Avatar4321 Posted August 16, 2015 Posted August 16, 2015 I'm speaking in sacrament next week on the topic and I don't know that it is one I have though of much. How has self reliance brought you to Christ?
Five Solas Posted August 16, 2015 Posted August 16, 2015 Okay, this is going to sound harsh--but I'm putting it out there. Self-reliance is the antithesis of the Christian Faith. Not only does the individual stand in need of & is dependent on a savior--but once saved, a believer has need of Christian community (e.g., James 5:14-16, for healing, confessing sin). Christians don't go it alone. And it could be no other way--we're image-bearers of God and God enjoys community within the Trinity of Father, Son and Holy Spirit. In my opinion, John Piper said it well, "Self-reliance and self-confidence cannot live at the foot of the cross." But if you disagree and instead want to go deep on self-reliance, suggest you leverage the example of North Korea and their ideology of "Juche." If that doesn't give your audience pause, nothing will. Start with Wikipedia (Literally, [Juche] means "subjectivity" or "agency", and in political discourse has a connotation of "self-reliance" and of "independence"). It's worked out really well for them, I'm told...;0) --Erik
Traela Posted August 16, 2015 Posted August 16, 2015 We are to be as self-reliant as possible so that we have the means to help others. There's also the matter of taking responsibility for ourselves. I would go to lds.org and look at the Principles of Self-Reliance to get some ideas.One specific possibility: our whole church is built around the idea of spiritual self-sufficiency- of gaining a testimony for ourselves and not relying on borrowed light. 2
Okrahomer Posted August 16, 2015 Posted August 16, 2015 Okay, this is going to sound harsh--but I'm putting it out there. Self-reliance is the antithesis of the Christian Faith. Not only does the individual stand in need of & is dependent on a savior--but once saved, a believer has need of Christian community (e.g., James 5:14-16, for healing, confessing sin). Christians don't go it alone. And it could be no other way--we're image-bearers of God and God enjoys community within the Trinity of Father, Son and Holy Spirit. In my opinion, John Piper said it well, "Self-reliance and self-confidence cannot live at the foot of the cross." But if you disagree and instead want to go deep on self-reliance, suggest you leverage the example of North Korea and their ideology of "Juche." If that doesn't give your audience pause, nothing will. Start with Wikipedia (Literally, [Juche] means "subjectivity" or "agency", and in political discourse has a connotation of "self-reliance" and of "independence"). It's worked out really well for them, I'm told...;0) --ErikIt seems to me that you are making two perfectly true doctrines unnecessarily incompatible. Self-Reliance (also known as Provident Living) is completely consistent with living a life built upon the "rock of our salvation." Indeed, living "providently" requires one to first acknowledge the hand of the Lord in all things and to seek and be grateful for His guidance in the everyday decisions related to temporal life. 1
Five Solas Posted August 16, 2015 Posted August 16, 2015 (edited) It seems to me that you are making two perfectly true doctrines unnecessarily incompatible. Self-Reliance (also known as Provident Living) is completely consistent with living a life built upon the "rock of our salvation." Indeed, living "providently" requires one to first acknowledge the hand of the Lord in all things and to seek and be grateful for His guidance in the everyday decisions related to temporal life.Kindly demonstrate it, Okrahomer--a passage or two from Scripture that suggest self-reliance is compatible with God-reliance. --Erik Edited August 16, 2015 by Five Solas
Calm Posted August 16, 2015 Posted August 16, 2015 (edited) Being as self-reliant (in terms of resources used for our quality of life) as possible (which also means imo using community and extended family resources appropriately) can remove a lot of fear and insecurity, thus allowing us to be more confident and comfortable as we seek Christ...especially if we recognize his hand in all things, including our 'independence'. Being less dependent on others (not including Christ) allows us to make choices without being worried about how someone else will care about those choices, we won't be as likely to give into social and family pressure but instead we will be able to refer to our own personal experience with the Spirit as our primary guide in our lives. Self reliance also is important when it comes to the Spirit. Developing our own testimony rather than relying on others. This will bring us to Christ's feet to worship and learn first and foremost. Prophets help lead us there, but in the end they are not intended or intending to substitute for our asking for and living by the Lord's voice in our lives. Edited August 17, 2015 by calmoriah 3
