Tony Frank Posted October 17, 2015 Posted October 17, 2015 And I should add that Doctrine and Covenants tells us that those of the telestial kingdom shall be "heirs of salvation." "And also the telestial receive it of the administering of angels who are appointed to minister for them, or who are appointed to be ministering spirits for them; for they shall be heirs of salvation." (D&C 76:88)
Gilbert Posted October 17, 2015 Posted October 17, 2015 The meaning of salvation depends entirely upon its context. At times it is used as a synonym for exaltation, sometimes it only means receiving a degree of glory.
VideoGameJunkie Posted October 18, 2015 Posted October 18, 2015 I want to know if you think there are really 3 degrees within the Celestial Kingdom or is D&C 76 mistranslated. Here's an article with an assumption: In the celestial glory there are three heavens or degrees; And in order to obtain the highest, a man must enter into this order of the priesthood [meaning the new and everlasting covenant of marriage]; And if he does not, he cannot obtain it. He may enter into the other, but that is the end of his kingdom; he cannot have an increase. These words represent comments on the priesthood from Joseph to Benjamin F. Johnson and his wife on 16 May 1843 at the home of William G. Perkins in Ramus, Illinois, as recorded by William Clayton in his journal, which is the source for them. This material was first published in the Deseret News on 24 September 1856, and was included in the 1876 edition of the D&C (which is when the bracketed editorial insertion was also made). The traditional understanding of this passage is that the Celestial Kingdom is divided into three subdegrees of glory. A number of years ago, I learned of another possible reading of this passage from a friend who had heard it from a temple president in California. The basic insight of this alternate reading is this: What if the expression “celestial glory” were not intended as a technical term for the Celestial Kingdom, but in a generic sense, something like “yonder heavens”? In that event, the “three heavens or degrees” would not be subdegrees within the CK, but rather simply the same three degrees of glory spoken of in the Vision of D&C 76. I immediately found this alternate reading appealing, for a number of reasons: First is the spare attestation of this teaching from the first generation of Mormonism. All we have for it is this one notation in the Clayton journal. As far as we can tell, neither Joseph nor anyone else ever spoke of it again. Second, while the adjective “celestial” to modern Mormons immediately brings to mind the CK, it may have still had a broader and sometimes generic usage in the early days of the Church. And note it is “celestial glory,” not the usual term of art, “celestial kingdom.” Third, “heavens or degrees” does sound like the usual technical terminology for the three kingdoms we are familiar with. Fourth, isn’t it a huge coincidence that there just happens to be three heavens or degrees within the CK, just as there are three heavens or degrees generally? Fifth, neither D&C 76 nor the poetic paraphrase intimates anything about formal subdivisions. This of course is not definitive, as Joseph’s theology was progressing rapidly during this period. Sixth, it seems very odd to me to speak of degrees without delineating what those degrees signify. D&C 76 goes on at length expressing the distinctions among the degrees, but this passage makes only one distinction: between marriage and nonmarriage. So we are left with a situation where we don’t even know what the second degree is supposed to entail (assuming the first degree is for otherwise eligible singles). (I am reminded of the Grondahl cartoon where a couple is eating in a fine restaurant in the CK, and they are waited on by Chad, their ministering angel for the evening, or something like that.) None of this is definitive, of course, An argument certainly can be made for the traditional reading, and I’m sure some respondents will make it. But I’m curious what you think. Is the CK formally subdivided into three subdegrees?
VideoGameJunkie Posted October 18, 2015 Posted October 18, 2015 It seems odd that the CK would be divided into 3 subdegrees when there's already 3 degrees of glory and the CK is hard enough to get into as it is, now we have to worry about which level of the CK we can attain too? Apostles never talk about the 3 subdegrees, they just say Celestial Kingdom which will be our earth when it becomes celestialized. It's hard enough worrying about 3 degrees of glory to go to, but now we have to worry about 5?
Stargazer Posted October 18, 2015 Posted October 18, 2015 It seems odd that the CK would be divided into 3 subdegrees when there's already 3 degrees of glory and the CK is hard enough to get into as it is, now we have to worry about which level of the CK we can attain too? Apostles never talk about the 3 subdegrees, they just say Celestial Kingdom which will be our earth when it becomes celestialized. It's hard enough worrying about 3 degrees of glory to go to, but now we have to worry about 5? Why be worried? This is the gospel of peace, there's no need to worry. In the end, all will be well. But what you have written in the previous post does have a certain "ring" to it, doesn't it? Makes positively good sense, I believe. But I shan't worry about it.
