Papal Address To Congress

[The Nehor]

In principle or in production?  I see no reason for two countries, regardless of size, to have a similar constitution and laws.  What does size have to do with it?

 

A lot actually.

[The Nehor]

Actually, I think it is economics rather than politics.  That is part of the problem with the pope's admonitions - the economics make no sense.  Although I appreciate his voice, I don't think anyone needs to follow without thinking about the consequences of our policies.  

 

While economics has to be taken into account in many cases potential economic hardships and difficulties are not a "get out of hell free" card that absolves us from religious and humanitarian duties and obligations. Many of Christ's admonitions make no economic sense. The Law of Consecration definitely does not make economic sense. I am sure that it made no economic sense for the Nephites to take in the refugee Anti-Nephi-Lehis.

 

I have a sneaking suspicion that when we start doing things that make no economic sense in order to help others that our economic problems will fix themselves. I believe God will pour out his blessings for that kind of sacrifice and trust that He will help us as we do his will.

[why me]

 

The Pope talked about Christ to the children in Harlem. Here is a quote from the Washington Post. "Today we want to keep dreaming. We celebrate all the opportunities which enable you, and us adults, not to lose the hope of a better world with greater possibilities. I know that one of the dreams of your parents and teachers is that you can grow up and be happy. It is always good to see children smiling. Here I see you smiling. Keep smiling and help bring joy to everyone you meet.

Because Jesus is joy, and he wants to help us to feel that joy every day of our lives.

But he warned them about someone who wants to steal their dreams:

Who is always sowing mistrust? What’s his name? The devil! The devil is always sowing sadness, because he doesn’t want us to be happy. He doesn’t want us dreaming.

But where there’s joy, Jesus is present."

 

I believe that he was in a catholic school. But the pope missed the opportunity to evangelize the congress and the UN. The pope so far on this trip have stressed popular secular issues and for some catholics it has been a disappontment. Usually popes have been able to mix the both, catholic doctrine and social issues.

 

http://nypost.com/2015/09/25/the-pope-missed-an-opportunity-to-stand-up-for-life/

 

I think that the pope needs to be careful. It has been mentioined that he put out an album soon and although it is a religious album, he is now being compared to a rock star. Have a listen:

 

http://www.nydailynews.com/entertainment/music/pope-francis-release-pop-rock-album-wake-article-1.2374541

 

His advisors are very media savvy but it can get out of hand. Also, the media are hyping him in the US. But the media which is run by corporations and the veryf rich, probably are not that sympathetic to his message. But it does make for a good story especially when he speaks about the more 'liberal' issues.

[Yirgacheffe]

I see nothing of the kind in my post. I think that I gave a good analysis. Read it again. I did not give my opinion at all about what I believe. I stated what others may think. The pope gave a speech where liberal issues were somewhat named and conservative issues were opaque. This was done on purpose. If the pope speaks on secular issues and only secular issues he may be missing an opportunity to speak about catholic moral teachings: Abortion is wrong, same sex marriage is a threat to the traditional family, birth control is wrong etc. But he ignored such things because he knows that most people do not want to hear such things. Better to speak about poverty and love with a mixture of liberal social thinking. 

 

I don't care what he said but many conservative social catholics do not like the change in direction.

Try not to read my mind but you can address the issues in my post.

 

However here is a newsreport about his speech in the UN. I see no  mention  of jesus in this report. It may be good for people to also remember jesus as the savior and spend just a little time telling us about climate change and poverty. And if he does do so, with such secular issues, he can create a  political manifesto that puts christ's social teachings as an example for all to follow.

 

http://nypost.com/2015/09/25/pope-francis-at-the-un/

Your points seem to be he doesn't mention Jesus enough in these secular settings when speaking to people who are NOT members of his flock and that he doesn't preach catholic doctrine to these groups and that he doesn't focus on spiritual things or care if people are close to god.  The only other point I see you making is that you say he does this to be politically correct and retain his popularity.  I see the same sort of criticisms of LDS leadership when they speak on things from those who dislike the LDS church, I don't see why the pope should live up to your expectations anymore than I see why Thomas Monson should live up to the expectation of critics of the LDS church.

