Flyonthewall Posted October 20, 2015 Posted October 20, 2015 But Flyonthewall do you not know that James 2:18 scripture you just posted speaks of being Justified before men and not Justified before God ?. That is the standard evangelical reading/interpetation of that verse and surrounding verses. Get caught up to speed on this ASAP. In His Eternal Debt/Grace Anakin7Sorry... I missed the distinction as layed out in scripture.
filovirus Posted October 20, 2015 Posted October 20, 2015 But Flyonthewall do you not know that James 2:18 scripture you just posted speaks of being Justified before men and not Justified before God ?. That is the standard evangelical reading/interpetation of that verse and surrounding verses. Get caught up to speed on this ASAP.In His Eternal Debt/GraceAnakin7Please explain.
Flyonthewall Posted October 20, 2015 Posted October 20, 2015 Please explain.That was a reminder of how James is/has been explained in evangelical circles as to why his address on faith does not apply to salvation. Our manifestation of faith before men, is nothing before God. It was tongue in cheek to me, but sad really, as the words of Jesus refute that position completely.
Anakin7 Posted October 20, 2015 Posted October 20, 2015 Devils advocate - It is plain from the text that Paul is discussing nothing about justification before God it was only justification before men period. Our works are as dung and filthy rags before a Holy God. Jesus commandments were only given to keep us in check here on earth but with no bearing on our spiritual condition before him in the afterlife. All we need is a predestined mental acceptance of Jesus and say the prayer and go on as we have and go to church some where the Bible is preached in truth. In His Eternal Debt/Grace Anakin7
coolrok7 Posted October 20, 2015 Posted October 20, 2015 Anakin7, you seem to think you know what I believe when you actually don't based on what you post about me. Please explain predestination that Paul talks about in Ephesians
DJBrown Posted October 20, 2015 Posted October 20, 2015 Even the Sons of Perdition whom are born into mortality will get a type of salvation. They will get their bodies back. They will be "exalted" over those that weren't. I believe you are wrong. I think sons of perdition will not be resurrected. Consider D&C 76: "Thus saith the Lord concerning all those who know mypower, and have been made partakers thereof, andsuffered themselves through the power of the devil to beovercome, and to deny the truth and defy my power— 32 They are they who are the sons of perdition, of whom Isay that it had been better for them never to have beenborn; 33 For they are vessels of wrath, doomed to suffer thewrath of God, with the devil and his angels in eternity; 34 Concerning whom I have said there is no forgivenessin this world nor in the world to come— 35 Having denied the Holy Spirit after having received it,and having denied the Only Begotten Son of the Father,having crucified him unto themselves and put him to anopen shame. 36 These are they who shall go away into the lake of fireand brimstone, with the devil and his angels— 37 And the only ones on whom the second death shall have any power; 38 Yea, verily, the only ones who shall not be redeemed inthe due time of the Lord, after the sufferings of his wrath. 39 For all the rest shall be brought forth by the resurrection of the dead, through the triumph and the glory of the Lamb, who was slain, who was in the bosom of the Father before the worlds were made." D&C 76:31-39The Lord states that "the rest shall be brought forth by the resurrection." So sons of perdition will not be resurrected according to this revelation.
thesometimesaint Posted October 20, 2015 Posted October 20, 2015 (edited) The Sons of Perdition that were born into mortality will get their bodies back. Those that weren't won't.SEE http://en.fairmormon.org/Plan_of_salvation/Sons_of_Perdition/Will_sons_of_perdition_be_resurrected Edited for spelling. Edited October 20, 2015 by thesometimesaint
VideoGameJunkie Posted October 20, 2015 Posted October 20, 2015 Who that were born into mortality will be the Sons of Perdition? Cain? Judas? Hitler? Stalin? Korihor? Osama Bin Laden? I've heard some Mormons have done temple work for Hitler, but that could just be a rumor. I'm interested who actually will go to Outer Darkness and not just Spirit Prison and the Telestial Kingdom with the liars, adulterers, murderers, and whoremongers. I understand whoremongers are people known as players like Charlie Sheen.
filovirus Posted October 20, 2015 Posted October 20, 2015 The only person I've heard with certainty is Cain.