VideoGameJunkie Posted October 18, 2015 Posted October 18, 2015 Well I worry because there's so many different options for a destination and we should only want one path, but the more options that there are, the more chances I won't go where I want. It's a percentages thing.
Bobbieaware Posted October 18, 2015 Posted October 18, 2015 Well I worry because there's so many different options for a destination and we should only want one path, but the more options that there are, the more chances I won't go where I want. It's a percentages thing.It"s a faith thing, The only thing that prevents anyone from attaining the fullness of eternal reward is lack of faith in Christ. It"s got nothing to do with chance and everything to do with reaping what we sow. 1
VideoGameJunkie Posted October 18, 2015 Posted October 18, 2015 And how many mistakes we've made in our life. I've made a lot. I don't even know if I'd be worthy of the CK.
JLHPROF Posted October 18, 2015 Posted October 18, 2015 It seems odd that the CK would be divided into 3 subdegrees when there's already 3 degrees of glory and the CK is hard enough to get into as it is, now we have to worry about which level of the CK we can attain too? Apostles never talk about the 3 subdegrees, they just say Celestial Kingdom which will be our earth when it becomes celestialized. It's hard enough worrying about 3 degrees of glory to go to, but now we have to worry about 5?It's not that complicated. Bottom degree are servants and single. Top degree are exalted and will receive eternal increase. All due to the amount of light they were willing to accept and the laws they were willing to live . Nobody loses out on something they are willing to live for. We only "fall short" if we reject light.Salvation = saved not lost (perdition, Perdus, lost)Fullness of Salvation = saved with God (celestial)Exaltation = exalted (lifted up, made high), a ruler, King and priest, Godhood.
Gilbert Posted October 18, 2015 Posted October 18, 2015 D&C 132:16 Therefore, when they are out of the world they neither marry nor are given in marriage; but are appointed angels in heaven, which angels are ministering servants, to minister for those who are worthy of a far more, and an exceeding, and an eternal weight of glory.17 For these angels did not abide my law; therefore, they cannot be enlarged, but remain separately and singly, without exaltation, in their saved condition, to all eternity; and from henceforth are not gods, but are angels of God forever and ever. These verses seem to indicate that there will be non-exalted beings who dwell among among exalted beings. Either way I don't think the alternate interpretation makes any significant difference in how we view the heavens. We know that those who fail to receive and honor all the ordinances of exaltation will not be exalted. I think the Lord has made his point sufficiently clear.
Zakuska Posted October 18, 2015 Posted October 18, 2015 Eternal life is not earned/merited/worked for.Huh? Apparently Paul missed that memo.Philipians 212 Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed—not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence—continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling,Why are they to 'work for' something they already had/have?
JLHPROF Posted October 18, 2015 Posted October 18, 2015 Ya, but who are the middle degree? That has been the unanswered question since the doctrine was revealed.We simply don't know, although there have been some interesting guesses.
Stargazer Posted October 18, 2015 Posted October 18, 2015 And how many mistakes we've made in our life. I've made a lot. I don't even know if I'd be worthy of the CK. You really need to get a testimony of the Atonement of Jesus Christ. It doesn't matter how many mistakes we've made in our lives (and for the record, we should be talking SINS here, and not mere mistakes). If we repent of our sins, Christ's Atonement covers us 100%, as if they never happened. That's what some evangelical Christians get cross-eyed over Mormons, you know. Too many of us think we have to haul that particular load of trash ourselves, when the fact is that the trash has already been hauled out by the One who paid for them. Forgiveness of sins is a free gift from Him who suffered so that we wouldn't have to. All we have to give Him in return is a broken heart and a contrite spirit -- which means faith and repentance. That's forgiveness of sins. To be worthy of the Celestial Kingdom you simply keep the covenants you made in the temple. I know that might sound hard, but if you are sincere you will not find it so. Stop worrying so much. Let go, and let God -- He will guide you in all you need to do. 1
theplains Posted October 18, 2015 Posted October 18, 2015 I was having a discussion and the topic of salvation came up, some said that there is a difference between salvation and exaltation.Salvation is the free gift of eternal lifeExaltation is what we get when faithful.I have always thought they were one and the same. According to an Ensign article, there are six definitions for salvation. Regards,Jim
filovirus Posted October 18, 2015 Posted October 18, 2015 (edited) According to an Ensign article, there are six definitions for salvation.Regards,JimThat was actually a General Conference talk from the month previous. I was just about to recommend people read it. It was given right before a large group of baptists went to Utah to convert the Mormons. At least, that's what I remember. Edited October 18, 2015 by filovirus
Zakuska Posted October 18, 2015 Posted October 18, 2015 Read Galatians 3I did. Obedience of faith is the first principle of the Gospel. Mormons know that....We believe that the first principles and ordinances of the Gospel are: first, Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ; second, Repentance; third, Baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; fourth, Laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost.Paul again makes reference to the milk of the gospel here...heb 6 1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, 2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. 3 And this will we do, if God permit.
