Excommunicated: Carson And Marisa Calderwood

[smac97]

I did not say that. In fact I'm pointing out that the consequences of their speech can be greater than that of the same type of speech leveled at the US government.

Again, I do not understand your point. Are you claiming that the LDS Church is constrained by the First Amendment vis-a-vis free speech?

Thanks,

-Smac

[Calm]

Yes, I recall that.  And it was all the more hokey since Kate Kelly is an attorney and knows better.  I suspect that she was not writing to priesthood leaders, and that she was instead pandering to her followers (either that or she's just a really, really bad lawyer).

 

Or maybe it is somewhat like someone who has a hammer, has had lots of success using it in the past and has grown so fond of using it that even when presented with screws feels driven to hammer away.

 

My dad would send out family letters like he was sending it to those who worked for him.  He was a very good manager.  It was the family stuff he needed to work on.

 

Kelly seemed to me to have a fundamental misunderstanding of what the Church is and how it works.

Edited May 22, 2015 by calmoriah

[Jeanne]

Wow..the Mormon Church keeps getting rid of the best in their religion.  There are many ways to grow..teaching other to think and to adjust to doctrine, culture and personal experiences that are challenging is a better way...Someday, I hope that an authority in LDS faith will say:  "If you have doubts,  that is okay..study and be who are..this community is for everyone".

[Senator]

Again, I do not understand your point. Are you claiming that the LDS Church is constrained by the First Amendment vis-a-vis free speech?

Thanks,

-Smac

No

I'm saying the LDS Church places more speech constraint on its membership, than the US government places on its citizenry.

[Jeanne]

Another one bites the dust.

 

When are members of the church going to learn, that the same freedom of speech rights that they may enjoy(and abuse) within the confines of the USA, are not extended by the CofJCofLDS.

And this...is not a good thing.  Another one who bites thew dust as you say...may be breathing for the first time.

[Scott Lloyd]

I'm not arguing against that.

In fact I'm trying to establish that. (obviously not very well)

OK, having read your post several times, I now understand what you were trying to say.

 

Apparently, I wasn't the only one who was confused.

[Scott Lloyd]

Wow..the Mormon Church keeps getting rid of the best in their religion. 

???????????????

[Calm]

While it's true that such a thing happens occasionally

I would tend to disagree.

 

I see a lot of people thinking that civil rights and other legal stuff apply to personal or work relationships of all types or at least using that argument (if they are legally free to say or do something, then there should be no protest about them saying it or doing something in any context).

Edited May 22, 2015 by calmoriah

[Scott Lloyd]

I would tend to disagree.

 

I see a lot of people thinking that civil rights and other legal stuff apply to personal or work relationships of all types.

I'm not clear on what you're disagreeing with.

[Senator]

And this...is not a good thing.  Another one who bites thew dust as you say...may be breathing for the first time.

Um......ok???

[Calm]

Wow..the Mormon Church keeps getting rid of the best in their religion.  

Define "best" please.

 

I consider certain of my neighbours to be the "best" in our faith because they are out there almost every day helping others without looking for any personal recognition or justification of their choices, they just go out and serve anyone who needs it.  Some are great scholars as well, some are not.

[Calm]

I'm not clear on what you're disagreeing with.

Apologies for that, added a bit, if that doesn't clear it up, I think we should just assume I am not going to be able to make my point as my brain is foggy at the moment.

[Calm]

And this...is not a good thing. 

 

You believe a church should be required to keep members who publicly teach (not just personally believe) the below?:

 

 "the LDS church is not God’s one true church as it states,"

"the church isn’t true,"

the Church " is just plain wrong on so many issues,"

the LDS Church " is not, and never has been, God’s one and only true church on the earth,"

it teaches "too much philosophy of men to truly be from God,"

church leaders have  "twisted, covered up, whitewashed, rationalized and straight-up lied about (the truth),"

Edited May 22, 2015 by calmoriah

[JLHPROF]

Another one bites the dust.

 

When are members of the church going to learn, that the same freedom of speech rights that they may enjoy(and abuse) within the confines of the USA, are not extended by the CofJCofLDS.

 

Nor will they be in the Kingdom of God.  God allowed Lucifer his "freedom of speech" until enough was enough then cast him out.  Unfortunately by then he'd convinced a third part of the hosts of heaven to go with him.

[JLHPROF]

Wow..the Mormon Church keeps getting rid of the best in their religion. 

 

I think that your definition of "best" might be a little off...

[smac97]

Wow..the Mormon Church keeps getting rid of the best in their religion.

I don't understand this. All of God's children have worth, but what is it about the Calderwoods that make them "the best" Mormons?

I am not sure most faithful, observant Latter-day Saints would characterize the authors of the calumnies referenced here as being representative of "the best" that Mormonism has to offer.

 

There are many ways to grow..teaching other to think and to adjust to doctrine, culture and personal experiences that are challenging is a better way...Someday, I hope that an authority in LDS faith will say:  "If you have doubts,  that is okay..study and be who are..this community is for everyone".

