Why Is There Something Rather Than Nothing?

[rodheadlee]

That you recommend that booklet, unfortunately, inclines me to ad hominem dismiss other opinions. I will try not to do that, but, wow, seriously?

Hey no -problem I'm just a carpenter. I'm easily taken in by shiny trinkets.

Edited June 8, 2015 by rodheadlee

[rodheadlee]

The evidence for the Big Bang is strong, it is called the cosmic microwave background. 

 

 

 

It is challenging the singularity theory, not the Big Bang theory 

 

 

 

Too early to conclude anything, new theories require years of scientific scrutiny. 

Yeah science is real slow, I'll be dead by the time they actually figure something out. I was really taken in on July 20th, 1969 thinking we were going somewhere. Really, all we have learned is how to more efficiently kill people, we're still dependent on fossil fuels. We're still no nearer to the stars. Scrutinize away. 

[Stargazer]

It would be pretty boring if there was nothing.

 

While that does sound amusing, if there were nothing there would be no-one to be bored.

[Stargazer]

Why is there something rather than nothing?  Good question.  But what "something" do you mean, anyway?

 

The universe that we can observe is a huge bunch of something, which seems to have come into existence 13.7 billion years ago, emerging or originating from a point, and before it emerged there was nothing, apparently not even space.  Presumably there is a wave front of space radiating outwards from that point of origin, now having a radius of 13.7 billion light-years or more, and beyond it lies nothing.  I bet if I tried to tell Stephen Hawking what I just wrote, he'd just laugh. 

 

It appears that there is something.  Why it's there is not explicable under any circumstances, except for saying "Because God made it so." 

[Stargazer]

Yeah science is real slow, I'll be dead by the time they actually figure something out. I was really taken in on July 20th, 1969 thinking we were going somewhere. Really, all we have learned is how to more efficiently kill people, we're still dependent on fossil fuels. We're still no nearer to the stars. Scrutinize away. 

 

Yeah, I remember that, too.  We should have had a lunar colony with ten thousand residents by now.  And we should have landed our first martian colony a couple of months ago.

 

Nixon was a dream killer.

[TheSkepticChristian]

Yeah, I remember that, too.  We should have had a lunar colony with ten thousand residents by now.  And we should have landed our first martian colony a couple of months ago.

 

Can you quote serious physicists that were saying that? The reason scientific progress is slow is because our country is not investing enough in scientific research. SETI does not have enough money for advance technology to look for ET. 

 

 

Yeah science is real slow, I'll be dead by the time they actually figure something out. I was really taken in on July 20th, 1969 thinking we were going somewhere. Really, all we have learned is how to more efficiently kill people, we're still dependent on fossil fuels. We're still no nearer to the stars. Scrutinize away. 

 

Scientists have made a lot of progress in some areas, but many people are simply not interested in science. 

Edited June 8, 2015 by TheSkepticChristian

[TheSkepticChristian]

Creatio Ex Nihilo requires a self-existent God.

Mormonism has self-existent matter and intelligence.

Atheism (a la Hawking) requires self-existent laws/principles (though this is rarely confessed).

 

Creatio Ex Nihilo requires a God that cannot think because the Trinity God is outside time. A being that is thinking needs time to think, so the Trinity God cannot think or move because he is outside space and time. Creatio Ex Nihilo is simply impossible 

 

Edited June 8, 2015 by TheSkepticChristian

[Stargazer]

 

Stargazer: Yeah, I remember that, too. We should have had a lunar colony with ten thousand residents by now. And we should have landed our first martian colony a couple of months ago.

Can you quote serious physicists that were saying that? The reason scientific progress is slow is because our country is not investing enough in scientific research. SETI does not have enough money for advance technology to look for ET.

 

 

What?  You're asking for a CFR on my personal opinion and belief?  Fine, I can provide it!  Yes, that is what I believe: that the United States should have continued to fund space flight, and if they had done so, then there would have been a colony on the Moon by now, and there could have been 10,000 persons in that colony.  And, having continued to provide funding for space exploration, we would have already had a manned expedition to Mars.

 

What is SETI?  Nothing more nor less than a boondoggle.  Aside from the so-called WOW! signal, which never reoccurred, all effort and funding handed out for SETI has been a complete waste.  We NEED to be on the Moon.  We NEED to be headed to Mars.  We NEED to be developing routine interplanetary space travel.  Even if an extraterrestrial signal could be confirmed, all it would do is fuel speculation.  There is too much lag time for a meaningful conversation with ET.  Unless ET is living on a planet in the Alpha Centauri system.  But we've been listening to that system only 4.2 light years away, and haven't heard a squeak yet.  Either because there are no inhabited planets there, or no inhabitants capable of transmitting.