Five Solas Posted August 16, 2015 Posted August 16, 2015 No one is arguing against good stewardship of God's gifts ("resources used" etc.), calmoriah. The question is whether self-reliance is compatible with God-reliance, supported by Scripture. See the John Piper quote made previously. Do you have a passage, verse, anything that contradicts this? Please share if you do. --Erik
bluebell Posted August 17, 2015 Posted August 17, 2015 (edited) No one is arguing against good stewardship of God's gifts ("resources used" etc.), calmoriah. The question is whether self-reliance is compatible with God-reliance, supported by Scripture. See the John Piper quote made previously. Do you have a passage, verse, anything that contradicts this? Please share if you do. --ErikMaybe the problem is that for LDS self reliance = good stewardship of God's gifts. You seem to be trying to force others to accept a definition of self reliance that they aren't using. Edited August 17, 2015 by bluebell 4
Five Solas Posted August 17, 2015 Posted August 17, 2015 Maybe the problem is that for LDS self reliance = good stewardship of God's gifts.You seem to be trying to force others to accept a definition of self reliance that they aren't using.Let's start with a passage or verse & work from that, bluebell. We have considerably more LDS opinion than Scripture on this thread... --Erik
webbles Posted August 17, 2015 Posted August 17, 2015 Let's start with a passage or verse & work from that, bluebell. We have considerably more LDS opinion than Scripture on this thread... --ErikI consider Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob to be self-reliant. 3
bluebell Posted August 17, 2015 Posted August 17, 2015 Let's start with a passage or verse & work from that, bluebell. We have considerably more LDS opinion than Scripture on this thread...--ErikYou want passages of scripture referencing the need to be good stewards of God's gifts?
Calm Posted August 17, 2015 Posted August 17, 2015 No one is arguing against good stewardship of God's gifts ("resources used" etc.), calmoriah. The question is whether self-reliance is compatible with God-reliance, supported by Scripture. See the John Piper quote made previously. Do you have a passage, verse, anything that contradicts this? Please share if you do. --ErikResponding just to the opening post, not your challenge in my response. Not particularly interested in getting into a debate today on this.
Avatar4321 Posted August 17, 2015 Author Posted August 17, 2015 Didn't think this topic would be so controversial. I think it goes without saying that when we talk about self dependence we are still dependent on Providence to provide the increase for our labor 3
Paradox_58 Posted August 17, 2015 Posted August 17, 2015 I'm speaking in sacrament next week on the topic and I don't know that it is one I have though of much. How has self reliance brought you to Christ?I don't like debate but I guess I'm finicky about terms. For me, self-reliance brought me to Christ because it was such a miserable failure. My own best thinking and efforts were fruitless and left me pretty much suicidal. My ability to feel joyful and exercise my agency came when I accepted completely my "less than the dust" status and complete reliance on God for even my daily breath much less my food, housing, etc. Doctrine and Covenants 59:21 pretty much tells me how "self-reliant" I am. I'm pretty good at thrift, provident use of the blessings He provides, but I have learned from hard experience I'll never be self-reliant in this life. 3
filovirus Posted August 17, 2015 Posted August 17, 2015 Relying on one's own income and not relying on credit to support a lifestyle beyond one's means could be a start. This is a huge problem in our country and can never be stressed enough. 2
Okrahomer Posted August 17, 2015 Posted August 17, 2015 Kindly demonstrate it, Okrahomer--a passage or two from Scripture that suggest self-reliance is compatible with God-reliance. --ErikHi Five Solas. I've provided a few scriptural passages below which illustrate (at least to me) how self-reliance--i.e., Provident Living--is compatible with "God-Reliance." There are more and probably better examples, but perhaps these will suffice. I will say that I don't disagree with the John Piper quote you provided; however, I did not see it as a call to Christians to stop taking care of their own (and others') temporal needs. But I'm not familiar with John Piper or his teachings, so perhaps he was? If so, then I do very much disagree.Genesis 3:19In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.Genesis 41[Joseph's interpretation of Pharaoh's dream]Proverbs 6:6-8Go to the ant, thou sluggard; consider her ways, and be wise: Which having no guide, overseer, or ruler, Provideth her meat in the summer, and gathereth her food in the harvest.1 Timothy 5:8But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel.Hebrews 11:7By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith. 4