Bob Crockett Posted October 20, 2015 Posted October 20, 2015 If I know one thing, it is that a woman can obtain her salvation in childbearing. Doesn't say much for those who are childless, or men, or children.
Bobbieaware Posted October 20, 2015 Posted October 20, 2015 (edited) Who that were born into mortality will be the Sons of Perdition? Cain? Judas? Hitler? Stalin? Korihor? Osama Bin Laden? I've heard some Mormons have done temple work for Hitler, but that could just be a rumor. I'm interested who actually will go to Outer Darkness and not just Spirit Prison and the Telestial Kingdom with the liars, adulterers, murderers, and whoremongers. I understand whoremongers are people known as players like Charlie Sheen.If you will read the 76th and 132nd sections of the Doctrine and Covenants more carefully, you will observe only former adulterers, former murderers and former whoremongers will inherit the telestial kingdom. But before they can inherit the telestial glory they will be thrust down to hell until they have been humbled sufficiently to sincerely repent and thereby receive forgiveness through the atonement of Christ. Thereafter, because they will have sincerely repented, the inheritors of the telestial kingdom will receive the presence of the Holy Spirit, for the Spirit of the Lord cannot dwell in unclean (unforgiven) tabernacles. Edited October 20, 2015 by Bobbieaware
Bobbieaware Posted October 20, 2015 Posted October 20, 2015 I believe you are wrong. I think sons of perdition will not be resurrected. Consider D&C 76: "Thus saith the Lord concerning all those who know mypower, and have been made partakers thereof, andsuffered themselves through the power of the devil to beovercome, and to deny the truth and defy my power— 32 They are they who are the sons of perdition, of whom Isay that it had been better for them never to have beenborn; 33 For they are vessels of wrath, doomed to suffer thewrath of God, with the devil and his angels in eternity; 34 Concerning whom I have said there is no forgivenessin this world nor in the world to come— 35 Having denied the Holy Spirit after having received it,and having denied the Only Begotten Son of the Father,having crucified him unto themselves and put him to anopen shame. 36 These are they who shall go away into the lake of fireand brimstone, with the devil and his angels— 37 And the only ones on whom the second death shall have any power; 38 Yea, verily, the only ones who shall not be redeemed inthe due time of the Lord, after the sufferings of his wrath. 39 For all the rest shall be brought forth by the resurrection of the dead, through the triumph and the glory of the Lamb, who was slain, who was in the bosom of the Father before the worlds were made." D&C 76:31-39The Lord states that "the rest shall be brought forth by the resurrection." So sons of perdition will not be resurrected according to this revelation.All will be resurrected -- including the sons of perdition -- but the sons of perdition will only have part the resurrection of the unjust. All the rest will be redeemed (forgiven and resurrected unto life) in the due time of the Lord
jkwilliams Posted October 20, 2015 Posted October 20, 2015 If you will read the 76th and 132nd sections of the Doctrine and Covenants more carefully, you will observe only former adulterers, former murderers and former whoremongers will inherit the telestial kingdom. But before they can inherit the telestial glory they will be thrust down to hell until they have been humbled sufficiently to sincerely repent and thereby receive forgiveness through the atonement of Christ. Thereafter, because they will have sincerely repented, the inheritors of the telestial kingdom will receive the presence of the Holy Spirit, for the Spirit of the Lord cannot dwell in unclean (unforgiven) tabernacles. Maybe I'm terrestrial material, after all.