 

When President Nixon was busy grandstanding, congratulating Neil Armstrong for his achievement in 1969, his administration was already in the throes of planning for the drawdown of funding for space exploration.  THAT is what I was complaining about.  We had the technology and the infrastructure at that time, but we let it go. 

 

 

[Maedros]

I am not sure if we are the dominant species. There is a lot going on we are not privy to.

I accept the Big Bang as plausible but I remain unsure that it is the last word on how the universe came into being.

Perhaps you're right...there are cherubims and the nephilim and giants, things we know nothing about here on this planet so I can only imagine what else is out there - however I was thinking that since we are children of God and we are the same species as him and he exists in eternal burnings then wouldn't we share in his dominance over this universe? (just a thought) I accept that there is a lot I don't know and the idea that there are other beings out there is very plausible to me - but bugs and insect-like creatures is too far fetched for me - the DC universe makes more sense.

[rodheadlee]

What do you mean by the DC universe?

[Gray]

What do you mean by the DC universe?

 

I assume he means DC Comics. 

[thesometimesaint]

Creatio Ex Nihilo requires a God that cannot think because the Trinity God is outside time. A being that is thinking needs time to think, so the Trinity God cannot think or move because he is outside space and time. Creatio Ex Nihilo is simply impossible 

 

 

It is really not a good idea for anyone, including Dr. Hawking, to speak authoritatively far outside his field of expertise.

Edited June 8, 2015 by thesometimesaint

[mfbukowski]

I assume he means DC Comics.

Us old guys don't get this stuff. Its odd to us that comic books present a consistent model of the universe. Go figure.

[Gray]

Us old guys don't get this stuff. Its odd to us that comic books present a consistent model of the universe. Go figure.

 

I don't follow them that closely, but as I understand it DC has had to create many alternate universes to account for the various/conflicting story lines with the canon. 

[mfbukowski]

Doncha love theology?

[TheSkepticChristian]

It is really not a good idea for anyone, including Dr. Hawking, to speak authoritatively far outside his field of expertise.

 

it is true the question about God is in the fields of theology and philosophy, but logic tells us that a being needs time to think, so God cannot be outside time. 

 

  Aside from the so-called WOW! signal, which never reoccurred, all effort and funding handed out for SETI has been a complete waste. 

 

because we need bigger and better satellites, Con gress man doesn't like that.

 

 

 and haven't heard a squeak yet.  Either because there are no inhabited planets there, or no inhabitants capable of transmitting.

 

there are other possibilities too, they have solutions 

http://www.seti.org/faq

 

 

There is too much lag time for a meaningful conversation with ET.  Unless ET is living on a planet in the Alpha Centauri system. 

 

 

if scientists confirm an et signal, the world would change, many christian fundamentalist don´t believe in et. 

If we send messages, et may visit us, perhaps they make cosmic worm holes. 

[mfbukowski]

It is really not a good idea for anyone, including Dr. Hawking, to speak authoritatively far outside his field of expertise.

As I see it, the problem seems that he doesn't understand that we accept non falsifiable views of the universe every day of our lives, and accept them on faith. Every moral decision is in that category, even the idea that we "should" accept a scientific view of God.

We should not.

[TheSkepticChristian]

It is really not a good idea for anyone, including Dr. Hawking, to speak authoritatively far outside his field of expertise.

 

it is true the question about God is in the fields of theology and philosophy, but logic tells us that a being needs time to think, so God cannot be outside time. 

 

  Aside from the so-called WOW! signal, which never reoccurred, all effort and funding handed out for SETI has been a complete waste. 

 

because we need bigger and better antenna satellites, Con gress man doesn't like that.

 

 

 and haven't heard a squeak yet.  Either because there are no inhabited planets there, or no inhabitants capable of transmitting.

 

there are other possibilities too, there are solutions 

http://www.seti.org/faq

 

 

There is too much lag time for a meaningful conversation with ET.  Unless ET is living on a planet in the Alpha Centauri system. 

 

 

if scientists confirm an et signal, the world would change, many christian fundamentalist don´t believe in et. 

If we send messages, et may visit us, perhaps they make cosmic worm holes. 

Edited June 8, 2015 by TheSkepticChristian

[TheSkepticChristian]

 we're still dependent on fossil fuels

 

and that is a huge mistake, but there are many people that don´t want humanity to become a type one civilization because they think scientific research is too expensive 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kardashev_scale

Edited June 8, 2015 by TheSkepticChristian

[Maedros]

What do you mean by the DC universe?

I mean the universe created by DC Comics like superman coming from the planet Krypton with greater atmospheric density to earth and so forth. Like Kolob, I imagine Kolob as the star around which all the solar systems orbit, its like the Sun of all the galaxies under Elohim.

