mfbukowski Posted June 4, 2015 Posted June 4, 2015 It's impossible to imagine it. I've often wondered what nothing would look like. And how it all began.Indeed that's the problem. The minute we imagine "it", and name it "nothing", it becomes "something". Poof. No more nothing! So that answers the conceptual side of "nothing". To even think it makes it something. On the other hand, science cannot answer "why" questions, only "how" questions. So the question kind of disappears. It makes no sense conceptually and science ignores the answer. Time to play Parcheesi. 1
Gray Posted June 4, 2015 Author Posted June 4, 2015 At one point all matter and energy in this universe was in a very small place. Which does no violence to God using that in making it that way. SEE Right, but God didn't create it. So you can't appeal to God in answering the question "why is there something instead of nothing"
Gray Posted June 4, 2015 Author Posted June 4, 2015 Or maybe there are many universes bubbling into existences all the time. 2
mfbukowski Posted June 4, 2015 Posted June 4, 2015 Yes, science can't answer the why. But I would argue that neither can LDS theology. Which I think is probably for the best, as "why" is probably the wrong question. The "why" answer of mainstream Christianity isn't really an answer. I can see the appeal, but it breaks down in a number of areas. Well fine, then answer it for us. We are listening. You say "why" is the wrong question- then WHY did you start the thread?? You say the given answers are wrong yet don't supply your own answer. Why are we here???
JLHPROF Posted June 4, 2015 Posted June 4, 2015 Or maybe there are many universes bubbling into existences all the time. I have my own speculative beliefs on the cosmos, many of which are connected with my acceptance of the Adam-God doctrine.They are remarkably similar to those contained in "The Kolob Theorem" although not necessarily identical. I see the temples dotting the earth each representing a creation and containing Telestial/Terrestrial/Celestial kingdoms as a perfect similitude of the galaxies dotted throughout the known universe. I believe each galaxy to be a "creation" containing a "Kolob" or a Celestial God at the center with his creations, worlds without number, scattered throughout working to bring each to a Celestial level. And the council of the Gods overseeing all the galaxies/creations in this universe run by individual Gods. And then one day they move onwards to overseeing universes and whatever might be beyond... I could go on with the analogy and expand it further, but it is speculative, and I bet you get the idea.
mfbukowski Posted June 4, 2015 Posted June 4, 2015 Right, but God didn't create it. So you can't appeal to God in answering the question "why is there something instead of nothing"You are still thinking that words correspond to reality. This is circular. You are assuming there IS an answer to the words uttered and that indeed there is a question about a real state of affairs. There is not. The question itself is jibberish. Then you assume that God did or did not "create" it according to the myth of atheism or the myth of creationism or other possible myths. All of these myths are linguistic constructions- not of reality- but of some person dreaming up a story that works for them. Some work better than others. None of them "correspond" to some "reality" because there is no way to step outside of language and human experience and see things "as they are". We cannot get there. So it's all word games. So don't criticize for us playing word games- that is what every human does all day anyway. There is no "ultimate reality" to be "discovered" outside of what we are capable of discovering- because we are incapable of discovering it!! Definitely time for Parcheesi. At least we KNOW that is "only a game". So are all the others, but then there are pretentious games like this one which think they are actually getting some answers. Wrong.
Gray Posted June 4, 2015 Author Posted June 4, 2015 Well fine, then answer it for us. We are listening. You say "why" is the wrong question- then WHY did you start the thread?? You say the given answers are wrong yet don't supply your own answer. Why are we here??? I think the answer is that there is no answer. I started the thread because I was interested in different ideas about the topic. It was sparked by my listening to several debates and discussions on the subject while I was dealing with a boring commute.
