Interesting Oped In The Trib - Progressive Mormonism

[JAHS]

Having walked a "middle way" (give it any name you like) for several years, I can promise you there's nothing luke-warm about it at all. People in that kind of situation often study longer and wrestle more deeply than they ever did when more orthodox.

I put far more time and effort into my Gospel Principles lessons last year than I used to when teaching it several years earlier when I was more orthodox and more easily able to "wing it"

I don't doubt all the work and study you put into the gospel. What I consider members who are "luke-warm" are those that don't believe in all the doctrines and direction that have been revealed by God to the prophets.  

 

President Hinckley said:

I want to give you my testimony that although I have sat in literally thousands of meetings where Church policies and programs have been discussed, I have never been in one where the guidance of the Lord was not sought nor where there was any desire on the part of anyone present to advocate or do anything which would be injurious or coercive to anyone.

 

The book of Revelation declares:

 

"I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.

"So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth" (Revelation 3:15–16).

 

I make you a promise, my dear brethren, that while I am serving in my present responsibility I will never consent to nor advocate any policy, any program, any doctrine that will be otherwise than beneficial to the membership of this, the Lord's Church.

 

This is His work. He established it. He has revealed its doctrine. He has outlined its practices. He created its government. It is His work and His kingdom, and He has said, "They who are not for me are against me" (2 Nephi 10:16).  (Conf April 5, 2003)

 

I believe what he says. I am not saying that those who consider themselves "middle-way" don't have a place in the church or in heaven, so long as they don't try to convince others that their middle-way situation is the correct one to have  Perhaps they just need more time to develop their testimonies of the entire gospel and doctrines of the church and should not give up on that.

Edited July 20, 2015 by JAHS

[Gray]

http://www.sltrib.com/opinion/2735147-155/op-ed-what-do-progressive-mormons-want

 

So according to this article progressives are less likely to accept:

(1) obedience to authority above personal inspiration

(2) the LDS Church's unique restoration claims

(3) literal interpretations of scripture

(4) strict traditional observances (i.e. Sabbath observance, modesty, tattoos, Word of Wisdom, etc.)

(5) the unquestioned authority of the leaders of the LDS Church.

 

and Progressives want the Church to:

1. Increase gender equality

2. Apologize for the racist past and mistreatment of LGBT members

3. Accept married gay couples at all levels

4. Permit members to openly question the authority, teachings and decisions of LDS Church leadership

5. Provide financial transparency in the use of tithes

6. Address the mistakes of polygamy and de-canonize Doctrine & Covenants 132

7. Teach the truth and troubling facts of church history (specifically surrounding Joseph Smith)

8. Speak openly of Heavenly Mother

9. Use tithes and offerings more to help the poor and needy and less on capital projects (temples, churches, commercial buildings, etc.)

10. Stop excommunicating people for openly questioning or expressing doubts

 

So while I am very clearly NOT a progressive, I have two questions for the board:

1. Do you consider this article accurate - which points are and which points are not?

2. Do you consider these ideas and ideals to be in keeping with the restored gospel and scripture and if not, what is the source of such ideas and ideals?

 

There are a few that I can agree with, and quite a few that I vehemently disagree with.  So, discuss!

 

Since I have the phrase "Progressive Mormon" right above my avatar, I'll answer.

 

Progressive Mormonism isn't like a list of set beliefs. It's more of a general approach. Some progressive Mormons are quite orthodox in most respects - others are very unorthodox.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberal_Christianity

 

I will say that I have several points in common with your lists. I think learning to make good moral judgements is way more important than obedience. I don't think there is only one "correct" path. I'm not a literalist. I don't question leaders' right to govern the church, but I also reserve the right to disagree with their interpretations. I do keep the Sabbath and the WoW, however.

 

I would definitely like to see full equality in the church for women. I'd like to see us not be so quick to excommunicate gay couples or non-believers. I think we'd be better served by more patience and more tolerance. 

 

I'm less concerned with matters of church history. More transparency is always good, and that seems to be the direction things are already going.

Edited July 20, 2015 by Gray

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

I wish we could teach Mormons what they had but they are stuck using the same old sectarian vocabulary which drives people away from the church instead of making them understand it.

 

We have the restored gospel but we still use all the same terminology as the sectarians and want to prove we are just like them.   Go figure.

You are of coarse correct. I think the best term would be Sectarian Mormon.

 

The issue is that progressive was hi jacked in the early part of the 20th century and now means something much more and different than progress or proceeds towards progress.  It is to give the illusion that people that want things like this are forward thinking and enlightened. Oh well.

[HappyJackWagon]

You are of coarse correct. I think the best term would be Sectarian Mormon.

 

The issue is that progressive was hi jacked in the early part of the 20th century and now means something much more and different than progress or proceeds towards progress.  It is to give the illusion that people that want things like this are forward thinking and enlightened. Oh well.

