Taking A "sabbatical" From Activity In The Church

[jkwilliams]

Because I'm an introvert, doing that kind of studying on my own is my ultimate definition of taking it easy. Dealing only with myself and my issues and ignoring everyone else's would be an awesome vacation! :pardon;

What are your thoughts on why an hour each Sunday at a Protestant church was doable for her but an hour at sacrament meeting was not?

 

For some reason, you made me remember something from my youth. From the time I was born until I was 5 years old, I spent at least one night a week in the hospital in Los Angeles. I don't remember all that much about it other than the nurses spoiled me rotten. When I was 17, my sister was hospitalized, and we went to visit her. There was a smell or something in that hospital that just caused me to have what I would call a panic attack. I had to get out of there, and I didn't know why. I couldn't calm down until I was outside in the parking lot. I'm assuming whatever it was triggered some unconscious and bad memories from my early childhood.

 

It's possible that going to the same building and seeing the same people and hearing the same words might have caused stress for Sister Riess. I can't say, but if she needed a break, why not?

Edited August 19, 2015 by jkwilliams

[Bobbieaware]

I'm not debating your position but do you think it wrong for one person to say to another that they should do what they feel is right for them?

Many, many people throughout the ages would agree with the premise that no one has the right to tell someone else what they should do with their lives, especially if the recipient of the unwanted advise already feels good about the behaviors that are being called into question. This is why the prophets of God have been so consistently unpopular with the masses over the generations.

[jkwilliams]

Many, many people throughout the ages would agree with the premise that no one has the right to tell someone else what they should do with their lives, especially if the recipient of the unwanted advise already feels good about the behaviors that are being called into question. This is why the prophets of God have been so consistently unpopular with the masses over the generations.

 

As I recall, we are supposed to seek personal revelation for ourselves and those within our stewardship. It seems to me that if we received personal revelation that we should take a break from church, we are well within our right and responsibility to do so.

[Bobbieaware]

Well, I do have a reputation to uphold as the worst kind of anti-Mormon there is. At least that's what someone told me.

The worst kind of anti-Mormon is the wolf in sheep's clothing, and based on the fact that you're not hiding anything -- at least on this board -- I doubt you fit the bill. So your accuser is wrong.

Edited August 19, 2015 by Bobbieaware

[BookofMormonLuvr]

Having visited a few non-denominational churches, I can completely understand how an hour there is doable, while an hour at Sacrament meeting is not.

First, she didn't know anyone. You can slip in get your praise on and leave. You aren't even forced to sign the visitor's card.

Second, the work is done by, generally, a paid staff. You can just go and enjoy the work of others.

Third, modern praise can be both spiritual and quite refreshing, if done correctly. I don't know where the Restoration developed this idea that solemnity equals proper worship, but somberness week after week after week can get to you, especially if you are prone to depression.

 

[jkwilliams]

The worst kind of anti-Mormon is the wolf in sheeps clothing, and based on the fact that you're not hiding anything -- at least on this board -- I doubt you fit the bill. So your accuser is wrong.

 

If I'm what passes for an anti-Mormon, the church has nothing to worry about. 

[Bobbieaware]

As I recall, we are supposed to seek personal revelation for ourselves and those within our stewardship. It seems to me that if we received personal revelation that we should take a break from church, we are well within our right and responsibility to do so.

More sage advice from the board's inspired and inspiring expert on all things LDS.

[jkwilliams]

More sage advice from the board's inspired and inspiring expert on all things LDS.

 

That wasn't very nice. 

[smac97]

This is not what Jana does.

==That is what she does. She is encouraging struggling Latter-day Saints to go inactive (describing it with the far more palatable "take a sabbatical").

 

Sister Riess offers a middle path for those thinking of just quitting altogether. She isn't sharing this in Sunday School, or preaching this as officially endorsed by the Church.

==So encouraging other Latter-day Saints to go inactive is okay as long as she doesn't say this during Sunday School?

==Really?

> She is saying hold on, you don't need to quit. If things are really bad for you right now, maybe you just need a break.

==A year-long break. No renewal of covenants. No service in the Church. No attendance at the temple.

==You make it sound like she is encouraging others to remain active in the Church. She's not.

==Here's an honest question: Do you think President Monson would agree or disagree with her recommendation for other Latter-day Saints to ditch activity in the Church for a year?

> It worked for her and it worked for Seth Payne.

==And for many, many others, long-term inactivity in the Church becomes a permanent thing. I believe that's why we have commandments about keeping the Sabbath day holy (particularly D&C 59:9).

> Prophets and Apostles have counseled us to be authentic and share our faith.

==But they have not counseled us to encourage our fellow Latter-day Saints to disobey the commandments of God. I don't think any of them have had that sort of thing when they have encouraged "authenticity."