Anakin7 Posted October 19, 2015 Posted October 19, 2015 (edited) Zakuska [and all others] remember our LDS accusser critic coolrok 7 resides in the Lutheran [Missouri synod] room of christianity of the protestant [protesting] house/room. Every word typed is predestined from eternity past [on both sides] according to them/him. However they/ he do not believe in "Once Saved Always Saved as a Biblical doctrine. He accusses us of a personal self rightious only journey/quest for True Salvation of which he paints/produces a false presentation/picture of our True Salvation/Soteriological journey and quest to enter The Kingdom of God and of The Heavenly Jerusalem where God the Father The Monarch of The Universe/God The Son The Vice Monarch of The Universe/God The Holy Ghost/Spirit The Awesome Testator/Sanctifier of The Universe/ Archangels/Angels/Rightiosness/Truth and of The True O.T Prophets/Hebrews/Israelites N.T Prophets/Apostles Saints/Christians. He paints/portrays us in a Pharisee self rightious works form/model wheras our True Salvation Soteriological form/model is a Saint/Christian/Biblical Love/Faith/Covenant of Obedience form/model.He has been shown adinfinentum times why our Salvation/Soteriological Quest/Journey is Christian and Biblical but he rejects/ignors our evidence we use to support us. We do not believe in a employer/employee type salvation form/model but of a Patron/Client form/model of True Salvation. He has also been shown The True Grace of Christ in a past post that linked to John Gee's Paper on the Grace of Christ that shows our Form/Model of Grace is The Christian/Biblical one but he ignored it and went on to protest. He also ignors The The Anchient meaning of True Faith [pistis] within the The walls of The Heavenly Jerusalem where God The Father the Monarch of The Universe/God The Son Jesus Christ The Vice Monarch of The Universe/God The Holy Ghost Spirit/Archangels/Angels/Rightiousness/True and of The True O.T Prophet/Hebrews/Israelites N.T Prophets/Apostles/Saints/Christians. True Faith = pistis - Allegience/Commitment/Confidence/Dedication/Devotion/Faithfulness/Fidelity/Loyalty/Obedience/Trust to the person and work of Christ Jesus. May he find as well as we all True Grace by way of True Faith. In His Eternal Debt/Grace Anakin7 Edited October 19, 2015 by Anakin7
hagoth7 Posted October 19, 2015 Posted October 19, 2015 (edited) I was having a discussion and the topic of salvation came up, some said that there is a difference between salvation and exaltation.Salvation is the free gift of eternal lifeExaltation is what we get when faithful.I have always thought they were one and the same...For what it may be worth, I attended a session of Education Week at BYU a few months back on the topic of salvation where it was said by the instructor that many passages in scripture that refer to salvation are also referring to exaltation. Edited October 19, 2015 by hagoth7
Anakin7 Posted October 19, 2015 Posted October 19, 2015 The Evangelical Orthodox In Me ! - http://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/believing.htm http://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/workssalvation.htm http://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/goodworks.htm In His Eternal Debt/Grace Anakin7
Flyonthewall Posted October 19, 2015 Posted October 19, 2015 Zak, work out not work for.And what would be the difference...? Galatians 3 speaks of the Law of Moses and how it is not what brings salvation - we already know that. Did the Sheep merit their inheritance? What was the difference between the sheep and the goats? What was it that Jesus said the goats lacked? ... Oh that is right - actions...deeds...works. 18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
Anakin7 Posted October 20, 2015 Posted October 20, 2015 But Flyonthewall do you not know that James 2:18 scripture you just posted speaks of being Justified before men and not Justified before God ?. That is the standard evangelical reading/interpetation of that verse and surrounding verses. Get caught up to speed on this ASAP. In His Eternal Debt/Grace Anakin7
Recommended Posts