"Progressive" is totally determined on an individual's perspective. We define progress differently.

[thesometimesaint]

Dictionaries are wonderful things.

SEE Progressive

adjective

1. favoring or advocating progress, change, improvement, or reform, as opposed to wishing to maintain things as they are, especially in political matters.

[HappyJackWagon]

Dictionaries are wonderful things.

SEE Progressive

adjective

1. favoring or advocating progress, change, improvement, or reform, as opposed to wishing to maintain things as they are, especially in political matters.

Yes- and progress is a matter of perspective.

[Scott Lloyd]

Some other names that have been applied to people with these attitudes:

- Middle way Mormons

- Liberal Mormons

- Mormons in name only

- Cafeteria Mormons

Obviously some of these are self-adopted descriptions and others are labels assigned by others.

There is an ironic double meaning that could be applied to the acronym NOM

 

It is usually intended to designate "new-order Mormons," but it could also mean "name-only Mormons."

[ttribe]

[sigh] Seems like just another application of boundary maintenance and arbitrary labeling.

[mormonnewb]

[sigh] Seems like just another application of boundary maintenance and arbitrary labeling.

It is amazing how those who have given over the power to think in their own lives have all kinds of ideas about how others should practice their faith.

[Scott Lloyd]

[sigh] Seems like just another application of boundary maintenance and arbitrary labeling.

What are you referring to?

[KevinG]

Truth in advertising might lead me to call them.

 

Protestants with a fondness for resorationist literature.  

[Gray]

There is an ironic double meaning that could be applied to the acronym NOM

 

It is usually intended to designate "new-order Mormons," but it could also mean "name-only Mormons."

 

New Order Mormon is a hilarious term. It either brings to mind 80's brit pop or conspiracy theories regarding the Illuminati. I'm not sure how the term came to signify what it does. 

[ttribe]

What are you referring to?

The labeling of "types" of Mormons. I don't like "TBM" or "Cafeteria Mormons" or "Progressive Mormons" or "Liberal Mormons", etc. Why? Because the labels always involve reducing the discussion to "key features" of those labels; key features that rarely apply in their entirety to the people to whom the labels are given. In short, most members could be members of none, or all, of those labelled groups depending on the argument. They become meaningless. Furthermore, many use such labels as a means for identifying who is on which "team" for whatever polemic project they are undertaking at the moment.

Edited July 20, 2015 by ttribe

[KevinG]

New Order Mormon is a hilarious term. It either brings to mind 80's brit pop or conspiracy theories regarding the Illuminati. I'm not sure how the term came to signify what it does. 

 

Now Order Mormons.  I thought that was a boy band started by the Osmond Brother's.

[Scott Lloyd]

New Order Mormon is a hilarious term. It either brings to mind 80's brit pop or conspiracy theories regarding the Illuminati. I'm not sure how the term came to signify what it does. 

Perhaps you could ask those who apply it to themselves. Here's a likely place for inquiry.

[rockpond]

http://www.sltrib.com/opinion/2735147-155/op-ed-what-do-progressive-mormons-want

 

So according to this article progressives are less likely to accept:

(1) obedience to authority above personal inspiration

(2) the LDS Church's unique restoration claims

(3) literal interpretations of scripture

(4) strict traditional observances (i.e. Sabbath observance, modesty, tattoos, Word of Wisdom, etc.)

(5) the unquestioned authority of the leaders of the LDS Church.

 

and Progressives want the Church to:

1. Increase gender equality

2. Apologize for the racist past and mistreatment of LGBT members

3. Accept married gay couples at all levels

4. Permit members to openly question the authority, teachings and decisions of LDS Church leadership

5. Provide financial transparency in the use of tithes

6. Address the mistakes of polygamy and de-canonize Doctrine & Covenants 132

7. Teach the truth and troubling facts of church history (specifically surrounding Joseph Smith)

8. Speak openly of Heavenly Mother

9. Use tithes and offerings more to help the poor and needy and less on capital projects (temples, churches, commercial buildings, etc.)

10. Stop excommunicating people for openly questioning or expressing doubts

 

So while I am very clearly NOT a progressive, I have two questions for the board:

1. Do you consider this article accurate - which points are and which points are not?

2. Do you consider these ideas and ideals to be in keeping with the restored gospel and scripture and if not, what is the source of such ideas and ideals?

 

There are a few that I can agree with, and quite a few that I vehemently disagree with.  So, discuss!

 

I haven't read the entire thread but I read the op-ed yesterday.

 

I'm not a fan of the labeling of people.  I think that there are a majority of current church members who would be "less likely to accept" at least one of the first list.  And, I think that there are a majority of current church members who would like the Church to change one or more of the ten items on the second list.  (I'm in favor of at least half of the changes on her list.)

 

To the two questions from the OP:

 

1.  I consider her op-ed to be an accurate representation of what's being said out there in social media and the interwebs about and by Mormons.

