Teancum Posted October 24, 2015 Posted October 24, 2015 I always wonder when I read the following verses: Telestial82 These are they who received not the gospel of Christ, neither the testimony of Jesus. Terrestrial74 Who received not the testimony of Jesus in the flesh, but afterwards received it. So do Telestial beings EVER receive the testimony of Christ (and if not how would they be resurrected)?And if someone is baptized (accepts Christ) in this life, doesn't that overqualify them for the Terrestrial which seems to limit to those who receive Christ after this life? Wow God sure did create a complex plan for what we get in the next life....Seems even those with God's restored church are not to sure about it all.
Teancum Posted October 24, 2015 Posted October 24, 2015 "All sins shall be forgiven except the sin against the Holy Ghost; for Jesus will save all except the sons of perdition. What must a man do to commit the unpardonable sin? He must receive the Holy Ghost, have the heavens opened unto him, and know God, and then sin against him. After a man has sinned against the Holy Ghost, there is no repentance for him. He has got to say that the sun does not shine while he sees it; he has got to deny Jesus Christ when the heavens have been opened unto him, and to deny the plan of salvation with his eyes open to the truth of it." (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 358) GREAT! Even though I am a vile apostate it seems at least I am not destined for outer darkness since I have not "receive(d) the Holy Ghost, (and had( the heavens opened unto (me), and know God, and then sin against him. After a man has sinned against the Holy Ghost, there is no repentance for him. He has got to say that the sun does not shine while he sees it; he has got to deny Jesus Christ when the heavens have been opened unto him, and to deny the plan of salvation with his eyes open to the truth of it.. At least I will have a telestial or terrestrial reward. If the telestial is like this earth I will take it. I quite like it here.
Teancum Posted October 24, 2015 Posted October 24, 2015 Here is your answer from Joseph Fielding Smith's "Doctrines of Salvation:" (Note the portions I placed in caps)"Those who enter into the telestial kingdom, where their glories differ as do the stars of heaven in their magnitude, and who are innumerable as the sands of the seashore, are the ungodly, the filthy who suffer the wrath of God on the earth, who are thrust down to hell where they will be required to pay the uttermost farthing before their redemption comes. These are they who receive not the gospel of Christ and consequently could not deny the Holy Spirit WHILE LIVING ON THE EARTH.They have no part in the first resurrection and are not redeemed from the devil and his angels until the last resurrection, because of their wicked lives and their evil deeds. Nevertheless, even these are heirs of salvation, but before they are redeemed and enter into their kingdom, THEY MUST FIRST REPENT OF THEIR SINS, and RECEIVE THE GOSPEL, AND BOW THE KNEE, AND ACKNOWLEDGE THAT JESUS IS THE CHRIST, the Redeemer of the world. I think the member of the LDS Church who in their arrogance and self righteous approach to "We have the ONE and ONLY TRUE Church are in for a big surprise. But if not look down upon me someday in the eternities when I sit in some lesser glory and have mercy upon me,...
Anakin7 Posted October 25, 2015 Posted October 25, 2015 Few brief moments in time I have - coolrok I did ask you some questions in my post # 72 along with a link to try and understand your position. I did do a little reseach and came up with that lutheran and Calvin predestination have differences with each other. I prefer the word "Forordained" rather than predestined. In His Eternal Debt/Grace Anakin7
VideoGameJunkie Posted October 25, 2015 Posted October 25, 2015 The more I think about my life and the eternities, the more I think I'll be joining Teancum in the Terrestrial world instead of the Celestial. But I have hope I won't go to Telestial or Outder Darkness. It would be easier and more simple if there was only one heaven.
