Designing A Church-Based Replacement For Scouting -- Thinking Outside The Box

[Buckeye]

But this is why the BSA could issue eagles to the LDS people that get the parallel award.  It would still have the BSA "brand" in the end because we would pay them for the rights.

 

The price BSA charges includes (1) dues to BSA, (2) adherence to BSA policies, (3) inspection, review and oversight by BSA, and so forth. So regardless of whether the church is willing to pay dues, if it drops BSA it is now willing to pay the other costs needed to have BSA recognize its programs.

[Buckeye]

So now, you resort to mocking.  You don't need to do that.  You can simply disagree amicably.

 

The mocking is needed to demonstrate your error. YOU CAN'T BUY AN EAGLE.

[DragonLancer]

The price BSA charges includes (1) dues to BSA, (2) adherence to BSA policies, (3) inspection, review and oversight by BSA, and so forth. So regardless of whether the church is willing to pay dues, if it drops BSA it is now willing to pay the other costs needed to have BSA recognize its programs.

 

You are right that it would require willingness on the part of the Church to pay what it would take to do it.

[DragonLancer]

The mocking is needed to demonstrate your error. YOU CAN'T BUY AN EAGLE.

 

No.  Mocking is never needed, if you claim to be a Christian, LDS person that is supposedly keeping the Love thy Neighbor commandment.

 

And I would never suggest that an eagle would be bought.  It would be the same requirements that it now takes to earn it.  So I don't see why you have to be this way about it.

[Scott Lloyd]

Gotta say, I'm not seeing much outside-the-box thinking here so far. Mainly imitation or trying to figure out some way to salvage some aspects of the relationship with BSA -- or hoping that ultimately it won't be necessary to develop something new.

 

People, this is the first opportunity we've had in over a century; let's seize it!

 

Here's a question that might prompt some thinking: What needs are there for youth in the Church that aren't being optimally met by Scouting? What could be formulated into an all-new program that might meet those needs, while at the same time, not losing anything of value from the past?

Edited August 3, 2015 by Scott Lloyd

[stemelbow]

Gotta say, I'm not seeing much outside-the-box thinking here so far. Mainly imitation or trying to figure out some way to salvage some aspects of the relationship with BSA -- or hoping that ultimately it won't be necessary to develop something new.

 

People, this is the first opportunity we've had in over a century; let's seize it!

 

Here's a question that might prompt some thinking: What needs are there for youth in the Church that aren't being optimally met by Scouting? What could be formulated into an all-new program that might meet those need, while at the same time, not losing anything of value from the past?

Youth need support, affection, activity, fun, direction, learning, food and water, and probably some other things. Let's not complicate the matter. It's pretty simple, if ya ask me.

[DragonLancer]

Gotta say, I'm not seeing much outside-the-box thinking here so far. Mainly imitation or trying to figure out some way to salvage some aspects of the relationship with BSA -- or hoping that ultimately it won't be necessary to develop something new.

 

People, this is the first opportunity we've had in over a century; let's seize it!

 

Here's a question that might prompt some thinking: What needs are there for youth in the Church that aren't being optimally met by Scouting? What could be formulated into an all-new program that might meet those need, while at the same time, not losing anything of value from the past?

 

Ok.  So you as the person that started the thread are not looking for a suggestion to preserve rank advancement in the Church that would be recognized by the BSA.  If that is the case, then the Church already has a program in place in other countries that could be modified, and so, you aren't looking preserve the value that comes from the BSA.  That is understandable, and it is an option.

 

But I think I am done on this thread since nobody was looking for the type of thing that I was suggesting anyway.  It was interesting to see the type of reactions coming from people that were ridiculing my suggestions.  It is interesting that they felt passionate enough on this subject to resort to that.

[Scott Lloyd]

Ok.  So you as the person that started the thread are not looking for a suggestion to preserve rank advancement in the Church that would be recognized by the BSA.  If that is the case, then the Church already has a program in place in other countries that could be modified, and so, you aren't looking preserve the value that comes from the BSA.  That is understandable, and it is an option.

 

What's being done by the Church in other countries? Can anybody here give us a rundown?

 

Do we really need rank advancements, awards and badges? What would be lost without them?