JLHPROF Posted October 20, 2015 Posted October 20, 2015 If you will read the 76th and 132nd sections of the Doctrine and Covenants more carefully, you will observe only former adulterers, former murderers and former whoremongers will inherit the telestial kingdom. But before they can inherit the telestial glory they will be thrust down to hell until they have been humbled sufficiently to sincerely repent and thereby receive forgiveness through the atonement of Christ. Thereafter, because they will have sincerely repented, the inheritors of the telestial kingdom will receive the presence of the Holy Spirit, for the Spirit of the Lord cannot dwell in unclean (unforgiven) tabernacles. I always wonder when I read the following verses: Telestial82 These are they who received not the gospel of Christ, neither the testimony of Jesus. Terrestrial74 Who received not the testimony of Jesus in the flesh, but afterwards received it. So do Telestial beings EVER receive the testimony of Christ (and if not how would they be resurrected)?And if someone is baptized (accepts Christ) in this life, doesn't that overqualify them for the Terrestrial which seems to limit to those who receive Christ after this life?
Tony Frank Posted October 20, 2015 Posted October 20, 2015 The Sons of Perdition that were born into mortality will get their bodies back. Those that weren't won't.SEE http://en.fairmormon.org/Plan_of_salvation/Sons_of_Perdition/Will_sons_of_perdition_be_resurrected Edited for spelling. The Prophet Joseph Smith wrote: "Say to the brothers Hulet and to all others, that the Lord never authorized them to say that the devil, his angels, or the sons of perdition should ever be restored; for their state of destiny was not revealed to man, is not revealed, nor ever shall be revealed, save to those who are made partakers thereof: consequently those who teach this doctrine have not received it of the Spirit of the Lord. Truly Brother Oliver declared it to be the doctrine of devils. We, therefore, command that this doctrine be taught no more in Zion." (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p.24) Brigham Young stated: "Jesus will redeem the last and least of the sons of Adam, except the sons of perdition, who will be held in reserve for another time. They will become angels of the Devil." (Discourses of Brigham Young, p.29) Doctrine and Covenants tells us, "These are they who shall go away into the lake of fire and brimstone, with the devil and his angels— "And the only ones on whom the second death shall have any power; "Yea, verily, the only ones who shall not be redeemed in the due time of the Lord after the sufferings of his wrath. "For all the rest shall be brought forth by the resurrection of the dead through the triumph and the glory of the Lamb."
Tony Frank Posted October 20, 2015 Posted October 20, 2015 Who that were born into mortality will be the Sons of Perdition? Cain? Judas? Hitler? Stalin? Korihor? Osama Bin Laden? I've heard some Mormons have done temple work for Hitler, but that could just be a rumor. I'm interested who actually will go to Outer Darkness and not just Spirit Prison and the Telestial Kingdom with the liars, adulterers, murderers, and whoremongers. I understand whoremongers are people known as players like Charlie Sheen. "All sins shall be forgiven except the sin against the Holy Ghost; for Jesus will save all except the sons of perdition. What must a man do to commit the unpardonable sin? He must receive the Holy Ghost, have the heavens opened unto him, and know God, and then sin against him. After a man has sinned against the Holy Ghost, there is no repentance for him. He has got to say that the sun does not shine while he sees it; he has got to deny Jesus Christ when the heavens have been opened unto him, and to deny the plan of salvation with his eyes open to the truth of it." (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 358)
Bobbieaware Posted October 20, 2015 Posted October 20, 2015 I always wonder when I read the following verses: Telestial82 These are they who received not the gospel of Christ, neither the testimony of Jesus. Terrestrial74 Who received not the testimony of Jesus in the flesh, but afterwards received it. So do Telestial beings EVER receive the testimony of Christ (and if not how would they be resurrected)?And if someone is baptized (accepts Christ) in this life, doesn't that overqualify them for the Terrestrial which seems to limit to those who receive Christ after this life?Here is your answer from Joseph Fielding Smith's "Doctrines of Salvation:" (Note the portions I placed in caps)"Those who enter into the telestial kingdom, where their glories differ as do the stars of heaven in their magnitude, and who are innumerable as the sands of the seashore, are the ungodly, the filthy who suffer the wrath of God on the earth, who are thrust down to hell where they will be required to pay the uttermost farthing before their redemption comes. These are they who receive not the gospel of Christ and consequently could not deny the Holy Spirit WHILE LIVING ON THE EARTH.They have no part in the first resurrection and are not redeemed from the devil and his angels until the last resurrection, because of their wicked lives and their evil deeds. Nevertheless, even these are heirs of salvation, but before they are redeemed and enter into their kingdom, THEY MUST FIRST REPENT OF THEIR SINS, and RECEIVE THE GOSPEL, AND BOW THE KNEE, AND ACKNOWLEDGE THAT JESUS IS THE CHRIST, the Redeemer of the world.