coolrok7 Posted October 25, 2015 Posted October 25, 2015 (edited) Anakin7, in your post #46 you state in part: Zakuska [and all others] remember our LDS accusser critic coolrok 7 resides in the Lutheran [Missouri synod] room of christianity of the protestant [protesting] house/room. Every word typed is predestined from eternity past [on both sides] according to them/him. However they/ he do not believe in "Once Saved Always Saved as a Biblical doctrine. He accusses us. . . You made the comment which I've never really elaborated on. So I asked you earlier what does predestined (or foreordained) mean in Ephesians? Edited October 25, 2015 by coolrok7
Tony Frank Posted October 26, 2015 Posted October 26, 2015 GREAT! Even though I am a vile apostate it seems at least I am not destined for outer darkness since I have not "receive(d) the Holy Ghost, (and had( the heavens opened unto (me), and know God, and then sin against him. After a man has sinned against the Holy Ghost, there is no repentance for him. He has got to say that the sun does not shine while he sees it; he has got to deny Jesus Christ when the heavens have been opened unto him, and to deny the plan of salvation with his eyes open to the truth of it.. At least I will have a telestial or terrestrial reward. If the telestial is like this earth I will take it. I quite like it here. Anyone not worthy of eternal life when they die will experience the pains of hell, the most excruciating of all pain. They will be in hell with Satan and his angels for well over a thousand years until they are resurrected at the end of the millennium. As Alma said to his son, “There shall be weeping, and wailing, and gnashing of teeth, and this because of their own iniquity, being led captive by the will of the devil. Now this is the state of the souls of the wicked, yea, in darkness and a state of awful, fearful looking for the fiery indignation of the wrath of God upon them; thus they remain in this state, as well as the righteous in paradise, until the time of their resurrection.” Jacob told the Nephites, “Wo unto him that has the law given, yea, that has all the commandments of God like unto us, and that transgresseth them, and that wasteth the days of his probation, for awful is his state! “O that cunning plan of the evil one! O the vainness, and the frailties, and the foolishness of men! When they are learned they think they are wise, and they hearken not unto the counsel of God, for they set it aside, supposing they know of themselves, wherefore, their wisdom is foolishness and it profiteth them not. And they shall perish. “Therefore remember, O man, for all thy doings thou shalt be brought into judgment.” King Benjamin told the Nephites, “Therefore if that man repenteth not and remaineth and dieth an enemy to God, the demands of divine justice do awaken his immortal soul to a lively sense of his own guilt, which doth cause him to shrink from the presence of the Lord and doth fill his breast with guilt, and pain, and anguish.” Abinadi spoke of those who receive “the resurrection of endless damnation, being delivered up to the devil, who hath subjected them, which is damnation— Having gone according to their own carnal wills and desires; having never called upon the Lord while the arms of mercy were extended towards them; for the arms of mercy were extended towards them, and they would not; they being warned of their iniquities and yet they would not depart from them; and they were commanded to repent and yet they would not repent.” As Lehi said to his sons, “Look to the great Mediator and hearken unto his great commandments; and be faithful unto his words and choose eternal life, according to the will of his Holy Spirit; And not choose eternal death, according to the will of the flesh and the evil which is therein, which giveth the spirit of the devil power to captivate to bring you down to hell that he may reign over you in his own kingdom.” Alma characterized what will happen at the last day to those who are not worthy of eternal life, which includes those who will not give heed to Jesus Christ’s prophets in these latter days, “In this awful state we shall not dare to look up to our God; and we would fain be glad if we could command the rocks and the mountains to fall upon us to hide us from his presence.” If you will not pay your tithing; if you will not live the gospel and live temple worthy; if you will not live according to that which Jesus Christ has revealed through His Latter-day prophets, then I would ask what Mormon asked, “Do ye suppose that ye shall dwell with him under a consciousness of your guilt? Do ye suppose that ye could be happy to dwell with that holy Being when your souls are racked with a consciousness of guilt that ye have ever abused his laws? “Behold, I say unto you that ye would be more miserable to dwell with a holy and just God under a consciousness of your filthiness before him, than ye would to dwell with the damned souls in hell. “For behold, when ye shall be brought to see your nakedness before God, and also the glory of God and the holiness of Jesus Christ, it will kindle a flame of unquenchable fire upon you.”
