Handbook Update, Gay Marriage, Apostasy, Resignations... (Merged Thread)

[Buckeye]

Right.   It was a good thing to use an attorney.  (What requires the church to "interact with the attorney?"  Some legal rule?)

 

I haven't seen this guy's forms, but I imagine his notice letter to the church includes a statement that all communication should go through him. We can quibble over whether the church is legally bound by that, but it's not hard to imagine that the church would honor the request rather than risk liability and/or bad press coverage from a suit.

[rockpond]

I wonder if there are any people who got caught up in the mass resignation mania who wish that they had been a little more patient? It seems that some people got swept away with emotion, and I wonder if there is any buyer's remorse a few days later.

 

It seems to me that nearly 100% of those who resigned their membership over this issue were already on the fringe. That is, they were already critical of doctrine and policy to begin with, or had pre-existing deep-seated issues. While it's fashionable to tout "active, believing members" who got swept away in the mania, I see very little evidence that this actually happened.

 

In talking to my stake president Sunday, he told me that our large stake has had only one resignation over this (I had asked about several gay members of the stake we have both worked with, and none of them were among them). I think the attempts to inflate the participation at the Salt Lake mass resignation event (thousands!) is pretty telling. And, I have the feeling that many of the people who were there were a) non-members and b) attend things like that a lot. 

 

I found the frequent mention of the attorney with a table and forms to expedite to be very odd. The process is already simple enough as it is. No attorney is needed, nor does an attorney helping with forms expedite anything. 

 

Media circus, and blatant attempts at making this seem bigger than it was.

 

I doubt there are any regrets.  The "clarification" reduced the number of people impacted by the policy but the message remained the same.  And I think it's that message that is causing people to resign.

[KevinG]

When people resort to using lawyers I think there may be several contributing factors or possibilities:

- Fear that their request will be ignored

- Desire to make a statement (privately or publicly)

- A past experience with non-response from a Ward or Stake

- Inside baseball like family members in leadership, trust issues

 

It probably isn't helpful for anyone to assume the worst of each other, but when things have degraded to the point someone is willing to put a resignation in paper, the basic trust is probably already gone.

[gopher]

Still easier to resign from the LDS church than to cancel Comcast cable.

[KevinG]

Still easier to resign from the LDS church than to cancel Comcast cable.

 

Welcome Gopher.  Great first post!

 

...and don't get me started on removing AOL from my PC.

[ERayR]

I haven't seen this guy's forms, but I imagine his notice letter to the church includes a statement that all communication should go through him. We can quibble over whether the church is legally bound by that, but it's not hard to imagine that the church would honor the request rather than risk liability and/or bad press coverage from a suit.

 

Seems like a really good way to slow the process down.  A very good idea;  put an attorney in the middle of things.

[Buckeye]

Welcome Gopher.  Great first post!

 

...and don't get me started on removing AOL from my PC.

 

Gopher officially has the highest "rep points per post" ratio on the board. Do we have a minimum at-bats requirement or should we just crown him MVP now?

[JAHS]

To find out what percent regret resigning we first have to determine how many actually resigned.
Just reading the headlines of the past few days:

 

Thousands Quit Mormon Church To Protest Anti-Gay Policy

Over 1800 Mormons cut ties with Church

About 1500 Mormons Quit Church in Mass Resignation 

3500 Leave LDS Church In Mass Resignation

Hundreds rally against new Mormon policy

Over 1,000 Mormons march together and quit church en-masse

 

So what was the final count really? 

[Buckeye]

Seems like a really good way to slow the process down.  A very good idea;  put an attorney in the middle of things.

 

Why would it slow things down? The guy is giving a free service so he has no incentive to take his time. From his explanation the process is sped up because there is no waiting period (which others addressed above) and no attempt for local counsel to try to contact. It's the sending down to local leaders that slows things down. If headquarters does everything on its own the process goes the quickest.

[Buckeye]

 

To find out what percent regret resigning we first have to determine how many actually resigned.

Just reading the headlines of the past few days:

 

Thousands Quit Mormon Church To Protest Anti-Gay Policy

Over 1800 Mormons cut ties with Church

About 1500 Mormons Quit Church in Mass Resignation 

3500 Leave LDS Church In Mass Resignation

Hundreds rally against new Mormon policy

Over 1,000 Mormons march together and quit church en-masse

 

So what was the final count really? 

 

 

Only the church knows. And they don't publish the stat. My guess is that most of those who have resigned recently are not part of the mass rally.