 

On your points, I don't see any reason for the pope to push catholic dogma on to or lecture about Jesus to members of congress or the UN.  His is not a slot for prayer or a sermon and he is not there to proselytize, that would be inappropriate.  As far as to just why he doesn't do and say what you believe he should, or whether or on he cares if people are close to god, sorry but I do not believe you  or any of your links have any special insight there no matter how assertively you state his reasoning.  I have opinions too and IMO he has issues that are close to his heart and he speaks on those, he also strikes me as a warm person who truly loves and delights in, and focuses on the people in front of him right now.  Thomas Monson strikes me the same way particularly the part about loving, delighting and focusing on the people right in front of him.

 

 

Spell check wondering:  Why does it flag Monson, can't his name be added?

[carbon dioxide]

Really? You won a Nobel prize!  You are the new Einstein! Congratulations for your great discovery. 

 

Thank You

[TheSkepticChristian]

Actually, I think it is economics rather than politics.  That is part of the problem with the pope's admonitions - the economics make no sense.  Although I appreciate his voice, I don't think anyone needs to follow without thinking about the consequences of our policies.  

 

The Pope is warning us about Global Warming for a reason. Here is a Nature Paper that talks about economic consequences 

http://www.nature.com/articles/nclimate2807.epdf?referrer_access_token=COd6EAWmn7UK619sZqnkRtRgN0jAjWel9jnR3ZoTv0NWlZhzD30NI0yu2RLMboRh5lG70HuIa1VpvfzIBEsull5xpk8DCWqnbJDsa1qEweyL2QLOPPiAHR661TUEETU0vsqrwUYNPJ3Mx7ZIHH_bBHgeHsz1SRjXiv3Fy_AtJXmDTW-T9XUxfYMl6VZGnZ8XSuQ_I0ij9WW1oNSED7zToj6Q-ixuF-JQ8GrENhyS08U%3D&tracking_referrer=www.huffingtonpost.com

 

Pope Francis and the LDS church are against pollution. Even if Global Warming theory is incorrect, we still need to do something about Coal-burning power plants that emit sulfur dioxide, soot, and other pollutants. The American Lung Association and the Clean Air Task Force (CATF) claims that 13,000 people die each year from coal pollution. CATF estimates that every year coal pollution is responsible for 12,000 emergency room visits, 20,000 heart attacks, and over 200,000 asthma attacks. 

 

President Ezra Taft Benson said, “Irreverence for God, of life, and for our fellowmen takes the form of things like littering, heedless strip-mining, [and] pollution of water and air" 

 

Elder Marcus B. Nash said, "The LDS Church wants to be good stewards of the environment, conserve energy and water resources, minimize pollution" 

 

. 

Thank You

 

Your welcome, please enlighten us more, you are a great thinker. Thanks to you I now know that the Pope and scientists are ignorant

Edited September 26, 2015 by TheSkepticChristian

[why me]

Your points seem to be he doesn't mention Jesus enough in these secular settings when speaking to people who are NOT members of his flock and that he doesn't preach catholic doctrine to these groups and that he doesn't focus on spiritual things or care if people are close to god.  The only other point I see you making is that you say he does this to be politically correct and retain his popularity.  I see the same sort of criticisms of LDS leadership when they speak on things from those who dislike the LDS church, I don't see why the pope should live up to your expectations anymore than I see why Thomas Monson should live up to the expectation of critics of the LDS church.

 

On your points, I don't see any reason for the pope to push catholic dogma on to or lecture about Jesus to members of congress or the UN.  His is not a slot for prayer or a sermon and he is not there to proselytize, that would be inappropriate.  As far as to just why he doesn't do and say what you believe he should, or whether or on he cares if people are close to god, sorry but I do not believe you  or any of your links have any special insight there no matter how assertively you state his reasoning.  I have opinions too and IMO he has issues that are close to his heart and he speaks on those, he also strikes me as a warm person who truly loves and delights in, and focuses on the people in front of him right now.  Thomas Monson strikes me the same way particularly the part about loving, delighting and focusing on the people right in front of him.

