my experience, they are the minority and the exception to the rule.

You mean the ones that actually read D&C 132?

•  you have inquired of my hand to know and understand wherein I, the Lord, justified my servants Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, as also Moses, David and Solomon, my servants, as touching the principle and doctrine of their having many wives and concubines
• 2 Behold, and lo, I am the Lord thy God, and will answer thee as touching this matter.
•  3 Therefore, prepare thy heart to receive and obey the instructions which I am about to give unto you; for all those who have this law revealed unto them must obey the same.

and

•  32 Go ye, therefore, and do the works of Abraham; enter ye into my law and ye shall be saved.
•  33 But if ye enter not into my law ye cannot receive the promise of my Father, which he made unto Abraham.
•  34 God commanded Abraham, and Sarah gave Hagar to Abraham to wife. And why did she do it? Because this was the law; and from Hagar sprang many people. This, therefore, was fulfilling, among other things, the promises.

and of course

•  52 And let mine handmaid, Emma Smith, receive all those that have been given unto my servant Joseph, and who are virtuous and pure before me; and those who are not pure, and have said they were pure, shall be destroyed, saith the Lord God.
• 53 For I am the Lord thy God, and ye shall obey my voice; and I give unto my servant Joseph that he shall be made ruler over many things; for he hath been faithful over a few things, and from henceforth I will strengthen him.

and

•  55 But if she will not abide this commandment, then shall my servant Joseph do all things for her, even as he hath said; and I will bless him and multiply him and give unto him an hundred-fold in this world, of fathers and mothers, brothers and sisters, houses and lands, wives and children, and crowns of eternal lives in the eternal worlds.

 

So I see just in D&C 132 God revealing this law to Joseph and telling him that makes him need to obey it.  I see God commanding Joseph to do the works of Abraham describe as receiving plural wives.  I see Emma being commanded to receive those that have been given (past tense, already happened) to Joseph.  I see Joseph being promised multiple wives in THIS life by the Lord.

No, there is no teaching in the scriptures that Joseph lived polygamy. 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited December 18, 2015 by JLHPROF

[sunstoned]

15 hours ago, KevinG said:

Ordained of God means what God ordains.  That can very from season to season depending on the needs of God's people.

Of course this has been explained numerous times but it doesn't fit the narrative you so desperately want to sell us.

It has been discussed numerous times. But the fact that this topic keeps coming up tells me that many explanations have not been that  convincing.

[JLHPROF]

1 hour ago, sunstoned said:

It has been discussed numerous times. But the fact that this topic keeps coming up tells me that many explanations have not been that  convincing.

Or that people frequently refuse to see reason.

[stemelbow]

14 hours ago, Calm said:

 

 

 

Or perhaps they were one of the many young adult Institute students at the time that took the Church History course and actually read their text's*** pages 520-527 where it gives details of the revelation, names and dates of marriages, including the names of 6, maybe 7 or more of Joseph's own wives and some on Emma's unhappines with the principle.

****Joseph Smith and the Restoration by Ivan J. Barrett, my husband was one of those students and we still have his copy of his student manual which is how I found the page numbers.

And after that particular text was discontinued, while not as detailed, Joseph's personal involvement including the name of Louisa Beaman as possibly his first plural wife was written in the text of the Church History in the Fulness of Times, which has been available online for a number of years, including at lds.org.

No offense, Calm, but it's kinda a tragedy that some would argue for openness and forthrightness about polygamy when very little is said about it at all, and most of the marriages aren't mentioned.  That is mentioning 6", or maybe 7" of Joseph's wives and "some on Emma's unhappiness" doesn't really speak to openness and forthrightness.  And to think other manuals, courses and such were even far less open about it all.  7 pages out of hundreds to address such a widely debated, concerning, misunderstood and to most troubling topic isn't really doing it justice, I'd say. 

[KevinG]

2 hours ago, sunstoned said:

It has been discussed numerous times. But the fact that this topic keeps coming up tells me that many explanations have not been that  convincing.

...and yet the imaginary machinations of conspiratorial apostles continue to be repeated.  Go figure?

[rodheadlee]

20 hours ago, Tacenda said:

Can you name one time this was discussed in Gospel Doctrine or PH or RS, that you know about?  

1982, August, Rodheadlee's living room in a missionary discussion. Does that count?

[KevinG]

14 hours ago, Calm said:

 

...which has been available online for a number of years, including at lds.org.

One of the best places to hide something from the members of the Church.  Second only to the scriptures.

[stemelbow]

2 minutes ago, KevinG said:

...and yet the imaginary machinations of conspiratorial apostles continue to be repeated.  Go figure?

It's naïve to think apostles and prophets haven't strictly avoided this issue on several occasions.  Since it is a tough topic and certainly to many people one without a clear answer, it's no wonder apostles and prophets, who too see through a glass darkly, can't adequately answer the issues raised concerning polygamy.  I don't blame them, but as I said, it's naïve to think they don't avoid it purposefully.  They certainly don't want to have to address it these days.