Tony Frank Posted October 20, 2015 Posted October 20, 2015 I always wonder when I read the following verses: Telestial82 These are they who received not the gospel of Christ, neither the testimony of Jesus. Terrestrial74 Who received not the testimony of Jesus in the flesh, but afterwards received it. So do Telestial beings EVER receive the testimony of Christ (and if not how would they be resurrected)?And if someone is baptized (accepts Christ) in this life, doesn't that overqualify them for the Terrestrial which seems to limit to those who receive Christ after this life? Besides those mentioned in verse 74, people who end up in the terrestrial kingdom were not "valiant" in the testimony of Jesus. "These are they who are not valiant in the testimony of Jesus; wherefore, they obtain not the crown over the kingdom of our God." - Doctrine and Covenants 76:79
JLHPROF Posted October 20, 2015 Posted October 20, 2015 Besides those mentioned in verse 74, people who end up in the terrestrial kingdom were not "valiant" in the testimony of Jesus. "These are they who are not valiant in the testimony of Jesus; wherefore, they obtain not the crown over the kingdom of our God." - Doctrine and Covenants 76:79 Yes, I see that.So are we talking two separate groups? Those who had a testimony and weren't valiant, and those who refused to accept Christ until the next life.Or maybe are we defining "testimony" of Christ incorrectly? I understand the scripture. I just find verse 74 interesting.
thesometimesaint Posted October 21, 2015 Posted October 21, 2015 The Sons of Perdition are those that have a testimony(read Sure Knowledge) of Christ, but utterly turn away from it and refuse to repent in this life and the next. They though an act of their own will(read Agency), will not repent. As JS said it is as if saying the sun is not shinning when standing out in the midday sun.
Anakin7 Posted October 24, 2015 Posted October 24, 2015 (edited) Sorry coolrok I have been busy with Family/Personal/Church responsibilities. Perhaps I should understand your Lutheran belief in Predestiantion. Is every act/movement/event throughtout all Time space in all dimensions predetermined with no way of change ?.Is your next response to me predestined from eons ago along with my or any other person set in stone from eternity past ?. Did the Awesome Apostle Paul believe this before Martin Luther and John Calvin came out with there predestination dogmatic view ?. I am really busy but will try to look in here when I can Thank you. May You Accept/Access/Activate True Grace by way of True Faith.coolrok I found this - is this your position and view ?. http://www.trinity-ottumwa.com/qa10.htmlIn His Eternal Debt/GraceAnakin7 Edited October 24, 2015 by Anakin7
coolrok7 Posted October 24, 2015 Posted October 24, 2015 I understand you are busy but answer please when you can. Thanks
Teancum Posted October 24, 2015 Posted October 24, 2015 If I know one thing, it is that a woman can obtain her salvation in childbearing. Doesn't say much for those who are childless, or men, or children.So having babies saves her even if she is a vile un-repentant sinner?
Teancum Posted October 24, 2015 Posted October 24, 2015 Maybe I'm terrestrial material, after all. Better than outer darkness or the bottom level! I will join you there.... our parties will be great!
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