Teancum Posted October 26, 2015 Posted October 26, 2015 Anyone not worthy of eternal life when they die will experience the pains of hell, the most excruciating of all pain. They will be in hell with Satan and his angels for well over a thousand years until they are resurrected at the end of the millennium. As Alma said to his son, “There shall be weeping, and wailing, and gnashing of teeth, and this because of their own iniquity, being led captive by the will of the devil. Now this is the state of the souls of the wicked, yea, in darkness and a state of awful, fearful looking for the fiery indignation of the wrath of God upon them; thus they remain in this state, as well as the righteous in paradise, until the time of their resurrection.” Jacob told the Nephites, “Wo unto him that has the law given, yea, that has all the commandments of God like unto us, and that transgresseth them, and that wasteth the days of his probation, for awful is his state! “O that cunning plan of the evil one! O the vainness, and the frailties, and the foolishness of men! When they are learned they think they are wise, and they hearken not unto the counsel of God, for they set it aside, supposing they know of themselves, wherefore, their wisdom is foolishness and it profiteth them not. And they shall perish. “Therefore remember, O man, for all thy doings thou shalt be brought into judgment.” King Benjamin told the Nephites, “Therefore if that man repenteth not and remaineth and dieth an enemy to God, the demands of divine justice do awaken his immortal soul to a lively sense of his own guilt, which doth cause him to shrink from the presence of the Lord and doth fill his breast with guilt, and pain, and anguish.” Abinadi spoke of those who receive “the resurrection of endless damnation, being delivered up to the devil, who hath subjected them, which is damnation— Having gone according to their own carnal wills and desires; having never called upon the Lord while the arms of mercy were extended towards them; for the arms of mercy were extended towards them, and they would not; they being warned of their iniquities and yet they would not depart from them; and they were commanded to repent and yet they would not repent.” As Lehi said to his sons, “Look to the great Mediator and hearken unto his great commandments; and be faithful unto his words and choose eternal life, according to the will of his Holy Spirit; And not choose eternal death, according to the will of the flesh and the evil which is therein, which giveth the spirit of the devil power to captivate to bring you down to hell that he may reign over you in his own kingdom.” Alma characterized what will happen at the last day to those who are not worthy of eternal life, which includes those who will not give heed to Jesus Christ’s prophets in these latter days, “In this awful state we shall not dare to look up to our God; and we would fain be glad if we could command the rocks and the mountains to fall upon us to hide us from his presence.” If you will not pay your tithing; if you will not live the gospel and live temple worthy; if you will not live according to that which Jesus Christ has revealed through His Latter-day prophets, then I would ask what Mormon asked, “Do ye suppose that ye shall dwell with him under a consciousness of your guilt? Do ye suppose that ye could be happy to dwell with that holy Being when your souls are racked with a consciousness of guilt that ye have ever abused his laws? “Behold, I say unto you that ye would be more miserable to dwell with a holy and just God under a consciousness of your filthiness before him, than ye would to dwell with the damned souls in hell. “For behold, when ye shall be brought to see your nakedness before God, and also the glory of God and the holiness of Jesus Christ, it will kindle a flame of unquenchable fire upon you.” I think you need to read D&C 76 a bit more carefully. I believe you are likely correct for those who inherit the telestial kingdom but not the terrestrial or above. Regardless your hell fire and damnation preaching is really tiresome and boring. I know all these scriptures quite well. And my post that you responded to was tongue in cheek. And I am really not to worried. I think Ocam's Razor is on my side.
Teancum Posted October 26, 2015 Posted October 26, 2015 The more I think about my life and the eternities, the more I think I'll be joining Teancum in the Terrestrial world instead of the Celestial. But I have hope I won't go to Telestial or Outder Darkness. It would be easier and more simple if there was only one heaven. Well we may have to encourage each other through our sufferings in hell first.
Stargazer Posted October 26, 2015 Posted October 26, 2015 The more I think about my life and the eternities, the more I think I'll be joining Teancum in the Terrestrial world instead of the Celestial. But I have hope I won't go to Telestial or Outder Darkness. It would be easier and more simple if there was only one heaven. Will you PLEASE get ahold of the book "Odds are You Will Be Exalted" and read it? I don't know how much of what the author writes can be taken as correct doctrine, but I do believe he has a handle on some important facts. The short of the matter is, too many LDS are all downcast about how they don't measure up, but they are just so very wrong! The Atonement of Christ takes care of so much that we perhaps don't understand it. If those who are so downcast about their measuring up thought about it for a moment, they would realize that if things were THAT bad, that virtually NONE of Father's children would be exalted. And I am sure that He didn't plan it to be that way. He only sent us here because the odds were good that we would succeed rather than fail. Why would he send us if he expected virtually none of us to succeed? 2
Stargazer Posted October 26, 2015 Posted October 26, 2015 I think you need to read D&C 76 a bit more carefully. I believe you are likely correct for those who inherit the telestial kingdom but not the terrestrial or above. Regardless your hell fire and damnation preaching is really tiresome and boring. I know all these scriptures quite well. And my post that you responded to was tongue in cheek. And I am really not to worried. I think Ocam's Razor is on my side. And I agree entirely with Teancum. For all that he's a bit of an apostate (and a beloved one, at that), you need to understand that you're addrssing a former Bishop who has a good understanding of the Gospel, even if he's become a bit unbelieving as of late. I remember Teancum in this forum when he was a TBM, so I know whereof I speak. Besides, Tony Frank, I do believe your understanding of the Plan of Salvation is a bit "off". Those sinners who will not repent, and must suffer for their own sins, are the only ones who will see the Telestial Kingdom. Those in the Terrestrial Kingdom will be those who did accept the Savior and are among the beneficiaries of the Atonement, but who were not valiant in the Testimony of Jesus. This will also be the glory of those who heard the Gospel in this life, but did not accept it here, and only do so in the Spirit World. But they still benefit from the Atonement. 1
VideoGameJunkie Posted October 26, 2015 Posted October 26, 2015 Where do the people go who've broken temple covenants?