mfbukowski Posted June 4, 2015 Posted June 4, 2015 I have my own speculative beliefs on the cosmos, many of which are connected with my acceptance of the Adam-God doctrine.They are remarkably similar to those contained in "The Kolob Theorem" although not necessarily identical. I see the temples dotting the earth each representing a creation and containing Telestial/Terrestrial/Celestial kingdoms as a perfect similitude of the galaxies dotted throughout the known universe. I believe each galaxy to be a "creation" containing a "Kolob" or a Celestial God at the center with his creations, worlds without number, scattered throughout working to bring each to a Celestial level. And the council of the Gods overseeing all the galaxies/creations in this universe run by individual Gods. And then one day they move onwards to overseeing universes and whatever might be beyond... I could go on with the analogy and expand it further, but it is speculative, and I bet you get the idea.All are speculative and we all make these and that is what we are supposed to do. This earth life is about creating our own worlds out of matter unorganized as a training field for what comes later. We must speculate- that is what we do! 1
Gray Posted June 4, 2015 Author Posted June 4, 2015 (edited) You are still thinking that words correspond to reality. This is circular. You are assuming there IS an answer to the words uttered and that indeed there is a question about a real state of affairs. There is not. The question itself is jibberish. Then you assume that God did or did not "create" it according to the myth of atheism or the myth of creationism or other possible myths. All of these myths are linguistic constructions- not of reality- but of some person dreaming up a story that works for them. Some work better than others. None of them "correspond" to some "reality" because there is no way to step outside of language and human experience and see things "as they are". We cannot get there. So it's all word games. So don't criticize for us playing word games- that is what every human does all day anyway. There is no "ultimate reality" to be "discovered" outside of what we are capable of discovering- because we are incapable of discovering it!! Definitely time for Parcheesi. At least we KNOW that is "only a game". So are all the others, but then there are pretentious games like this one which think they are actually getting some answers. Wrong. I have a hard time judging your tone - you seem irritated by the discussion. I'm not sure why you think I'm being critical, or that I assume that any number of myths might be true. It's just an open question that I thought would make an interesting topic of conversation. In any case, I don't think we need to deconstruct the meaning of the words we're using for the nth time. That's not the topic. Edited June 4, 2015 by Gray
Bobbieaware Posted June 4, 2015 Posted June 4, 2015 (edited) Indeed that's the problem. The minute we imagine "it", and name it "nothing", it becomes "something". Poof. No more nothing!So that answers the conceptual side of "nothing". To even think it makes it something.On the other hand, science cannot answer "why" questions, only "how" questions.So the question kind of disappears. It makes no sense conceptually and science ignores the answer.Time to play Parcheesi.For the sake of making a philosophical point, the prophet Lehi does say nonexistence is at least a theoretical possibility, but only if God ceases to exist -- and that's not going to happen. So, in reality , nonexistence is at best fantasy, and at worst lunacy. Sadly, it's the illusion of nonexistence that seems to lure the suicidal into their fatal conceit. Edited June 4, 2015 by Bobbieaware 1
mfbukowski Posted June 4, 2015 Posted June 4, 2015 (edited) For the sake of making a philosophical point, the prophet Lehi does say nonexistence is at least a theoretical possibility, but only if God ceases to exist -- and that's not going to happen. So, in reality , nonexistence is at best fantasy, and at worst lunacy. Sadly, it's the illusion of nonexistence that seems to lure the suicidal into their fatal conceit. Wow never thought of that. Great point! Like it the more I think about it. It's the illusion that "nothing" is "something" one can experience, that nothingness is "real". Very cool point!! That itself might be a logical argument for an afterlife.......? Edited June 4, 2015 by mfbukowski 1
thesometimesaint Posted June 4, 2015 Posted June 4, 2015 Right, but God didn't create it. So you can't appeal to God in answering the question "why is there something instead of nothing" Because God did it that way is the only possible answer that includes a belief in a loving God. Putting on my religious hat, to me it matters not a whit how a loving God did it as long as he did it. Putting on my science hat, science has a pretty good explanation of how he did it. The task as I see it, is to maintain a belief in a loving God and accept the science that I believe he uses.
Gray Posted June 4, 2015 Author Posted June 4, 2015 Because God did it that way is the only possible answer that includes a belief in a loving God. Putting on my religious hat, to me it matters not a whit how a loving God did it as long as he did it. Putting on my science hat, science has a pretty good explanation of how he did it. The task as I see it, is to maintain a belief in a loving God and accept the science that I believe he uses. Right, but you're talking about the organization of matter that already existed into worlds, galaxies, etc, yes?
thesometimesaint Posted June 4, 2015 Posted June 4, 2015 Right, but you're talking about the organization of matter that already existed into worlds, galaxies, etc, yes? Yep. Does it really make any difference to us if all the matter and energy in this universe was at one point in eternity in a very small area. Then God organized that energy and matter into what we see today?
Gray Posted June 4, 2015 Author Posted June 4, 2015 (edited) Yep. Does it really make any difference to us if all the matter and energy in this universe was at one point in eternity in a very small area. Then God organized that energy and matter into what we see today? Right. So from that perspective, there no answer as to "why" this matter/energy existed in the first place, yes? Or why we existed as intelligences in the infinite past. Edited June 4, 2015 by Gray
The Nehor Posted June 4, 2015 Posted June 4, 2015 Right. So from that perspective, there no answer as to "why" this matter/energy existed in the first place, yes? Or why we existed as intelligences in the infinite past.There quite possibly is an answer but I doubt we would understand said answer if someone explained it to us.
Gray Posted June 4, 2015 Author Posted June 4, 2015 There quite possibly is an answer but I doubt we would understand said answer if someone explained it to us. Could be!
thesometimesaint Posted June 4, 2015 Posted June 4, 2015 Right. So from that perspective, there no answer as to "why" this matter/energy existed in the first place, yes? Or why we existed as intelligences in the infinite past. The only possible answer with a belief in a loving God is that because God wanted it to exist for us. So he took that small area of energy and matter and organized it into what we see today. While I believe we were intelligences from before this universe existed. I have no idea as to what that matter and energy going into our makeup looked like. If I don't learn about it in this life it is one of my top questions for the next.
