Taking A "sabbatical" From Activity In The Church

[jkwilliams]

You know maybe I never went through this because as a convert I had always wanted a role like this.

 

I had seriously considered becoming a Catholic priest as a kid, and had a strong urge to help people spiritually my whole life.  Then as an atheist I got political, but finally figured out that was not working for me- it was not fulfilling.

 

I am certain that if I had been raised Mormon I most likely would have rebelled and either left the church or gone inactive for a long period.

 

So maybe we all need a little Rumspringa after all.

 

My wife recently said she thought I'd go back to the church someday, but so far, the Rumspringa has lasted about 10 years.

[jkwilliams]

We're working hard to push the fence sitters off into outer darkness.  

 

Hey, that's my job! Seriously, though, anyone who would leave the church because of something I said is an idiot. I have never met anyone who has said I influenced them to leave the church, and it would make me sad if it happened.

[ttribe]

We're working hard to push the fence sitters off into outer darkness.  

 

Well, in that case, I may have just found you this year's MVP candidate.

[Bobbieaware]

I am not being disingenuous at all, and I don't appreciate your insinuating as much.

You extol the virtues of personal revelation as a positive teaching of the Church, while leaving out the fact (a fact of which you are very much aware) that in the LDS Church personal revelation is only half of the revelatory program, a half that cannot and must not exist alone . So you knowingly hold up the LDS principle personal revelation as a positive influence in one's life, but you do so as a ploy to put distance between the members and the leaders of the Church by suggesting the principle of personal revelation make it perfectly alright to walk away from the Church and to go it alone.

[KevinG]

 

So maybe we all need a little Rumspringa after all.

 

I'm human and I don't beat up on my kids for sinning or even bad judgement.  If I couldn't love them despite their faults that would be a horrible reflection on what a Heavenly Father is.

 

Yet I do encourage them to go to the Bishop when that type of repentance is needed.  There has been more than one occasion where a child asked me if they could look around at other religions and beliefs and I said "Sure, but be obedient to your covenants and our values.  We don't do Rumspringa!"  

[ttribe]

You extol the virtues of personal revelation as a positive teaching of the Church, while leaving out the fact (a fact of which you are very much aware) that in the LDS Church personal revelation is only half of the revelatory program, a half that cannot and must not exist alone . So you knowingly hold up the LDS principle personal revelation as a positive influence in one's life, but you do so as a ploy to put distance between the members and the leaders of the Church by suggesting the principle of personal revelation make it perfectly alright to walk away from the Church and to go it alone.

 

A "ploy"?  Do you seriously think John is engaging in such machinations in his head as to constitute actively plotting to lead people away from the Church?  If you so, you have some significant paranoia guiding your thinking.

[KevinG]

You extol the virtues of personal revelation as a positive teaching of the Church, while leaving out the fact (a fact of which you are very much aware) that in the LDS Church personal revelation is only half of the revelatory program, a half that cannot and must not exist alone . So you knowingly hold up the LDS principle personal revelation as a positive influence in one's life, but you do so as a ploy to put distance between the members and the leaders of the Church by suggesting the principle of personal revelation make it perfectly alright to walk away from the Church and to go it alone.

 

Or put another way.  There are always exceptions to the program.  But if you find yourself always being the exception you may have left the program.

 

With Brothers and Sisters (all God's chidlren) we must be willing to leave the door open to the prodigal son, or our attitudes could turn them away when they most need to come home.

 

I disagree with a lot of JKWilliams' and ttribe's positions, but I'm hoping my disagreements aren't always disagreeable.  (And yes I know I have good days and bad days with this.)

[jkwilliams]

You extol the virtues of personal revelation as a positive teaching of the Church, while leaving out the fact (a fact of which you are very much aware) that in the LDS Church personal revelation is only half of the revelatory program, a half that cannot and must not exist alone . So you knowingly hold up the LDS principle personal revelation as a positive influence in one's life, but you do so as a ploy to put distance between the members and the leaders of the Church by suggesting the principle of personal revelation make it perfectly alright to walk away from the Church and to go it alone.

 

I'm not holding up anything as a positive influence. I'm simply saying that, according to my understanding, a church member is well within his or her right to receive personal revelation, even if it conflicts with what church leaders are teaching. If you see that as some kind of anti-Mormon ploy, that's your prerogative, but it's kind of bizarre. Why would I care to get people to walk away from the church? What would be the point?