janderich Posted August 17, 2015 Posted August 17, 2015 I have also been a little disappointed in the term self-reliance. It smacks of independence from every being, including God. But I do see a truth here that needs to be learned. Paul points to it in Ephesians. After telling us the we need prophets, apostles, and teachers for the perfecting of the saints he says, "Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive" (Eph 4:13-14) We must come to the measure and the stature of Christ. The man who said, "before Abraham was I AM". Many religious people tend to lack a certain confidence and with it a certain power, which enables others to take advantage of them. In some this becomes a crutch in which they expect others to help them and they become dependent on others. In others it is simply a lack of confidence that keeps their faith from moving forward. It is this problem of dependence on other people and lack of confidence in themselves to which the term self-reliance is referring. In as much as it relates to these problems I understand the term. 1
Ahab Posted August 17, 2015 Posted August 17, 2015 (edited) Of course a man who works hard for a living and yet barely makes ends meet would do much better and have more to enjoy if he was given a better income, which would require someone(s) to give him more of an income, but if he is making/earning "enough" on his own income then he is making/earning a "sufficient" income and is what I would call self-sufficient, because he is making/earning enough on his own.But yes of course any income earned by his work in service to others is given to him by someone else or other people who are paying/giving him that income.ETA: Oh and having this attitude has brought me closer to Christ because it helps me to know that I can do enough on my own without needing more and more given to me, although I still need someone(s) to give me a sufficient income.Even so called rich people get or got their money and other goods/services from other people. Everything on this planet was put here by God. Edited August 17, 2015 by Ahab 1
Bobbieaware Posted August 17, 2015 Posted August 17, 2015 (edited) Okay, this is going to sound harsh--but I'm putting it out there. Self-reliance is the antithesis of the Christian Faith. Not only does the individual stand in need of & is dependent on a savior--but once saved, a believer has need of Christian community (e.g., James 5:14-16, for healing, confessing sin). Christians don't go it alone. And it could be no other way--we're image-bearers of God and God enjoys community within the Trinity of Father, Son and Holy Spirit. In my opinion, John Piper said it well, "Self-reliance and self-confidence cannot live at the foot of the cross."But if you disagree and instead want to go deep on self-reliance, suggest you leverage the example of North Korea and their ideology of "Juche." If that doesn't give your audience pause, nothing will. Start with Wikipedia (Literally, [Juche] means "subjectivity" or "agency", and in political discourse has a connotation of "self-reliance" and of "independence"). It's worked out really well for them, I'm told...;0)--ErikThis is a perfect example of how individuals who are strongly motivated to find fault with the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints all too often become careless and lose all sense of objectivity and fairplay as they pursue the goal of finding that fault. If the oft-used expression "self-reliance" is fairly understood within the full scope and range of LDS Church teaching, it becomes perfectly obvious that true self-reliance (the ability to successfully take care of one's own temporal and spiritual needs) cannot exist without first exercising faith in God, with the clear realization that nothing good or of lasting value can be accomplished without total reliance on the power and gifts of God (see Moroni 10:23-25). A perfect example of spiritual self reliance can be found in the parable of the wise and the foolish virgins: The wise virgings were proactively motivated to DO what was necessary to be sure their lamps (souls) were filled with oil (the Spirit); while the foolish virgins, who were slothful in taking care of their spiritual health, begged the wise virgins for something (the Spirit) they couldn't give them at the very last moment, even if they wanted to do so. Meanwhile, a perfect example of divinely-mandated temporal self-reliance is encapsulated in this simple declarative sentence from the Apostle Paul:10 For even when we were with you, this we COMMANDMED you, that if any man would not work, neither should he eat. (2 Thess 3) Edited August 17, 2015 by Bobbieaware 2
KevinG Posted August 17, 2015 Posted August 17, 2015 Self reliance as opposed to debt, dependence on government, giving up freedom for security, etc. is consistent with the Gospel. However- it might be worthwhile to underscore our dependence on God. Many of us Saints have issues with depending on the arm of the flesh, and our own power, to our determent when it comes to faith in God. A talk on what self-reliance is, and is NOT in Gospel terms would be a nice thing to hear. 2 Nephi 25: 23 For we labor diligently to write, to persuade our children, and also our brethren, to believe in Christ, and to be reconciled to God; for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do. 4