Gray Posted June 4, 2015 Author Posted June 4, 2015 The only possible answer with a belief in a loving God is that because God wanted it to exist for us. So he took that small area of energy and matter and organized it into what we see today. While I believe we were intelligences from before this universe existed. I have no idea as to what that matter and energy going into our makeup looked like. If I don't learn about it in this life it is one of my top questions for the next. But again, in Mormon theology God didn't create matter or energy. Matter and energy are co-eternal with God and with all of us. So God's feelings on the matter shouldn't make a difference. God didn't will existence into existence.
The Nehor Posted June 4, 2015 Posted June 4, 2015 But again, in Mormon theology God didn't create matter or energy. Matter and energy are co-eternal with God and with all of us. So God's feelings on the matter shouldn't make a difference. God didn't will existence into existence.I am really hoping everything is built from Tiamat's corpse and the Baylonians had part of the truth. Fingers crossed.
thesometimesaint Posted June 4, 2015 Posted June 4, 2015 But again, in Mormon theology God didn't create matter or energy. Matter and energy are co-eternal with God and with all of us. So God's feelings on the matter shouldn't make a difference. God didn't will existence into existence. The present scientific understanding is that all matter and energy existed in one small area of this universe(It was our universe). How long it existed in that form is at present unknown. It could be infinitely old to less than a second older than our universe. At present there is no way to know. Whatever the case I believe God took it and organized the universe as we now see it,
The Nehor Posted June 4, 2015 Posted June 4, 2015 The present scientific understanding is that all matter and energy existed in one small area of this universe(It was our universe). How long it existed in that form is at present unknown. It could be infinitely old to less than a second older than our universe. At present there is no way to know. Whatever the case I believe God took it and organized the universe as we now see it,This is actually wrong. It would not be a small part of this Universe as according to the Big Bang space itself did not exist and asking how long it existed is meaningless as time formed with the Big Bang as well. I am not sure I buy it completely but that is the current understanding. 2
strappinglad Posted June 4, 2015 Posted June 4, 2015 Sorry, everything we see and experience is being played out on the belt buckle of a policeman who is living his experience on a feather hat of a lady ... and so on. Either that or we will finally wake up in a " total recall " chair. Is it the Buddhists who believe that everything is illusion ? I forget. 1
Stroopwafel Posted June 5, 2015 Posted June 5, 2015 (edited) Coming in late to this thread *captain obvious here*. Many mainstream Christians would probably respond to this question using some version of the cosmological argument. I think ultimately, from the perspective of Mormon theology, we'd have to defer to scientific rather than theological explanations, as Mormon theology does not seem to answer this question as far as I can tell. But I'd be interested in everyone's thoughts on the topic. You're right Gray in pointing out that a mainstream Christian (and I'd say any traditional Christian for that matter) would inevitably have to appeal to the ontological argument of a necessary first mover / first cause as an explanation. Interestingly, Leibniz, who first formulated the question "why is there something at all rather than nothing?" in an essay written in 1714, answers using this very argument. It is also in this same essay that he holds we live in the best of all possible worlds, an idea famously scoffed by Voltaire in Candide.People using "God" as the answer, here as a most perfect Deus ex machina in the story of our universe, don't say much unless they define what they mean by "God". And again as you pointed out, it certainly cannot be God as understood in LDS theology. Co-eternal as he is with matter, he also was at some "created", since he wasn't always "God". So we end up asking other questions, like: what is God? How can we know? How can there be a beginning if there was absolutely nothing before? How can something "be" without having a beginning? How can something come from nothing? What is "nothing"? Aaaand it never ends, for ever and ever (or at least not for 2500 some years; the question of being is as old as Parmenides).To me, this is one of those life's questions impossible to positively answer, along with "Is there a beginning or has the universe always existed?" No matter which alternative is right, both are equally difficult to fathom for our limited selves, but at the same time equally awe-inducing. That's the beauty of it (as well as cause of frustration).As an aside, people -- most specifically westerners -- generally have a hard time with the idea of "nothingness" (our Ancient Greece heritage I guess), as is made evident by some of the posts on this thread. We find it an ambivalent, ambiguous, uncomfortable concept. Asians, on the other hand, are usually fine with this, as they've grown on another milk. I say we have something to learn by acquainting ourselves with their take on the topic. Taoism is a great place to start. Where we tend to seperate both being and non-being, easterners tend to see them as going hand-in-hand (the yin-yang symbol does a good job at illustrating the thought). Finally, for anyone proficient enough in French -- I don't know of any full English translation -- there is a great book by sinologist François Jullien called Un sage est sans idée (non-marketable translation: "A wise man is free of ideas"). Did I say it was a great book? Well, I mean it! Read it if you can. Edited June 5, 2015 by Stroopwafel 1
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