[ttribe]

I'm not holding up anything as a positive influence. I'm simply saying that, according to my understanding, a church member is well within his or her right to receive personal revelation, even if it conflicts with what church leaders are teaching. If you see that as some kind of anti-Mormon ploy, that's your prerogative, but it's kind of bizarre. Why would I care to get people to walk away from the church? What would be the point?

 

Your secret membership in the Anti-Mormon Rewards Club, whereby you accumulate points to use for discounts on future purchases of The Godmakers and Jack Chick tracts.

[jkwilliams]

Or put another way.  There are always exceptions to the program.  But if you find yourself always being the exception you may have left the program.

 

With Brothers and Sisters (all God's chidlren) we must be willing to leave the door open to the prodigal son, or our attitudes could turn them away when they most need to come home.

 

I disagree with a lot of JKWilliams' and ttribe's positions, but I'm hoping my disagreements aren't always disagreeable.  (And yes I know I have good days and bad days with this.)

 

I would hope that we can disagree without assigning bad faith and evil motives to each other. I do appreciate your kindness and gentle tone. I have good days and bad days, too, but I am trying.

[mfbukowski]

The Church in general may have little to worry about, but from the point of view of active, believing members I think you'll have to admit even congenial critics fall in somewhere on the continuum of counterproductive influences, especially within their own personal spheres of influence. If all men and women are going to have to give account for whatever they have done -- or not done -- that has had a negative.effect on the building of the kingdom of God, it might be best to hold one's piece just in case it turns out the Church actually is true. Joking or not, light hearted or not, tongue in cheek or not, a wavering, troubled soul might very well take what's written quite seriously -- seriously enough to tip the balance.

You know I have often thought that we are either part of the solution or part of the problem. That I think is common in the ward because that is how the system works. 

 

I guess leadership callings tend to do that to you. This is the thought process:

 

"We have this list of people I only have to worry about a little, but I can count on their help to help me run the ward, and then I have this list of people who are the people who really need help and cannot help out for whatever reason.  So now I have to allocate these 100 people to make sure all 300 are helped some way or other.  The 100 are part of the solution, and the other 200 are not contributing but still needing help.  So the total is 300 and all need help, but 200 of the three hundred need service but don't contribute. 

 

So one now goes out there and advocates sitting on your hands for year very publicly.   Great.  Thanks a lot for your 'help'"

 

That's the way it looks from a kind of cynical leadership position, and often that is the way I am afraid, it is regarded.

 

So is that a right attitude?   Is that Christlike?

 

I don't think so, but how do we keep out of that kind of attitude?   Serving for the pure love of Christ is obviously not easy, and that is really the bottom line of this thread.

 

How does one become a leader who serves with the pure love of Christ??

Edited August 19, 2015 by mfbukowski

[jkwilliams]

Your secret membership in the Anti-Mormon Rewards Club, whereby you accumulate points to use for discounts on future purchases of The Godmakers and Jack Chick tracts.

 

Jack Chick. heh. There's a name I haven't thought of in a long time. What a nutjob.

[KevinG]

The church is continually telling us to share our faith in an authentic way. Sister Riess shared what helped her participate fully and without reservation in the church by getting through a dark time of her life. I don't get the problem.

 

I've thought carefully about your response to me.  We are to share our testimony and faith, I agree.  Yet sometimes I cringe as personal issues and attempts at unconventional self-therapy get shared publicly.  This is not an issue I have with Sister Riess but a larger issue I have with what social media has become.  Sometimes I wonder if people are sharing because they think they are helping others, or if it is more of a hope for others validating our choices, no matter what they are.  It could simply be my issue.

[smac97]

Offering it as an option to those contemplating leaving the church is absolutely okay in my opinion.

==Not in mine. I just can't contemplate a scenario where God would be pleased with one of His covenant people encouraging others of His covenant people to disobey His commandments.

> Except the whole point of the post was how a break helped her return with vigor to serve in the Church (which she has done for the last 14 years).

==As I have said several times now: There are all sorts of ways we can and should cope with "Weary in Well Doing" syndrome. Utter abandonment of sacred duties and covenants is not one of them.

> Consider the following from Elder Oaks:

==Again: Do you think President Monson would agree or disagree with her recommendation for other Latter-day Saints to ditch activity in the Church for a year?

> Your characterization of her obedience and righteousness is uncharitable.

==I don't think so. She is openly encouraging other Latter-day Saints to disobey God's commandments. I find that deeply troubling. I don't think saying as much is "uncharitable."

> You repeatedly called her a covenant breaker. What particular covenant did she admit to breaking again?