 

 

 

My points come from conservative catholics and others. The pope has become a media sensation. Why? Mainly because the media needs a 'people's pope' just as much as they needed a 'people's princess'--Diana. It is all hype: the pope's album, pope mugs, pope shirts, pope hats etc and his embracing liberal ideals. It causes a reaction among catholics. Now we all now that the pope did not write his speeches but he endorsed them. And we all know that before he came to the USA there were countless discussions about what his message should be by his advisors and speech writers. And we know that some of the old guard fell into disfavor for their ideas. But here is just one comment from a writer:

 

http://nypost.com/2015/09/25/pope-francis-is-just-another-liberal-political-pundit/

 

Now of course, the church is attempting to expand its reach and to appeal to those who left the church or who are dissatisfied with church teaching and who wish it to change:

 

http://fivethirtyeight.com/datalab/catholics-who-disagree-with-the-vatican-think-the-church-will-change/

 

But at the end of the day, after all the hype, it is still the same church. male priests, no to gay marriage, no to abortion, etc. . Words are just words. There needs to be action behind them in order for the hype to go away.

 

And the catholic church was always focused on poverty in word. But this pope has taken it to the media and played the media very well with good photo shoots of him kissing the deformed, washing the feet of the poor etc.

Edited September 26, 2015 by why me

[saemo]

In such a cynical place, Washington DC, and covered by media that are cynical of Christiantiy, I find it unusually refreshing that cynicism is taking a back seat for a couple of days. It is ironic though, that the cynical void is viewed as planned. Cynical at the lack of cynicism, is amusing, but at the same time, sad.

[Sleeper Cell]

Pope Francis and the LDS church are against pollution. Even if Global Warming theory is incorrect, we still need to do something about Coal-burning power plants that emit sulfur dioxide, soot, and other pollutants. The American Lung Association and the Clean Air Task Force (CATF) claims that 13,000 people die each year from coal pollution. CATF estimates that every year coal pollution is responsible for 12,000 emergency room visits, 20,000 heart attacks, and over 200,000 asthma attacks. 

 

President Ezra Taft Benson said, “Irreverence for God, of life, and for our fellowmen takes the form of things like littering, heedless strip-mining, [and] pollution of water and air" 

 

Elder Marcus B. Nash said, "The LDS Church wants to be good stewards of the environment, conserve energy and water resources, minimize pollution" 

 

Everybody in favor of pollution, please raise your hands.  

 

The phrase “we … need to do something” is, all too often, the precursor to policies that makes things worse.  

 

BTW, does “irreverence for … our fellowmen” include comments such as the following? 

Your welcome, please enlighten us more, you are a great thinker. Thanks to you I now know that the Pope and scientists are ignorant 

[thesometimesaint]

Your points seem to be he doesn't mention Jesus enough in these secular settings when speaking to people who are NOT members of his flock and that he doesn't preach catholic doctrine to these groups and that he doesn't focus on spiritual things or care if people are close to god.  The only other point I see you making is that you say he does this to be politically correct and retain his popularity.  I see the same sort of criticisms of LDS leadership when they speak on things from those who dislike the LDS church, I don't see why the pope should live up to your expectations anymore than I see why Thomas Monson should live up to the expectation of critics of the LDS church.

 

On your points, I don't see any reason for the pope to push catholic dogma on to or lecture about Jesus to members of congress or the UN.  His is not a slot for prayer or a sermon and he is not there to proselytize, that would be inappropriate.  As far as to just why he doesn't do and say what you believe he should, or whether or on he cares if people are close to god, sorry but I do not believe you  or any of your links have any special insight there no matter how assertively you state his reasoning.  I have opinions too and IMO he has issues that are close to his heart and he speaks on those, he also strikes me as a warm person who truly loves and delights in, and focuses on the people in front of him right now.  Thomas Monson strikes me the same way particularly the part about loving, delighting and focusing on the people right in front of him.