Sleeper Cell Posted August 17, 2015 Posted August 17, 2015 Okay, this is going to sound harsh--but I'm putting it out there. Self-reliance is the antithesis of the Christian Faith. Not only does the individual stand in need of & is dependent on a savior--but once saved, a believer has need of Christian community (e.g., James 5:14-16, for healing, confessing sin). Christians don't go it alone. Yeah. Its not like Mormons are particularly known for having a strong sense of community. 4
MDalby Posted August 17, 2015 Posted August 17, 2015 Can we see how critical self-reliance becomes when looked upon as the prerequisite to service, when we also know service is what Godhood is all about? Without self-reliance one cannot exercise these innate desires to serve. How can we give if there is nothing there? Food for the hungry cannot come from empty shelves. Money to assist the needy cannot come from an empty purse. Support and understanding cannot come from the emotionally starved. Teaching cannot come from the unlearned. And most important of all, spiritual guidance cannot come from the spiritually weak. There is an interdependence between those who have and those who have not. The process of giving exalts the poor and humbles the rich. In the process, both are sanctified. The poor, released from the bondage and limitations of poverty, are enabled as free men to rise to their full potential, both temporally and spiritually. The rich, by imparting of their surplus, participate in the eternal principle of giving. Once a person has been made whole or self-reliant, he reaches out to aid others, and the cycle repeats itself.(Marion G Romney, The Celestial Nature of Self-reliance, CR, Oct 1982) 2
MDalby Posted August 17, 2015 Posted August 17, 2015 (edited) When you drink of the water don’t forget the spring from which it flows(Charles D i c kens) Edited August 17, 2015 by MDalby 3
MDalby Posted August 17, 2015 Posted August 17, 2015 Someone has said that an ungrateful man is like a hog under a tree eating apples and never looking up to see where they come from. Do we look up to see where our blessings are coming from? (Ezra Taft Benson, Area Conference, 12 August 1975.) Gratitude is said to be the memory of the heart.(Joseph Fielding Smith, Gospel Doctrine, p.262 3
MDalby Posted August 17, 2015 Posted August 17, 2015 Consecration is related to but different from sacrifice. The word consecrate means to develop and “dedicate to a sacred purpose.” Sacrifice is what I will offer, surrender, yield, or give up. Consecration, on the other hand, is to fully develop and dedicate to a sacred purpose. Please listen to the following description of the principle of consecration provided by President Ezra Taft Benson: “We covenant to live the law of consecration. This law is that we consecrate our time, talents, strength, property, and money for the upbuilding of the kingdom of God on this earth and the establishment of Zion (Teachings of Ezra Taft Benson, p. 121). As we live the law of consecration, we are willing not only to offer anything and everything we possess for the sake of the gospel, but we also promise to develop and devote our best selves—our time, talents, and strength—to the building of the kingdom of God on the earth. Our pledge is: I will give me and all that I can become, and I will live for the gospel of Jesus Christ. The principle of sacrifice is a lesser law preparation for the principle of consecration. Consecration includes and encompasses sacrifice and much more. We are not only willing to offer up our possessions, but we will become the best we can be and assist however possible in building the kingdom in righteous ways. We will not only die for the gospel, but we will develop ourselves and live for the gospel. True consecration is motivated by charity and produces an increased desire to serve. The best application of the principle of consecration that I can think of, being developed and dedicated to a sacred purpose, is motherhood. Over the past 24 years I have watched my wife, a very talented, capable, and competent woman, as she has developed and dedicated herself to the holy purposes of our home. Some would say she has sacrificed or given up much to become the heart of our home and to rear and nurture our children. She has not given up anything; rather, she has been dedicated and consecrated to a holy purpose. She has developed herself and applied those skills as God has directed in the most important undertaking of a lifetime, which is the rearing and nurturing of children. (David A. Bednar, Your Whole Souls as an Offering Unto Him, Ricks College Devotional, January 5, 1999) 1
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