 

But I think I am done on this thread since nobody was looking for the type of thing that I was suggesting anyway.  It was interesting to see the type of reactions coming from people that were ridiculing my suggestions.  It is interesting that they felt passionate enough on this subject to resort to that.

 

For many years, I've had the perception that for some of our members, Scouting is almost a para-religion that, for them, stands apart from the Church but merits almost as much devotion on its own.

 

I'm afraid it's going to be a considerable source of tension for some when the Church affiliation finally ends.

Edited August 3, 2015 by Scott Lloyd

[Scott Lloyd]

Youth need support, affection, activity, fun, direction, learning, food and water, and probably some other things. Let's not complicate the matter. It's pretty simple, if ya ask me.

Well, I'm afraid many of our youth are falling away when they get into young adulthood. What could be done in a youth program that's not being done now to reduce that loss?

 

(And before anyone starts, I don't believe that confronting issues of Church history or theology is the cause of most instances of their going missing.)

Edited August 3, 2015 by Scott Lloyd

[mtomm]

The Wheat and Tares had a detailed blog post about this. VERY detailed.

 

http://www.wheatandtares.org/18481/down-at-the-ymia-alternatives-to-the-boy-scouts/

[Scott Lloyd]

The Wheat and Tares had a detailed blog post about this. VERY detailed.

 

http://www.wheatandtares.org/18481/down-at-the-ymia-alternatives-to-the-boy-scouts/

Um, check out the opening post, where I gave that very same link as a starting point for this discussion.

 

Did everybody else ignore that as well? No wonder we're not getting anywhere with this.

Edited August 3, 2015 by Scott Lloyd

[Buckeye]

Gotta say, I'm not seeing much outside-the-box thinking here so far. Mainly imitation or trying to figure out some way to salvage some aspects of the relationship with BSA -- or hoping that ultimately it won't be necessary to develop something new.

 

People, this is the first opportunity we've had in over a century; let's seize it!

 

Here's a question that might prompt some thinking: What needs are there for youth in the Church that aren't being optimally met by Scouting? What could be formulated into an all-new program that might meet those needs, while at the same time, not losing anything of value from the past?

 

It's not possible to lose nothing. The change could be a net positive, but there will still be loss. We won't replicate BSA's facilities or tradition for one thing. And there's the loss of ties to a community outside the church. For someone in the proverbial "mission field" losing BSA means my ward becomes even more insular.

 

Also, why the zeal to "seize the moment"? You haven't been that keen when others offer ideas for how to change other church programs (say if women were to be ordained), so it seems a little out of sorts to see you encouraging us to speculate as to the best program for the church. None of us have keys to make such decisions.

 

But since we're on it, I'll say this.  Some of the problems with BSA stemmed from ridged requirements for advancement. I should say that I undertand BSA's rationale for this, but still, there's heartache when boy misses eagle by 2 months or when records get lost in a move, or when someone joins the church as 14 year old and can't catch up. I imagine the church programs will offer more flexibility here.

[Buckeye]

Do we really need rank advancements, awards and badges? What would be lost without them?

 

 

There will be some form of recognition. DTG has an award, as does YW in excellence. Seminary has a graduation certificate. Kids are often motivated by goals and recognition. Adults too.

 

I'm afraid it's going to be a considerable source of tension for some when the Church affiliation finally ends.

 

Agreed. For me personally, my family will benefit as there are better run troops that are closer to our home. But both BSA and the church will be weaker without each other - at least in the short term.

 

Well, I'm afraid many of our youth are falling away when they get into young adulthood. What could be done in a youth program that's not being done now to reduce that loss?

 

(And before anyone starts, I don't believe that confronting issues of Church history or theology is the cause of most instances of their going missing.)

 

For young adults, the biggest problem is that (i) they've heard all the lessons already and (ii) they're not yet ready for marriage and so lose interest as there's nothing else for them in the church until they're ready for that (at least that's the perception).

 

Since we're thinking outside the box, maybe if the church drops its affiliation with BSA, it could start one with Habitat for Humanity. I could see a lot of youth enthusiasm for a stake goal of building a house each year.

[Scott Lloyd]

It's not possible to lose nothing. The change could be a net positive, but there will still be loss.

 

Who says there has to be?

 

 

We won't replicate BSA's facilities or tradition for one thing.

 

I'm talking about benefits of real value that cannot be achieved through other means.