[rockpond]

The latest policy revision reduces the reach if not the type of discrimination put on children of gay parents. Fewer kids will be effected. Whether or not people will be okay with that is hard to predict. 

 

I posted a similar response before reading your post above.  

 

But I will add that I am definitely not okay with it.  Like a number of church members, even though I didn't like the slow pace, I could at least see that the Church was moving in the right direction post-2008.  This policy is damaging in the message that it sends, in particular, to our gay youth.  For that reason, I'll be more outspoken moving forward.

 

The one positive in all of this is that I tend to believe that this policy will ultimately go the way of the Church's efforts on Prop 8.  Instead of preventing legal recognition of gay marriage, Prop 8 helped pave the way for national gay marriage.  Similarly, this policy may have unintended consequences.

 

I second Mitch Mayne's hypothesis that maybe we, as a church, didn't learn the lessons we were supposed to from Prop 8.  So now, we'll learn them from this policy.  And maybe, just maybe, we'll get to where we are supposed to be -- even faster.

[Storm Rider]

My understanding is that the attorney helps by serving as an intermediary. By giving him power of attorney, the church will interact with the attorney rather than send a local leader to speak with the individual. Bishops and Stake Presidents are normally good about this issue - basically just checking with the individual to make sure the resignation is legit. But sometimes the local leader can be overbearing. I can see why a resigning member would find it beneficial to have the interaction come through her legal counsel than face-to-face (especially if its a free service).

 

As for who exactly is resigning, it shouldn't be surprising that most of the people are going through their "last straw" rather than their "first straw." But as Tyler Glenn of the Neon Trees reminds us (https://twitter.com/tylerinacoma?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Eauthor) the last straw is a valid as the first. And regardless of activity level, the act of resignation has real affects for the church, individual, and family. It shouldn't be treated lightly by either the individual or us members. Sentiments of "oh, it's just a bunch of inactives anyway" is not that helpful. Every child is precious.

 

IMO, the bigger worry is not the shift of those who actually resign, but the shift in those who remain. I view the resignations as the tip of the iceberg. For every member who resigned, there are many more who begin questioning things, stop participating fully, walk away from activity, or other take other actions that - while short of resigning - still build barriers between them and the community. Sometimes this is necessary (as it is with resigning) but it's still sad to have to experience. And it should concern us all because the cracks that begin today may develop into resignation in the years ahead.

 

Finally, if you really want to know the thinking of those who have left, you should just talk to them. 

 

At the end of the day it will only be about the individual and God.  No church, no doctrine, just a talk with Jesus about their life and the choices they made.  

 

Jesus is at the door knocking and it remains, and will always remain, the responsibility of the individual to open the door.  It will never be the bishop's job, or a neighbor's job, or your family's job, or anyone else.  We either open it or shut it all by ourselves.  

[Buckeye]

 

I posted a similar response before reading your post above.  

 

But I will add that I am definitely not okay with it.  Like a number of church members, even though I didn't like the slow pace, I could at least see that the Church was moving in the right direction post-2008.  This policy is damaging in the message that it sends, in particular, to our gay youth.  For that reason, I'll be more outspoken moving forward.

 

The one positive in all of this is that I tend to believe that this policy will ultimately go the way of the Church's efforts on Prop 8.  Instead of preventing legal recognition of gay marriage, Prop 8 helped pave the way for national gay marriage.  Similarly, this policy may have unintended consequences.

 

I second Mitch Mayne's hypothesis that maybe we, as a church, didn't learn the lessons we were supposed to from Prop 8.  So now, we'll learn them from this policy.  And maybe, just maybe, we'll get to where we are supposed to be -- even faster.

 

Yep. My biggest hope is that, going forward, we will continue to have many families such as Daniel2's involved in the church. Attitudes will change as people get to know these wonderful families. While the policy on its face is still damaging, most of its potential effect has now been muted in light of the clarification letter.

[filovirus]

 

 

 

I can't tell you have many times I've sat in ward council with a bishop who says "there is no such thing as a do not contact list." 

 

I my experience, so long as you're on the records, you're going to get contacted a few times a year on average. This is especially true now that we have so many missionaries will less people to teach. 

 

We make routine visits to the DNC (Do Not Contact) list. As ward mission leader we make contact about 2 times a years. I am very upfront with them that we will still be stopping by. Most times it's a quick 1-2 minute exchange at the door. Rarely I find hostility and most are polite. If they ask how to make us stop coming, I tell them how. I'm still yet to bring a letter back to the bishop. Been in my calling for about a year.

