Forget Joseph Smith, what about Lorenzo Snow's polygamy?

[BookofMormonLuvr]

1 hour ago, Robert F. Smith said:

None of Lorenzo Snow's marriages were to women younger than 16, and the age differences aside, that was not an unusual age for marriage in those days.  You are shocked and see his lifestyle as "worse" than Joseph Smith, and suggest that women were being treated like cows then.  In fact, the record of polygyny among the LDS in those times bespeaks an admirable sisterhood among the wives -- who came to be very independent and strong women, rather than the chattel you depict them.  Any comparison with Warren Jeffs, who was raping both prepubescent boys and girls, is sick.

Yet, when the famous crooner, Bing Crosby, married a very young woman late in life, and started a second family, he was only admired.  People often adopt situational ethics and forget that yesteryear was a different world than today.  Presentism reigns supreme.

The cow reference reminds me of a Marcello Mastroianni movie in which he did refer to a particular woman as a "cow."

It was Bro. Heber that compared women to cows. VGJ just continued using the comparison

. 

Edited December 16, 2015 by BookofMormonLuvr

[Calm]

BANNED TOPICS include but are not limited to:....
• Sexually themed threads or discussions of sexual behavior of LDS leaders, past or present

[Calm]

45 minutes ago, BookofMormonLuvr said:

It was Bro. Heber that compared women to cows.

. 

CFR please.

[Calm]

6 hours ago, VideoGameJunkie said:

Here's info about Joseph Smith's wife Helen Mar Kimball's life at 14 years old accepting polygamy eventually, but suffering emotional scars along the way. It makes you wonder how many of the other young teens and women in polygamy felt deep down.

If by chance you are using the wives of Joseph Smith site, you should be aware that several years ago I took apart how they misused Helen's comments and then they spliced them in such a way to make it seem like she was upset when she wasn't.  I would suggest reading her actual autobiography rather than relying on their unreliable recreation of her material.

I am not suggesting she was entirely happy with the situation at all times, but I find it very disrespectful to her to twist her words into a position she did not hold while claiming one is horrified about what others did to her....or to repeat the twisting without making an effort to find out it is true or not as you have here.

http://www.boap.org/LDS/Early-Saints/HWhitney.html

Edited December 16, 2015 by Calm

[The Nehor]

2 hours ago, consiglieri said:

But we must admit that President Snow's society was much more closely related in time and culture to ours than Abraham.

Not really. In time maybe I am less convinced about culture.

[The Nehor]

1 hour ago, VideoGameJunkie said:

Ya imagine if you had a Mia maid or laurel aged daughter. Would you be cool if an apostle asked to marry them and then sleep with your laurel daughter? And imagine if that apostle was 40 or 50 years older than her and already has other wives and even other teenage brides. Now imagine one of the apostles claims he thinks as much about choosing cows as he does about wives. That should paint a picture of how bad polygamy was. And I'm not even going into polyandry.

Welcome to the majority of recorded history minus the "apostle" bit.

[VideoGameJunkie]

23 minutes ago, Calm said:

CFR please.

Didn't you see the quote I posted from him? 

[VideoGameJunkie]

30 minutes ago, Calm said:

BANNED TOPICS include but are not limited to:....
• Sexually themed threads or discussions of sexual behavior of LDS leaders, past or present

That seems like an easy way to erase the dark history of the church while ignoring the victims.

[Calm]

Did you provide a reference for that quote or just the quote?  The second without the source information is not an answer to a CFR.

Edited December 16, 2015 by Calm

[Russell C McGregor]

6 hours ago, VideoGameJunkie said:

And what's interesting is how Wilford Woodruff was trying to give his daughter Phoebe away at a young age. First he tried to give her to Brigham Young when she was 14 and Brigham was 56. It seemed women were treated like cows back in the polygamy days as quoted by Heber C Kimball; " I think no more of taking another wife than I do of buying a cow."

The set of all people discussing 19th century Mormon polygamy can be divided into two non-intersecting subsets: those who cite that bogus bit of propaganda as if it had any plausible claim to be authentic, and the honest ones.

 

[Russell C McGregor]

3 hours ago, sunstoned said:

At 57 year old man marring a 18 year old girl is not of god.  That is for sure.

Call for references, please.

Where is God on record saying this?

 

[Russell C McGregor]

19 minutes ago, VideoGameJunkie said:

Didn't you see the quote I posted from him? 