 

 

Spell check wondering:  Why does it flag Monson, can't his name be added?

 

Highlight then click add to dictionary

[TheSkepticChristian]

The phrase “we … need to do something” is, all too often, the precursor to policies that makes things worse.  

 

?? So what do you plan to do, will you follow the advice of LDS prophets?

 

 

BTW, does “irreverence for … our fellowmen” include comments such as the following? 

 

No, I praised him. 

[Robert F. Smith]

Pope Francis is the only Pope we know that received a prayer and blessing from the First Presidency. 

 

"On behalf of the leadership and members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, we extend our warmest wishes to His Holiness Pope Francis and pray he will feel the peace of the Lord as he serves as pontiff of the Catholic Church"

http://www.mormonnewsroom.org/article/first-president-offers-warmest-wishes-pope-francis

 

So I hope my fellow LDS take his words seriously 

It appears to me that Pope Francis often receives more respect from non-Roman Catholics than he does from his own flock.

[TheSkepticChristian]

It appears to me that Pope Francis often receives more respect from non-Roman Catholics than he does from his own flock.

 

It is an American thing. Catholics in Mexico and South America have a lot of respect for him. I think Catholics in Europe too. 

[Robert F. Smith]

..................................................................................... The pope has become a media sensation. Why? Mainly because the media needs a 'people's pope' just as much as they needed a 'people's princess'--Diana. It is all hype: the pope's album, pope mugs, pope shirts, pope hats etc and his embracing liberal ideals. It causes a reaction among catholics. Now we all now that the pope did not write his speeches but he endorsed them. And we all know that before he came to the USA there were countless discussions about what his message should be by his advisors and speech writers. .............................................................................................................

 

And the catholic church was always focused on poverty in word. But this pope has taken it to the media and played the media very well with good photo shoots of him kissing the deformed, washing the feet of the poor etc.

Do we in fact know that the Pope did not write his speeches?  CFR

 

So the cynics are the most objective analysts?  It's all just hype . . .

[thesometimesaint]

The climate has been changing since the world began.  Plus if the end times events are based in part on a changed climate, I am all for it.   Poverty is an important issue.  The debate is what should be done to deal with it.  If it means bigger government and forced wealth redistribution, I am against it.  Some of what the Pope advocates is contradictory.  He would like to help the poor yet he wants more to be done on global warming (which means higher taxes and things costing more) and more immigrants to be brought in which only requires more taxes to be collected to pay for it.  But perhaps that is the ultimate poverty program.  Make everyone poor and then everyone will be equal.

 

Lets talk about Volkswagen.

[Thinking]

This does not necessarily suggest that anything he teaches is correct.  We are to pray for our enemies.  The Pope is not our enemy.  But praying for him does not mean LDS necessarily need to heed the Pope's message.

 

Therefore, man should strive all his days to increase his intelligence and learn all the truths he can. He should realize that the gospel of Jesus Christ embraces all truth wherever it may be found, and as he gains knowledge and truth he should teach it to his fellowmen. N. Eldon Tanner

 

Emphasis mine.

[The Nehor]

 

Everybody in favor of pollution, please raise your hands.  

 

The phrase “we … need to do something” is, all too often, the precursor to policies that makes things worse.  

 

And the phrase "We should do nothing about it" has a better track record?

[thesometimesaint]

It's the Law of Unintended Consequences. But to use that as an excuse to do nothing puts us right back in the caves. Afraid of the ghosties, gholies, long legged beasties and things that go bump in the night.

Edited September 26, 2015 by thesometimesaint

[why me]

Do we in fact know that the Pope did not write his speeches?  CFR

 

So the cynics are the most objective analysts?  It's all just hype . . .

 

http://vaticaninsider.lastampa.it/en/the-vatican/detail/articolo/francesco-francis-francisco-29409/

 

We tend to forget that the pope is also head of state. His speeches at the UN and in congress were conducted as head of state speeches, thus, he did not mention catholic dogma. I am almost certain that the speech in congress was written by a young advisor or priest. The speech writer pushed many of the right buttons in the american mind, by including Martin Luther King etc The person who wrote it knew much of the american psyche. The pope may be intuned but we need to remember his age. He needs help for sure from the vatican's secretary of state etc.