 

And there's the loss of ties to a community outside the church. For someone in the proverbial "mission field" losing BSA means my ward becomes even more insular.

 

Does it have to be? Remember: outside-the-box thinking.

 

 

Also, why the zeal to "seize the moment"? You haven't been that keen when others offer ideas for how to change other church programs (say if women were to be ordained), so it seems a little out of sorts to see you encouraging us to speculate as to the best program for the church.

 

 

Seriously?

 

The Church appears to be on the verge of terminating the relationship with Scouting. I'm hard-pressed to think of anything more remote than the chance that the foundational doctrine pertaining to the priesthood will be restructured.

 

None of us have keys to make such decisions.

We can read.

 

But since we're on it, I'll say this.  Some of the problems with BSA stemmed from ridged requirements for advancement.

 

"Ridged" requirements? I'm guessing you were trying to say either rigged or rigid. From context I'm guessing you meant the latter.

 

I should say that I undertand BSA's rationale for this, but still, there's heartache when boy misses eagle by 2 months or when records get lost in a move, or when someone joins the church as 14 year old and can't catch up. I imagine the church programs will offer more flexibility here.

 

If there is a problem I have noticed, it's just the opposite: too much corner-cutting and lack of integrity in meeting requirements. I noticed it as a merit badge counselor. There had been corner-cutting before, so some expected it from me. Perhaps rigged is the more accurate adjective after all.

Edited August 3, 2015 by Scott Lloyd

[Scott Lloyd]

There will be some form of recognition. DTG has an award, as does YW in excellence. Seminary has a graduation certificate. Kids are often motivated by goals and recognition. Adults too.

 

They have their place, perhaps. But in my life, I've seen awards come and go and change form so much that I've concluded there is nothing all that sacrosanct about them.

 

Does anyone here remember the "Master M-Man" and "Golden Gleaner" awards? How about "Pursuit of Excellence."

 

 

Agreed. For me personally, my family will benefit as there are better run troops that are closer to our home. But both BSA and the church will be weaker without each other - at least in the short term.

 

The fact that you would be so anxious to run out and find another troop as opposed to trying what the Church has to offer to replace BSA, and that you are convinced the Church will be "weaker" without BSA,  tells me that you are perhaps one who is inordinately attached to it.

 

For young adults, the biggest problem is that (i) they've heard all the lessons already and (ii) they're not yet ready for marriage and so lose interest as there's nothing else for them in the church until they're ready for that (at least that's the perception).

 

So, we may shortly have an opportunity with a clean slate to devise a means to deal with that. I'm calling for ideas.

 

I think, given time, lowering the age of eligibility for missionary service may prove to have some benefit toward solving the problem: Little or no opportunity to languish and drift before getting immersed in full-time service to the Lord and to mankind and having associated spiritual experiences. We'll see.

 

 

Since we're thinking outside the box, maybe if the church drops its affiliation with BSA, it could start one with Habitat for Humanity. I could see a lot of youth enthusiasm for a stake goal of building a house each year.

 

I won't naysay it. But anything would have to be evaluated in terms of its propensity to meet certain goals and objectives. Particularly if it's something devised outside of the Church's control. This recent experience with BSA perhaps should make us wary about embracing something on the outside to the extent that the Church embraced Scouting.

Edited August 4, 2015 by Scott Lloyd

[ALarson]

I don't believe that the scout program can be replaced and I wonder if it even needs to be if the church dissociates from the BSA.  Nothing the church comes up with will ever compete with or gain the respect that the BSA has in the world and no award the church gives will ever be as respected or as beneficial to a young man as the Eagle Scout Award is (on resumes, college applications, etc.) outside of the church.

 

But that doesn't mean I think the church has to stay with the scouting program or that it will.  I guess time will tell.

 

Why not just have a YM's program that is similar to the YW's program?  Why not just do activities on weeknights where they meet to learn skills, learn about different careers, have a boy's camp program similar to the girl's camp program each summer?  A program where they learn camping skills and prepare for their camp throughout the year like the girls do?  It's good enough for the girls, why not the boys too?

 

Does the scout program even need to be replaced?

 

I do like the idea of there being more service oriented activities and that any new program includes the young women too.

Edited August 4, 2015 by ALarson

[strappinglad]

I am reasonably sure that nothing will change re the Church and BSA until President Monson has left this mortal coil. As for the financial end, the savings would go toward either renting Scout facilities or buying property to create facilities in regions.