==The Brethren have also counseled us to keep the Sabbath day, to attend Church regularly, to attend the temple regularly, to accept and magnify callings, and to do all these things in such a way as to not exhaust ourselves. But the article in the OP represents a voice that recommends an alternative course of action, namely, to disobey D&C 59:9 for an extended period of time, to stop serving in callings, to stop attending the temple, and so on.

==That is unsound, feckless advice, particularly when given by a Latter-day Saint to other Latter-day Saints.

> Jana is doing just that.

==Oh, come on. Are you seriously going to suggest that prophets and apostles would endorse her advocacy of Latter-day Saints deliberately choosing to go inactive?

> Her path isn't for everyone, but it has worked for her. If it helps someone who is thinking of leaving the church to return to not do so isn't that a win?

==As I said previously: There are all sorts of ways we can and should cope with "Weary in Well Doing" syndrome. Utter abandonment of sacred duties and covenants is not one of them.

> And can't we discuss this without calling Jana a sinning, lying, dumb, covenant breaker?

==I've criticized her counsel to other Latter-day Saints. I haven't accused her of doing anything she hasn't openly admitted in a blog post published to the world. And I don't think I've said anything about her "lying" or being "dumb."

> Not all those words are yours, but your OP certainly set the tone of the thread.

==A Latter-day Saint is taking it upon herself to encourage other Latter-day Saints to disobey the commandments of God. I find that deeply troubling.

Thanks,

-Smac

Edited August 19, 2015 by smac97

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

==A Latter-day Saint is taking it upon herself to encourage other Latter-day Saints to disobey the commandments of God. I find that deeply troubling.

Thanks,

-Smac

How judgmental. The unmitigated gall. The horror that you actually speak the truth. 

[Bobbieaware]

That wasn't very nice.

I meant that sincerely. I did some role playing and imagined I was one the board participants who once believed but no longer believes. For this group, I would say my comment is likely very accurate. You really do know your stuff.

Edited August 19, 2015 by Bobbieaware

[jkwilliams]

Why are you offering active members advise if i

I meant that sincerely. I did some role playing and imagined I was one the board participants who once believed but no longer believes. For this group, I would say my comment is likely very accurate. You really do know your stuff.

 

I offered no advice. I simply restated something I've been taught my whole life: I can receive personal revelation for myself and my family and those within my stewardship.

[smac97]

The church is continually telling us to share our faith in an authentic way. Sister Riess shared what helped her participate fully and without reservation in the church by getting through a dark time of her life. I don't get the problem.

Let me provide an illustration from my youth that may clarify my point of view: As a young man, I remember attending a priesthood meeting during the three-hour block. The man giving the lesson was, I think, relative new to activity in the Church. He was clearly nervous, but he pushed ahead with the lesson about the Word of Wisdom. There wasn't much that he said that I had not heard before, until he tried to personalize the lesson by saying something like this: "So the Word of Wisdom says we should not drink or smoke or do drugs, so don't do those things. However, if you're really curious about those things, go ahead and try them out a little bit, but then stop again and don't do them after that."

Suffice it to say, this did not go over well with the other YM leaders. With great tact and courtesy, one of the other leaders took over and "clarified" that we should not dabble in substance abuse to satisfy our curiosity, and that we should adhere to the Word of Wisdom.

I think it is important that we acknowledge what I have described as "Weary in Well Doing" syndrome. I think individuals, families and church leaders should be cognizant of this sort of thing and take ameliorative steps to address it.

However, I utterly reject the sentiment expressed in the article linked to in the OP, namely, that deliberately choosing to disobey God's commandments is just okey-dokey. There are all sorts of ways we can and should cope with "Weary in Well Doing" syndrome. Utter abandonment of sacred duties and covenants is not one of them.

Thanks,

-Smac

[Bobbieaware]

I offered no advice. I simply restated something I've been taught my whole life: I can receive personal revelation for myself and my family and those within my stewardship.

See my revised post above. But I must say you are being cheeky and disingenuous because you know the Church teaches its members that true inspiration comes by a combination of following the living prophets and also receiving receiving personal revelation. As an expert, you know there is no leader of the Church, past or present, who would ever say leaves of absence are in keeping with true, valiant faithfulness.

[jkwilliams]

See my revised post above. But I must say you are being cheeky and disingenuous because you know the Church teaches its members that true inspiration comes by a combination of following the living prophets and also receiving receiving personal revelation. As an expert, you know there is no leader of the Church, past or present, who would ever say leaves of absence are in keeping with true, valiant faithfulness.

 

I am not being disingenuous at all, and I don't appreciate your insinuating as much. 