It's not a quote from him. It's a quote from a novelised autobiography that was attributed to him by the novelist. I mean autobiographer.

 

[VideoGameJunkie]

8 minutes ago, Russell C McGregor said:

The set of all people discussing 19th century Mormon polygamy can be divided into two non-intersecting subsets: those who cite that bogus bit of propaganda as if it had any plausible claim to be authentic, and the honest ones.

 

So you don't believe people married teens and other men's wives during the days of polygamy? Why don't you believe? I would love for it all not to be true so prove it's just propaganda and untrue. I want someone to.

[BookofMormonLuvr]

51 minutes ago, Calm said:

CFR please.

This is what I came up with. Probably not a entirely reliable source:

"I think no more of taking another wife than I do of buying a cow." - Apostle Heber C. Kimball, The Twenty Seventh Wife, Irving Wallace, p. 101. 

[Russell C McGregor]

6 minutes ago, VideoGameJunkie said:

So you don't believe people married teens and other men's wives during the days of polygamy? Why don't you believe? I would love for it all not to be true so prove it's just propaganda and untrue. I want someone to.

I'm saying that if you want to establish yourself for all time as having negative credibility, just keep on trotting out that fabricated Kimball quote. That'll do the trick for sure.

 

[Calm]

5 minutes ago, BookofMormonLuvr said:

The Twenty Seventh Wife, Irving Wallace 

Which is a fictional book.

Any reason why we should assume it is close to anything that Heber C Kimball actually said?

[VideoGameJunkie]

5 minutes ago, Russell C McGregor said:

I'm saying that if you want to establish yourself for all time as having negative credibility, just keep on trotting out that fabricated Kimball quote. That'll do the trick for sure.

 

Negative credibility is the church lying about Joseph Smiths polygamy for years before the current essays. What about credibility there?

[BookofMormonLuvr]

11 minutes ago, Calm said:

Which is a fictional book.

Any reason why we should assume it is close to anything that Heber C Kimball actually said?

Nope, and I withdraw my defense of VGJ in reference to the "cow" issue.

Heber did say something about not picking wives in the field and getting them into the "fold" in Utah first:

"I say to those who are elected to go on missions, remember they are not your sheep: they belong to Him that sends you. Then do not make a choice of any of those sheep; do not make selections before they are brought home and put into the fold. You under stand that. Amen" - Apostle Heber C. Kimball, Journal of Discourses, vol. 6, p.256.

A few of the older Apostles, from my recollection, didn't exactly follow this same counsel in their younger days in the field.

[VideoGameJunkie]

51 minutes ago, Calm said:

Did you provide a reference for that quote or just the quote?  The second without the source information is not an answer to a CFR.

Would you even believe the source unless it's from FAIR?

http://community.babycenter.com/post/a41795653/quotes_from_heber_c._kimball_-_with_a_question_at_the_end.....

http://www.azquotes.com/quote/771824

https://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20100525144721AA0pVHd

I'm just linking sites that quoted the quote.

[VideoGameJunkie]

27 minutes ago, Russell C McGregor said:

I'm saying that if you want to establish yourself for all time as having negative credibility, just keep on trotting out that fabricated Kimball quote. That'll do the trick for sure.

 

Why should I be worried about credibility from a quote that's been posted numerous times online, if the church isn't worried about credibility for lying about Joseph Smith's polygamy for years, or the credibility of marrying other men's wives and girls that would be in young women.

[Calm]

One can quote a made up quote from a hundred sources that don't take the time to check its credibility.  A lie does not change to truth just because it is repeated over and over.

[Calm]

26 minutes ago, VideoGameJunkie said:

Why should I be worried about credibility....

So in your view, two wrongs make a right?

[VideoGameJunkie]

Just now, Calm said:

One can quote a made up quote from a hundred sources that don't take the time to check its credibility.  A lie does not change to truth just because it is repeated over and over.

You mean like the lie by the church that was repeated over and over again that Joseph Smith never practiced polygamy that was said for years until the essays?

[VideoGameJunkie]

1 minute ago, Calm said:

So in your view, two wrongs make a right?

I'm just a measely lowly sinner. I'm not the one true church making lies and cover ups for decades.

[Hamba Tuhan]

3 minutes ago, VideoGameJunkie said:

You mean like the lie by the church that was repeated over and over again that Joseph Smith never practiced polygamy that was said for years until the essays?

CFR, specifically that 'the church' taught that Joseph Smith never practised polygamy.