[cinepro]

I am reasonably sure that nothing will change re the Church and BSA until President Monson has left this mortal coil. As for the financial end, the savings would go toward either renting Scout facilities or buying property to create facilities in regions.

 

I was thinking this might be what does him in. 

[MorningStar]

Gotta say, I'm not seeing much outside-the-box thinking here so far. Mainly imitation or trying to figure out some way to salvage some aspects of the relationship with BSA -- or hoping that ultimately it won't be necessary to develop something new.

 

People, this is the first opportunity we've had in over a century; let's seize it!

 

Here's a question that might prompt some thinking: What needs are there for youth in the Church that aren't being optimally met by Scouting? What could be formulated into an all-new program that might meet those needs, while at the same time, not losing anything of value from the past?

I just keep thinking that the kids really need to be prepared for the Second Coming - both spiritually and temporally.  Let me think more about this.

[Scott Lloyd]

I just keep thinking that the kids really need to be prepared for the Second Coming - both spiritually and temporally.  Let me think more about this.

I agree with this.

 

And your last post on the thread was one of the few that I have given a rep point to.

[Scott Lloyd]

I just keep thinking that the kids really need to be prepared for the Second Coming - both spiritually and temporally.  Let me think more about this.

I've been thinking some more about this.

 

What you say goes beyond merely building character -- although that is certainly part of it.

 

Somehow, we have to find a way to endow our youth -- girls and boys -- with spiritual experiences that build testimonies, and to do it well before they have reached adulthood.

 

In the first BSA thread of a couple of weeks ago, the one that got closed, I floated the idea of building a youth program from the concept of the handcart treks that have become so popular in recent years.

 

I acknowledged that there would be some challenges that would have to be worked through. But last week, the youth in our stake had their trek at Martin's Cove. Yesterday, our fast-and-testimony meeting was replete with spontaneous testimonies expressed by youth who had been on the trek. Many were tearful. All seemed heartfelt.

 

One young man in particular, whom I am very close to and whom I love very much was the first to arise to bear his testimony after the bishopric member was finished and turned the time over to the congregation. It was the first time I have ever seen him do that, in public or in private. He became emotional; that took me by surprise, and I think it did him as well. It is the first time I've seen that happen to him. Before yesterday, I would have said it is wholly unlike him.

 

This is not the first time I've seen a meeting like that after a youth trek experience. It happens with great regularity, enough so that it has become predictable, yet miraculous each time. I've never seen that sort of thing happen after a Scout summer camp or a Young Women camp or a sports tournament or a youth conference.

 

Where am I going with this? There is something about those youth treks that seems to be working as it pertains to giving our youth the spiritual experiences they need to do as you say, prepare them for the Second Coming. If we could find some way to enlarge upon that for whatever it is that replaces the Scouting program as the activity arm of the Church -- and to provide it for girls as well as boys -- I have to think we would be on the right track.

Edited August 4, 2015 by Scott Lloyd

[Stone holm]

There were several programs which were proposed about the time that BSA was starting, so there are plenty of various models to chose from. Plus, those offended by the failure to accept the original model formed a Baden Powell Association which dropped the discrimination altogether and made it co educational. Plus many States have youth conservation programs. But it is going to be tough to replicate the prestige that Scouts had before it became a cultural battlefield.

[Mormonmaniac]

The church will move in the direction of making the DTG better. To save costs, there will be no uniforms,badges,offices, etc. In doing so, they will have greater capacity and funds to do camps and events that are better for our youth with the emphasis on family, scriptures, spirituality, and physical and mental strength. I also see the strong need for the entire young men's groups to work together more often as one body.

Many elements will remain such as the physical elements and camping, cooking, knot tying, first aid, etc. But gone will be the endless line of merit badges and rank advancements. Duty to God, community, and nation elements will remain. More emphasis will be placed on stewardship, self reliance, and spirituality.

[mnn727]

Do you really think the Church doesn't already have a plan ready to go? Breaking the connection with BSA has been talked about for years.

[Traela]

I would like to see a program for both YW and YM (and extend it down to the senior Primary) that heavily emphasizes self-reliance. Spiritual, education, financial, etc. Every activity would either be service oriented, or geared toward creating self-sufficient adults.