==She is encouraging her fellow Latter-day Saints to disobey God's commandments. She is doing so by bragging about her deliberate decision to disobey God's commandments. We have extensive counsel from the prophets and apostles regarding Sabbath observance:

Here (emphases added): "The Lord commanded: 'Go ye out from among the wicked. Save yourselves. Be ye clean that bear the vessels of the Lord.' A critical element in observing this commandment is to 'remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.' ... It is a day to partake of the sacrament, a day 'to pay [our] devotions unto the Most High,'  a day of 'fasting and prayer,'   a day to offer our time, talent, and means in service to our God and our fellowmen,  a day to '[confess our] sins [to our] brethren, and before the Lord.'  It is also a good day to pay our tithes and fast offerings, a day to be marked by sincere sacrifice of the pursuits and pleasures of the world. It is a day to keep the Sabbath covenant,  a day of 'rejoicing and prayer,'  a day of 'cheerful hearts and countenances.'"

 

Here (emphasis added): "Because the Sabbath is a holy day, it should be reserved for worthy and holy activities. Abstaining from work and recreation is not enough. In fact, those who merely lounge about doing nothing on the Sabbath fail to keep the day holy. In a revelation given to Joseph Smith in 1831, the Lord commanded: 'That thou mayest more fully keep thyself unspotted from the world, thou shalt go to the house of prayer and offer up thy sacraments upon my holy day; for verily this is a day appointed unto you to rest from your labors, and to pay thy devotions unto the Most High' (D&C 59:9–10). In harmony with this revelation, Church members attend sacrament meeting each week. Other Sabbath-day activities may include praying, meditating, studying the scriptures and the teachings of latter-day prophets, writing letters to family members and friends, reading wholesome material, visiting the sick and distressed, and attending other Church meetings."

 

Here: "The Lord has given the Sabbath day for your benefit and has commanded you to keep it holy. Honoring the Sabbath day includes attending all your Church meetings. Go to sacrament meeting prepared to worship the Lord and partake worthily of the sacrament. During sacrament meeting, be reverent and willing to learn. Refrain from activities that would distract you or others during this sacred meeting. Be on time for your meetings. As you do these things, you invite the Spirit of the Lord to be with you."

 

==The prophets and apostles, both in scripture and in talks, have always emphasized the importance of the Sabbath and of activity in the Church.  The article linked to in the OP openly encourages disobedience to this counsel.  She is setting herself up as an alternative voice to that of the Brethren and the Scriptures.  I find that deeply troubling.

 

> She spoke of her experience and what worked for her.

 

==As I said in the OP: At the end of her "sabbatical" she landed on her feet, and I'm glad of that.  But I think there would be many people who, having followed her advice and abandoned their covenants for an extended period of time, would not be so fortunate.

 

> She offered it as an option that might work for certain people in certain circumstances. Your characterization of what she said is uncharitable.

 

==It is not.  She is openly encouraging other Latter-day Saints to disobey God's commandments.  Speaking the truth is not uncharitable.

 

Thanks,

 

-Smac

[KevinG]

I would hope that we can disagree without assigning bad faith and evil motives to each other. I do appreciate your kindness and gentle tone. I have good days and bad days, too, but I am trying.

 

Divining motives is always a very bad idea.  Even with a seer stone.

[ttribe]

Jack Chick. heh. There's a name I haven't thought of in a long time. What a nutjob.

 

As a missionary in TN and KY, I used to see these things with some regularity.  Their value as a source of laughter was right up there with Baptist preachers who used to scream at us when we tracted in their neighborhoods, or the look on the faces of the Jehovah's Witnesses who knocked on our apartment door and found themselves talking to a pair of Mormon missionaries.

[Ahab]

Okay, time for me to chime in. Lots of people are getting an unnecessarily negative feeling about the issue in the OP.

First of all, the term inactive is not a correct term to apply to anyone because we are all active in one way or another. The preferred terms now are less active or fully active, and the reference to activity refers to being active in living by gospel principles. Meaning that even the members who no longer attend Church meetings or accept callings in the Church are still considered to be active members if they are still living by gospel principles even though they may be "less" active than other members.

Attending Church meetings and accepting Church callings are only some of the ways we serve others and we can still be active Church members by living by gospel principles in some other ways.

Secondly, I've been to some meetings in other churches not affiliated with TCOJCOLDS where I have felt the Spirit very strongly there, too, so we needn't suppose the less active member "on Sabbatical" referred to in the OP is putting the Church down in some way. A change of perspective is good when it helps us learn from the Spirit in some other ways.