[mfbukowski]

Yet we live in a society (in America) in which people do not take vacations.  We are alone in the advanced industrial world in our lack of standard annual vacations.  In other countries, the accepted norm is a 4 to 6 week vacation every year, without fail.  Americans in general (and Mormons in particular) just don't understand why a vacation is important.  Why are Americans working more and enjoying it less?  Why has income remained stagnant now for decades?  Except for the very rich.  Perhaps we can reach a point of diminishing returns in any area of life, including religious commitment.

 

And in the academic world, a sabbatical is virtually guaranteed.  Would anyone begrudge Hugh Nibley for the sabbaticals he took at Johns Hopkins University, and at U.C. Berkeley?  BYU was without benefit of his extraordinary skills for a year in each case.  Others had to fill in for him then, just as they do now permanently -- since he has left us for that great Roundup in the Sky.  Giddiyup hoss !!

Well I am certainly not going to come out against vacations, unions, the minimum wage, the flag and apple pie!  Obviously they are necessary.   But a year?

 

I have never had a "job" in my life (oops washing dishes in college- does that count?) I have always had my own business and business owners, farmers and the like, gotta actually be productive on a daily basis.   You know, jes' us plain hard workin' folk.    Gotta milk the cows, watch your positions, and do a few options trades on a daily basis. That's all us simple folk know. 

But there are definitely advantages to a subsidized life style. 

(You know I have to pull your leg a little bit about politics) 

 

I doubt that academic sabbaticals are spent "not working", as you point out, Nibley WAS working- just in a different way which was broadening.  

 

To me the analogy is more like having a calling for too long, and that is why bishops are usually in for 5 years or so and then onto something else- "on sabbatical" from being a bishop and on to new horizons, like my poor former bishop who got called to be Stake President while being a bishop- no break-  which means he has now been in a major leadership calling about 14 years straight.

 

Almost like an Apostle's calling which never ends.

 

So yes, I would say if you have to take off, take off.  Agency is the prime directive after all, and no, nobody knows what it's like to be in another person's shoes.

[SeekingUnderstanding]

That is what she does. She is encouraging struggling Latter-day Saints to go inactive (describing it with the far more palatable "take a sabbatical").

==So encouraging other Latter-day Saints to go inactive is okay as long as she doesn't say this during Sunday School?

Offering it as an option to those contemplating leaving the church is absolutely okay in my opinion.

==You make it sound like she is encouraging others to remain active in the Church. She's not.

Except the whole point of the post was how a break helped her return with vigor to serve in the Church (which she has done for the last 14 years).

Here's an honest question: Do you think President Monson would agree or disagree with her recommendation for other Latter-day Saints to ditch activity in the Church for a year?

Consider the following from Elder Oaks:

The explanation I gave that man [who asked about killing during war time] is the same explanation I give to you if you feel you are an exception to what I have said. As a General Authority, I have the responsibility to preach general principles. When I do, I don’t try to define all the exceptions. There are exceptions to some rules. For example, we believe the commandment is not violated by killing pursuant to a lawful order in an armed conflict. But don’t ask me to give an opinion on your exception. I only teach the general rules. Whether an exception applies to you is your responsibility. You must work that out individually between you and the Lord.

==And for many, many others, long-term inactivity in the Church becomes a permanent thing. I believe that's why we have commandments about keeping the Sabbath day holy (particularly D&C 59:9).

" And that thou mayest more fully keep thyself unspotted from the world, thou shalt go to the house of prayer and offer up thy sacraments upon my holy day;"

I think your reading might be anachronistic. She did go up to a house of prayer every Sunday and offered up her sacraments. The weekly taking of "The Sacrament" did not become a thing among Mormons until the 1850's if IIRC.

They have also counseled us to keep the Sabbath day, to attend Church regularly, to attend the temple regularly, to accept and magnify callings, and to do all these things in such a way as to not exhaust ourselves. But the article in the OP represents a voice that recommends an alternative course of action, namely, to disobey D&C 59:9 for an extended period of time, to stop serving in callings, to stop attending the temple, and so on.

That is unsound, feckless advice, particularly when given by a Latter-day Saint to other Latter-day Saints.

Several people on this board have confessed to turning down callings, sitting in the hall during sacrament meetings, cutting down on church activities for various reasons. When will you be taking them to task? I can link to posts if you would like.

==Oh, come on. Are you seriously going to suggest that prophets and apostles would endorse her advocacy of Latter-day Saints deliberately choosing to go inactive?

==As I said previously: There are all sorts of ways we can and should cope with "Weary in Well Doing" syndrome. Utter abandonment of sacred duties and covenants is not one of them.

Your characterization of her obedience and righteousness is uncharitable. Last I checked her covenants and obligations were to God not you. According to Sister Riess, she served God the best way she could and for her that happened to include taking a break from callings and LDS Sunday Services. All we are asked to do is our best.

==I've criticized her counsel to other Latter-day Saints. I haven't accused her of doing anything she hasn't openly admitted in a blog post published to the world. And I don't think I've said anything about her "lying" or being "dumb."