[JLHPROF]

I mean the universe created by DC Comics like superman coming from the planet Krypton with greater atmospheric density to earth and so forth. Like Kolob, I imagine Kolob as the star around which all the solar systems orbit, its like the Sun of all the galaxies under Elohim.

 

This is similar to what I believe.  A millennia being one day on Kolob (1000 years).  I also think that an "eternity" or "creation" as some have described it involves the rotation or orbit of the galaxy and has a duration too:

 

 

“Time is the ocean of existence, filled with elements and life for improvement by man. The presence and absence of the sun give days and nights--and the journey of the earth in her circuit, multiplies seasons and years; and years and ages make eternity; and eternity enlarges the scope of universal pleasure amid the glory of Gods. again it is revealed, that one of our Father’s days in Kolob, is 1,000 years. It is also revealed, that his year is, as we count, 365,000 years. Then a week of his years, by the count of heaven, is 2,555,000,000 years. Two billions, five hundred and fifty five millions of years! Just the length of eternity, as the martyred prophet said”  William W. Phelps, Deseret Almanac, For the Year of our Lord, 1852’ pg. 47

 

--In regarding this concept Elder McConkie wrote: “How long did Adam Abraham and Jeremiah spend in preparing to take the test of a mortal probation? What ages and eons and eternities passed away while Christ dwelt in the Eternal presence and did the work then assigned to him? How can we measure infinite duration in finite terms? To such questions we have no definite answers. Suffice it to say, the passage of time was infinite from man’s viewpoint. We have an authentic account, which can be accepted as true, that life has been going on in this system for almost 2,555,000,000 years. Presumably this system is the universe created by the Father through the instrumentality of the Son.” Mortal Messiah, 1:29

 

-- Eternity, agreeable to the records found in the catacombs of Egypt, has been going on in this system, (not this world) almost two billion five hundred and fifty five millions of years” Letter from W.W. Phelps to William Smith, dated 25 Dec. 1844, Times and Seasons 5 (1 Jan. 1845), 758

 

--“I remember once being in the office in Nauvoo where President Joseph Smith and some other brethren got to talking about the length of an eternity. One of the brethren went to work and managed to get number of years that composed an eternity. It was somewhere in the neighborhood of 250,000,000 years. President Smith said that was correct. The number of years are vast and can scarcely be counted. Eternities have a beginning and an end. One eternity commences and that has an end, and so on. Eternities upon eternities.” Lorenzo Snow papers, 16 June 1901, LDS Church Archives.

Edited June 8, 2015 by JLHPROF

[Nofear]

Creatio Ex Nihilo requires a God that cannot think because the Trinity God is outside time. A being that is thinking needs time to think, so the Trinity God cannot think or move because he is outside space and time. Creatio Ex Nihilo is simply impossible

 

I personally think creatio ex nihilo is a horrible dogma. Philosophically it ultimately makes God culpable for all things. Though many, many attempts have been philosophically made to get around that, I don't find any of them persuasive. But that's a discussion different than the thread's chain of thought.

Edited June 9, 2015 by Nofear

[thesometimesaint]

As I see it, the problem seems that he doesn't understand that we accept non falsifiable views of the universe every day of our lives, and accept them on faith. Every moral decision is in that category, even the idea that we "should" accept a scientific view of God.

We should not.

 

Science is a useful, but limited way of looking at our earth/universe.

[Meadowchik]

The question becomes moot with "is."

 

It's one of those questions that cannot be asked unless one of its mutually exclusive competing possibilities is true.

 

So rather, we just move on to "why are we here?"

[Stargazer]

it is true the question about God is in the fields of theology and philosophy, but logic tells us that a being needs time to think, so God cannot be outside time. 

 

 

because we need bigger and better satellites, Con gress man doesn't like that.

 

 

 

there are other possibilities too, they have solutions 

http://www.seti.org/faq

 

 

 

if scientists confirm an et signal, the world would change, many christian fundamentalist don´t believe in et. 

If we send messages, et may visit us, perhaps they make cosmic worm holes. 

 

Oh, you make decent points, but I don't think a genuine ET signal would make all that much difference.  Contact is one of my favorite movies, but I have to suspend a lot of belief to get in good with it.  That there would be some maniac from Panguitch, Utah, who would blow himself up to stop The Machine just left me laughing.  Ever been to Panguitch?  No?  Neither have I.  In fact, hardly anyone is from Panguitch, let alone been there.

 

I've participated in SETI@Home in the past, but I don't think its worthwhile these days.  Mainly because I think it is highly unlikely there is a radiating civilization close enough to us to enable capturing any of its signals.  Signal to noise ratios and the inverse square law just make it seem a wasted effort.

 

My personal preference is a massive infusion of funding into interplanetary exploration.  I'd gladly trade an ET signal for a lunar or a martian colony, or even for an O'Neill colony at either L4 or L5.  

 

Your entitled to your preference, of course.