 

Not only does the pope have a speech advisor but he also has very media savvy people around him. Photo  ops are arranged by having a good photohgrapher handy or he knows what will make the public headlines when he kisses a deformed person, or does something that a photo will magnify. He is a head of state  and just like any head of state, he needs to control the media.

Edited September 26, 2015 by why me

[Sleeper Cell]

?? So what do you plan to do, will you follow the advice of LDS prophets?

 

 

Let’s see.  This year, I’ve cut my water consumption by 30% in response to the California drought and kept my monthly electric bill under $50.00, despite an unusually hot and humid summer.  And I have been very active in a community effort opposing a proposed oil extraction project. (I do not oppose “Big Oil,” or oil production, per se).

 

What have you done?   

[Kenngo1969]

Really? You won a Nobel prize!  You are the new Einstein! Congratulations for your great discovery. ...

 

 

 

As though anyone needed yet another reminder of what a real weiner winner you are.

 

Already on limited ... cruising toward banned?

[Kenngo1969]

... Your welcome, please enlighten us more, you are a great thinker. Thanks to you I now know that the Pope and scientists are ignorant

 

 

 

 

BTW, does “irreverence for … our fellowmen” include comments such as the following? [sleeper Cell quoted TSC's "praise" of Carbon Dioxide]

 

 

 

... No, I praised him. 

That's nothing more than disingenuous Bravo-Sierra.  

 

Go ahead, keep right on peeing on our legs and telling us it's raining, but anyone with half a brain can see it for what it is.

[Sleeper Cell]

It's the Law of Unintended Consequences. But to use that as an excuse to do nothing puts us right back in the caves. Afraid of the ghosties, gholies, long legged beasties and things that go bump in the night.

 

I do not propose doing nothing.  I  make a distinction between unforeseeable unintended consequences and negligence (foreseeable unintended consequences).  At the very least, shouldn't one subject the proposed alternative to the same level of critical scrutiny as the current practice?

 

Speaking of foreseeable unintended consequences, we may be on the verge of having the mods close this thread for “politics,“ so you and Nehor may have the last word, if you wish.  

Edited September 27, 2015 by Sleeper Cell

[Yirgacheffe]

Highlight then click add to dictionary

If I did that would it add it for everyone?  I just thought it was weird that his name wouldn't be included in the dictionary on this board, just like I would expect that say Francis would be included on a Catholic board or Obama on a political board.

[Yirgacheffe]

My points come from conservative catholics and others. The pope has become a media sensation. Why? Mainly because the media needs a 'people's pope' just as much as they needed a 'people's princess'--Diana. It is all hype: the pope's album, pope mugs, pope shirts, pope hats etc and his embracing liberal ideals. It causes a reaction among catholics. Now we all now that the pope did not write his speeches but he endorsed them. And we all know that before he came to the USA there were countless discussions about what his message should be by his advisors and speech writers. And we know that some of the old guard fell into disfavor for their ideas. But here is just one comment from a writer:

 

http://nypost.com/2015/09/25/pope-francis-is-just-another-liberal-political-pundit/

 

Now of course, the church is attempting to expand its reach and to appeal to those who left the church or who are dissatisfied with church teaching and who wish it to change:

 

http://fivethirtyeight.com/datalab/catholics-who-disagree-with-the-vatican-think-the-church-will-change/

 

But at the end of the day, after all the hype, it is still the same church. male priests, no to gay marriage, no to abortion, etc. . Words are just words. There needs to be action behind them in order for the hype to go away.

 

And the catholic church was always focused on poverty in word. But this pope has taken it to the media and played the media very well with good photo shoots of him kissing the deformed, washing the feet of the poor etc.

And to me you still resemble the anit-Mormons, sorry but that's just the way I see what you say.  I will not respond to you anymore, you are interfering with my rose colored glasses and it makes me uncomfortable.