You repeatedly called her a covenant breaker. What particular covenant did she admit to breaking again?

==A Latter-day Saint is taking it upon herself to encourage other Latter-day Saints to disobey the commandments of God. I find that deeply troubling.

She spoke of her experience and what worked for her. She offered it as an option that might work for certain people in certain circumstances. Your characterization of what she said is uncharitable.

[Guest]

President Kimball once cautioned against just saying away too many Sunday in a row, that it can put your testimony in jeapordy. Multiply this for 52 Sunday's the fallout could be eternal. Sounds like what the Amish do with their teenagers...loosing many in the process. I wonder does that year off also mean a year of from commandments and morality?

[jkwilliams]

The explanation I gave that man [who asked about killing during war time] is the same explanation I give to you if you feel you are an exception to what I have said. As a General Authority, I have the responsibility to preach general principles. When I do, I don’t try to define all the exceptions. There are exceptions to some rules. For example, we believe the commandment is not violated by killing pursuant to a lawful order in an armed conflict. But don’t ask me to give an opinion on your exception. I only teach the general rules. Whether an exception applies to you is your responsibility. You must work that out individually between you and the Lord.

 

 

This is exactly what I meant when I was talking about receiving personal revelation.

Edited August 19, 2015 by jkwilliams

[Bobbieaware]

If I'm what passes for an anti-Mormon, the church has nothing to worry about.

The Church in general may have little to worry about, but from the point of view of active, believing members I think you'll have to admit even congenial critics fall in somewhere on the continuum of counterproductive influences, especially within their own personal spheres of influence. If all men and women are going to have to give account for whatever they have done -- or not done -- that has had a negative.effect on the building of the kingdom of God, it might be best to hold one's piece just in case it turns out the Church actually is true. Joking or not, light hearted or not, tongue in cheek or not, a wavering, troubled soul might very well take what's written quite seriously -- seriously enough to tip the balance.

[KevinG]

I've had trouble restarting my attendance since missing quite a bit over the last couple years due to surgery.  The last 6 months I have not had an excuse yet my attendance is spotty at best.  I have a testimony of the Gospel, not so much my ward.  

 

However the best thing that someone has said to me the whole time I've been conspicuously absent is "we miss you and your ideas in Quorum meetings".  No guilt trip, no duty speech, simply "we miss you".  

 

I'm working on repenting.

[ttribe]

The Church in general may have little to worry about, but from the point of view of active, believing members I think you'll have to admit even congenial critics fall in somewhere on the continuum of counterproductive influences, especially within their own personal spheres of influence. If all men and women are going to have to give account for whatever they have done -- or not done -- that has had a negative.effect on the building of the kingdom of God, it might be best to hold one's piece just in case it turns out the Church actually is true. Joking or not, light hearted or not, tongue in cheek or not, a wavering, troubled soul might very well take what's written quite seriously -- seriously enough to tip the balance.

 

And some of those same people might very well look at your posting style as being so off-putting as to drive them in the opposite direction from which you intended.

[jkwilliams]

The Church in general may have little to worry about, but from the point of view of active, believing members I think you'll have to admit even congenial critics fall in somewhere on the continuum of counterproductive influences, especially within their own personal spheres of influence. If all men and women are going to have to give account for whatever they have done -- or not done -- that has had a negative.effect on the building of the kingdom of God, it might be best to hold one's piece just in case it turns out the Church actually is true. Joking or not, light hearted or not, tongue in cheek or not, a wavering, troubled soul might very well take what's written quite seriously -- seriously enough to tip the balance.

 

I say what I think, nothing more. And I reject the notion that saying what I think makes me a counterproductive influence. 

[mfbukowski]

Sacrament meeting -- and Church services in general -- became much more meaningful after I "took a break."  The biggest reason, I think, is because during my time away I realized that I *missed* communion and service with the Saints.  As a result, when I started attending meetings, doing my callings, and helping people move (the standard EQ service project!) I was doing it because it was something I wanted to do as an expression of my faith.  I can relate to Jana when she says that Church can become a burden.  And I would say that anyone who feels like their Church service is a chore/burden/drag -- may really benefit from some reflection.

You know maybe I never went through this because as a convert I had always wanted a role like this.

 

I had seriously considered becoming a Catholic priest as a kid, and had a strong urge to help people spiritually my whole life.  Then as an atheist I got political, but finally figured out that was not working for me- it was not fulfilling.

 

I am certain that if I had been raised Mormon I most likely would have rebelled and either left the church or gone inactive for a long period.

 

So maybe we all need a little Rumspringa after all.

[KevinG]

And some of those same people might very well look at your posting style as being so off-putting as to drive them in the opposite direction from which you intended.

 

We're working hard to push the fence sitters off into outer darkness.