[Buckeye]

At the end of the day it will only be about the individual and God.  No church, no doctrine, just a talk with Jesus about their life and the choices they made.  

 

Jesus is at the door knocking and it remains, and will always remain, the responsibility of the individual to open the door.  It will never be the bishop's job, or a neighbor's job, or your family's job, or anyone else.  We either open it or shut it all by ourselves.  

 

Not really, no. Unlike many churches, LDS doctrine teaches familial salvation. Sealings are necessary. We can't be saved without our dead. All that. I do agree that no one can be cut off from God by others' actions. But our path back to Him is a collective one. Lehi's story is a good example.

[Deborah]

I second Mitch Mayne's hypothesis that maybe we, as a church, didn't learn the lessons we were supposed to from Prop 8.  So now, we'll learn them from this policy.  And maybe, just maybe, we'll get to where we are supposed to be -- even faster.

 

 And where is it we are supposed to be. Family is the central relationship here and eternity. The whole problem with the gay movement is they are creating families that can not exist in eternity. The whole idea of the gospel is to seal families together through the generations.

[SeekingUnderstanding]

 And where is it we are supposed to be. Family is the central relationship here and eternity. The whole problem with the gay movement is they are creating families that can not exist in eternity. The whole idea of the gospel is to seal families together through the generations.

This is an interesting concept to me. It seems that divorce creates way more families that can't exist in eternity than gay marriage ever will?

[Buckeye]

 And where is it we are supposed to be. Family is the central relationship here and eternity. The whole problem with the gay movement is they are creating families that can not exist in eternity. The whole idea of the gospel is to seal families together through the generations.

 

That really is the heart of the issue. What changed for me was knowing these families. A seed of hope was planted that the families would be eternal, despite everything that I'd been taught to the contrary. 

[Ares]

Offending posts have been deleted.  Don't troll and don't feed trolls.

 

Edited to add: There are several thread on same sex marriage and homosexuality.  This is not one of them.  Please stay on topic.  -Ares

[pelican]

The primary purpose of the Church is to lead us individually and together into exaltation.  We are taught to marry, be faithful, replenish the earth.  Gay marriage, divorce, remaining single - these are the things that go against the will of God.

[Deborah]

This is an interesting concept to me. It seems that divorce creates way more families that can't exist in eternity than gay marriage ever will?

 

Gay marriages can never exist in eternity. If divorced the wife can be given to another and the family will still exist. I'm not sure why this concept is so difficult to understand.

[Buckeye]

Gay marriages can never exist in eternity. If divorced the wife can be given to another and the family will still exist. I'm not sure why this concept is so difficult to understand.

 

It's not difficult to understand. It's just not believed. Kind of like the old notion that interracial marriage was contrary to eternal designs. Saying something over and over doesn't make it true. Seeing it does. And most people who see gay families end up hoping for their continuation rather than dissolution.

[provoman]

It was cumbersome in your stake/ward, but you shouldn't paint the rest of the Church with that brush. As outlined in the handbook (and in my experience), it's incredibly easy and non-invasive. The hard part is actually getting people who bellow that they want to resign to actually write some sort of a letter . . .

Buckeye pointed out a possibility I hadn't thought of (all contact going through the attorney, instead of the person), but I don't think that's what he was offering. CFR, anyone who knows? Was that part of the attorney's paperwork/offered services?

I think it's cowardly and "easy" (cheap grace, Five Solas? to try to avoid having the bishop confirm receipt of the letter. If you're so brave that you're very publicly taking this big step and resigning, go ahead and actually follow the resigning process. You want to stick it to the Church and show your bishop how fed up you are with "the last straw" ---- tell him.

Pre-priinted, fill-in-the blank resignations. Very courageous.

I wonder why anyone who left the Church at a mass resignation event, would come to a place where they will be called a coward, and be mocked by those who claim membership in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

Edited November 17, 2015 by provoman

[pelican]

I wonder why anyone who left the Church at a mass resignation event, would come to a place where they will be called a coward, and be mocked by those who claim membership in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

 

No one is being mocked here.

[why me]

I wonder why anyone who left the Church at a mass resignation event, would come to a place where they will be called a coward, and be mocked by those who claim membership in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

I don't think that this is true. The moderators on this thread deleted many posts that were deemed offensive. Sure they may get a hard time but that would be normal for any mormon board. I have been on this board for more than ten years and I have never seen the behavior that you said occurs.

I do think that those who resigned were on there way out anyway. Very few members would resign just over one issue or policy. But it may have given them a push.