 

2.  Yes.

[toon]

A response I gave in the comments section:

 

"In other words you want the Mormon Church to become more secular, like many other Christian churches have done, pandering to the wants of the people rather than what God wants. If everythng on your list was followed you would lose a lot more members than you would gain. Even if your tens of thousands number was true it doesn't compare to the other millions who are not "progressive"."

 

If the Church's truth claims are true, including its current position and statements on its hierarchical authority, then very few of those things on the list could happen absent revelation.  What does it say about the testimony of these hypothetical members, that they would leave if revelation were to guide the Church in a "progressive" direction?

[KevinG]

If the Church's truth claims are true, including its current position and statements on its hierarchical authority, then very few of those things on the list could happen absent revelation.  What does it say about the testimony of these hypothetical members, that they would leave if revelation were to guide the Church in a "progressive" direction?

 

That apostasy is easy and hypotheticals almost always make us fools.

 

When we endeavor to make the church in our own image we are at huge risk of putting ourselves in opposition to God.  Holding to the iron rod (scriptures, personal revelation, modern prophecy) we can lesson the risk of wandering into the fog.  But if we simply run along with the program and don't hold fast our fate may very well be with those lost in the fog.

Edited July 20, 2015 by KevinG

[Scott Lloyd]

http://www.sltrib.com/opinion/2735147-155/op-ed-what-do-progressive-mormons-want

 

So according to this article progressives are less likely to accept:

(1) obedience to authority above personal inspiration

(2) the LDS Church's unique restoration claims

(3) literal interpretations of scripture

(4) strict traditional observances (i.e. Sabbath observance, modesty, tattoos, Word of Wisdom, etc.)

(5) the unquestioned authority of the leaders of the LDS Church.

 

and Progressives want the Church to:

1. Increase gender equality

2. Apologize for the racist past and mistreatment of LGBT members

3. Accept married gay couples at all levels

4. Permit members to openly question the authority, teachings and decisions of LDS Church leadership

5. Provide financial transparency in the use of tithes

6. Address the mistakes of polygamy and de-canonize Doctrine & Covenants 132

7. Teach the truth and troubling facts of church history (specifically surrounding Joseph Smith)

8. Speak openly of Heavenly Mother

9. Use tithes and offerings more to help the poor and needy and less on capital projects (temples, churches, commercial buildings, etc.)

10. Stop excommunicating people for openly questioning or expressing doubts

 

So while I am very clearly NOT a progressive, I have two questions for the board:

1. Do you consider this article accurate - which points are and which points are not?

2. Do you consider these ideas and ideals to be in keeping with the restored gospel and scripture and if not, what is the source of such ideas and ideals?

 

There are a few that I can agree with, and quite a few that I vehemently disagree with.  So, discuss!

What is meant by #3 on the first list, "literal interpretations of scripture"? My understanding is that the Church itself does not hold that each and ever scriptural passage is to be taken literally.

 

So it is meaningless for one to self-identify as a progressive Mormon because he is "less likely to accept literal interpretation of scripture." One would have to identify specific passages of scripture that are in question.

Edited July 20, 2015 by Scott Lloyd

[Gray]

That apostasy is easy and hypotheticals almost always make us fools.

 

When we endeavor to make the church in our own image we are at huge risk of putting ourselves in opposition to God.  Holding to the iron rod (scriptures, personal revelation, modern prophecy) we can lesson the risk of wandering into the fog.  But if we simply run along with the program and don't hold fast our fate may very well be with those lost in the fog.

 

Even worse, when we suppose that any church is in the image of God. The old sin of idolatry popping up again. 

[toon]

New Order Mormon is a hilarious term. It either brings to mind 80's brit pop or conspiracy theories regarding the Illuminati. I'm not sure how the term came to signify what it does. 

 

Anyone remember the Provo dance club "Plastique" from the mid to late 80s?  Maybe the New Order Mormons are the former BYU students that used to hang out there.

[KevinG]

Even worse, when we suppose that any church is in the image of God. The old sin of idolatry popping up again. 

 

Agreed.  Substituting the church for God is a mistake, an easy one to make for flawed mortals, but one that can cause us to sell our birthright for a mess of pottage.  That is not a critique of the church(es) but an acknowledgment of the tendency to mistake the vehicle for the destination.

Edited July 20, 2015 by KevinG

[HappyJackWagon]

Anyone remember the Provo dance club "Plastique" from the mid to late 80s?  Maybe the New Order Mormons are the former BYU students that used to hang out there.

You guys are funny.....

 

Or maybe New Order Mormon is just a name of a forum like MDDB.

Edited July 20, 2015 by HappyJackWagon

[Calm]

those who have given over the power to think in their own lives.....

And that swipe drops your credibilty with me to almost zero.

[Scott Lloyd]

You guys are funny.....

 

Or maybe New Order Mormon is just a name of a forum like MDDB.

It's more than that, according to this introduction.