VideoGameJunkie Posted October 26, 2015 Posted October 26, 2015 (edited) If they do repent after breaking temple covenants multiple times where do they wind up. If they repent each time as best they can. Edited October 26, 2015 by VideoGameJunkie
Calm Posted October 26, 2015 Posted October 26, 2015 (edited) Truly repent as best they can and not make excuses that they are too weak or whatever (they may indeed have a weakness such as addicts do, but that should not be used as an excuse but as a way to understand what is happening and how to change in their repentance where they are able)...I believe where they want to be, including exaltation. Nothing is impossible with God. It is a twisted form of pride to believe that Christ does not have enough atoning power to save oneself because one's sins are too bad or that God doesn't love one for some reason when God's power, love, and mercy is infinite. Edited October 26, 2015 by Calm
Tacenda Posted October 26, 2015 Posted October 26, 2015 I wonder where people go if they quit believing but are endowed and still active. Except they let their TR expire..anyone know?
Calm Posted October 26, 2015 Posted October 26, 2015 (edited) God does. Ask him.Since no mortal knows their future choices, how can they know their destination? Edited October 26, 2015 by Calm
Tacenda Posted October 26, 2015 Posted October 26, 2015 I wonder where people go if they quit believing but are endowed and still active. Except they let their TR expire..anyone know? Never mind, we posted the same time, good answer Calm.
Calm Posted October 26, 2015 Posted October 26, 2015 This is where trust must enter in...do we trust God to do what is right by everyone? Even if it doesn't appear that way now?
VideoGameJunkie Posted October 26, 2015 Posted October 26, 2015 (edited) If the atonement is truly infinite then I'd like to think it applies to me. It's just Satan likes to pick on my brain and create fear and guilt doubts even after I repented. I know guilt and fear feelings don't come from a loving Heavenly Father. It's just hard sometimes after you've repented and then read the Book of Mormon and hear the prophets in there say any sexual sun is 2nd only to murder and then you stop and think wait I was almost as bad as a murderer? It creates bad thoughts in the head. I'm speaking for a friend of course. Haha Edited October 26, 2015 by VideoGameJunkie
Calm Posted October 26, 2015 Posted October 26, 2015 Who are you going to give your power, your will to...Satan or Christ. Christ is capable of loving you.
VideoGameJunkie Posted October 26, 2015 Posted October 26, 2015 Christ has my heart but I have a messed up brain sometimes that I don't know who has power over my mind.
carbon dioxide Posted October 26, 2015 Posted October 26, 2015 The more I think about my life and the eternities, the more I think I'll be joining Teancum in the Terrestrial world instead of the Celestial. But I have hope I won't go to Telestial or Outder Darkness. It would be easier and more simple if there was only one heaven.It would be more simple but also not nearly as fair. Why be faithful and righteous if you can do just a mediocre job but still to the minimum to go to the same place.
carbon dioxide Posted October 26, 2015 Posted October 26, 2015 The only person I've heard with certainty is Cain.Same here but I think Cain will not be alone. I do believe a certain number of apostates will also be joining Cain.
Stargazer Posted October 26, 2015 Posted October 26, 2015 If they do repent after breaking temple covenants multiple times where do they wind up. If they repent each time as best they can. When Peter asked the Lord how many times he was required to forgive someone who had done him wrong, Jesus's response was 70 times 7 -- which is to say "always". If the requirement for us is to forgive until the wrongdoer stops repenting, then how many times will Father forgive?
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