And there are some other good points that were made by the member "on Sabbatical" too, which I am not going to get into right now.

My main point is that taking a break from certain kinds of activities that members of the Church in good standing can honorably take a break from does not constitute becoming apostate, and less condemnation from members against that would be a good thing.

Living by gospel principles is what we should be doing, whether or not we are less active or more active than others who do.

[jkwilliams]

As a missionary in TN and KY, I used to see these things with some regularity.  Their value as a source of laughter was right up there with Baptist preachers who used to scream at us when we tracted in their neighborhoods, or the look on the faces of the Jehovah's Witnesses who knocked on our apartment door and found themselves talking to a pair of Mormon missionaries.

 

One day my companion and I were having lunch at the pensión, and the lady who cooked for us called out, Elderes! Elderes! We ran into the kitchen to see what was the matter, and she pointed outside, where two Jehovah's Witnesses were knocking at the gate. We opened the door and stepped outside. The look on their faces was priceless, and they quickly beat a hasty retreat.

[mfbukowski]

I'm human and I don't beat up on my kids for sinning or even bad judgement.  If I couldn't love them despite their faults that would be a horrible reflection on what a Heavenly Father is.

 

Yet I do encourage them to go to the Bishop when that type of repentance is needed.  There has been more than one occasion where a child asked me if they could look around at other religions and beliefs and I said "Sure, but be obedient to your covenants and our values.  We don't do Rumspringa!"  

No and I do not advocate it.  But as having survived the '60's I had enough street cred to tell my kids the reality of how much "fun" it is to go out and get drunk and vomit and have car accidents and end up not knowing where you were or what you did, and wake up in a strange place, clueless, and then tell the kids "Go ahead- go have your fun" pointing at the door.   It worked for me.  Having sense thank God, they didn't follow in my footsteps.

 

But if I had been active LDS my whole life, that street cred would have gone out the door.   So I understand your position and have no clue how I would handle it under those circumstances.

[jkwilliams]

Divining motives is always a very bad idea.  Even with a seer stone.

 

I suspect most people don't fully understand their own motivations, so trying to divine someone else's is a dicey proposition.

[halconero]

What you did brought you closer to God. What she did brought her closer to God. Why do you feel the need to call her dumb or intellectually misguided? Is it impossible for you to fathom that others might walk a different path on their journey to the divine? Have you met Sister Riess? Are you familiar with her work or her life?

Yes I have met Sister Reiss.

If goes contrary to commandment then it won't take them closer to the divine. It is by divine mandate that we gather regularly to partake of the sacrament, enjoy communal fasting, and bear testimony.

Disciples, prophets, and even Christ have a habit of calling people disregarding commandments "foolish," the scriptural equivalent of misguided and dumb.

Edited August 19, 2015 by halconero

[KevinG]

 

But if I had been active LDS my whole life, that street cred would have gone out the door.   So I understand your position and have no clue how I would handle it under those circumstances.

 

Being a convert has allowed my wife and I to teach the relative values of the dark side vs. the light side of the force.  I would have been very challenged to raise an LDS family in the middle of Zion (Utah and environs).  I have to admit to liking the fact that I could contrast our lives with those around us.  "We don't smoke because we're Mormon and we covenanted not to..." vs. "Yeah but Johnny's a Mormon and he smokes".

[KevinG]

I suspect most people don't fully understand their own motivations, so trying to divine someone else's is a dicey proposition.

 

Sex then food.  Or as we get older food then sex.

 

Its not that hard.  We are men.

[jkwilliams]

Sex then food.  Or as we get older food then sex.

 

Its not that hard.  We are men.

 

The men's prayer: I'm a man ... but I can change ... If I have to ... I guess.

[Bobbieaware]

And some of those same people might very well look at your posting style as being so off-putting as to drive them in the opposite direction from which you intended.

The truth is always off-putting. Anyway, you may not have to worry about my style much longer because I've come to realize no matter how a defender of the Church has framed his or her arguments on this board, there appears to not be even a single instance of a formerly-believing critic who has been persuaded to renew their faith. So I'm persuaded it's best to just ignore certain individuals (I encourage them to ignore me as well) because trying to do otherwise has proved to be an utter waste of time and effort. I'm also sure those on the other side are just as frustrated as I am that they haven't been able to convince me to begin to doubt the Church. So no hard feelings, but enough is enough.

A technical question: I believe there's a way to put individual board participants on "ignore." I'd like to know how to do it.