With respect, might I recommend that you become more informed before making statements such as this. The Brethren have provided substantive counsel regarding working with/through doubts many, many times:

• Stay in the Boat and Hold On! (By Elder M. Russell Ballard October 2014 General Conference)
• Yes, Lord, I Will Follow Thee (By Elder Eduardo Gavarret October 2014 General Conference)
• Receiving a Testimony of Light and Truth (By President Dieter F. Uchtdorf October 2014 General Conference)
• A Priceless Heritage of Hope (Henry B. EyringApril 2014 General Conference)
• Come, Join with Us (Dieter F. Uchtdorf October 2013 General Conference)
• The Hope of God’s Light (Dieter F. Uchtdorf April 2013 General Conference)
• “Lord, I Believe” (Jeffrey R. Holland April 2013 General Conference)
• It’s a Miracle (Neil L. Andersen April 2013 General Conference)
• By Faith All Things Are Fulfilled (Marcus B. Nash October 2012 General Conference)
• One Step Closer to the Savior (Russell T. Osguthorpe October 2012 General Conference)
• How to Obtain Revelation and Inspiration for Your Personal Life (Richard G. Scott April 2012 General Conference)
• The Spirit of Revelation (David A. Bednar April 2011 General Conference)
• Testimony (Cecil O. Samuelson Jr. April 2011 General Conference)
• Faith—the Choice is Yours (Richard C. Edgley October 2010 General Conference)
• Joseph Smith—Prophet of the Restoration (Tad R. Callister October 2009 General Conference)
• Get On with Our Lives (Steven E. Snow April 2009 General Conference)
• Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ (Kevin W. Pearson April 2009 General Conference)
• May You Have Courage (Thomas S. Monson April 2009 General Conference)

And these are just general conference talks I could glean in about three minutes of searching.  Imagine what a concerted, sincere effort to search out the words of prophets and apostles (in addition to the Scriptures) would yield.

 

And yet you come to this board and try to suggest that the Brethren have yet to convey a message of encouragement regarding doubts and inclusiveness regarding those who have them?

 

Really?

 

-Smac

 

[Scott Lloyd]

Apologies for that, added a bit, if that doesn't clear it up, I think we should just assume I am not going to be able to make my point as my brain is foggy at the moment.

No problem. I think I see what you're getting at.

[stemelbow]

I'm finding as more and more of these stories come out, I'm less and less interested in the details. These are other people's lives. They want to make this all public, and I get the point of doing so, but I'm not really in the position to understand either side of these ex'ings. makes me wish I never heard them. I either think the local leader's over-stepped, the Church has bad policies, or the individuals who want it public are promoting themselves too much for my taste---ALL negative.

I'm way too judgmental for this world--that's how I feel too much of the time. I'm not helping by acting like that. I don't know how else to view these stories though.

I should just leave it realizing everyone involved are just people trying to do what they think is best. In so doing, which is what most of us are about, we hurt people. That's too bad, but I'm not sure there's an easy way to escape that.

[stemelbow]

I don't understand this. All of God's children have worth, but what is it about the Calderwoods that make them "the best" Mormons?

I am not sure most faithful, observant Latter-day Saints would characterize the authors of the calumnies referenced here as being representative of "the best" that Mormonism has to offer.

 

With respect, might I recommend that you become more informed before making statements such as this. The Brethren have provided substantive counsel regarding working with/through doubts many, many times:

• Stay in the Boat and Hold On! (By Elder M. Russell Ballard October 2014 General Conference)
• Yes, Lord, I Will Follow Thee (By Elder Eduardo Gavarret October 2014 General Conference)
• Receiving a Testimony of Light and Truth (By President Dieter F. Uchtdorf October 2014 General Conference)
• A Priceless Heritage of Hope (Henry B. EyringApril 2014 General Conference)
• Come, Join with Us (Dieter F. Uchtdorf October 2013 General Conference)
• The Hope of God’s Light (Dieter F. Uchtdorf April 2013 General Conference)
• “Lord, I Believe” (Jeffrey R. Holland April 2013 General Conference)
• It’s a Miracle (Neil L. Andersen April 2013 General Conference)
• By Faith All Things Are Fulfilled (Marcus B. Nash October 2012 General Conference)
• One Step Closer to the Savior (Russell T. Osguthorpe October 2012 General Conference)
• How to Obtain Revelation and Inspiration for Your Personal Life (Richard G. Scott April 2012 General Conference)
• The Spirit of Revelation (David A. Bednar April 2011 General Conference)
• Testimony (Cecil O. Samuelson Jr. April 2011 General Conference)
• Faith—the Choice is Yours (Richard C. Edgley October 2010 General Conference)
• Joseph Smith—Prophet of the Restoration (Tad R. Callister October 2009 General Conference)
• Get On with Our Lives (Steven E. Snow April 2009 General Conference)
• Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ (Kevin W. Pearson April 2009 General Conference)
• May You Have Courage (Thomas S. Monson April 2009 General Conference)

And these are just general conference talks I could glean in about three minutes of searching.  Imagine what a concerted, sincere effort to search out the words of prophets and apostles (in addition to the Scriptures) would yield.

 

And yet you come to this board and try to suggest that the Brethren have yet to convey a message of encouragement regarding doubts and inclusiveness regarding those who have them?

 

Really?

 

-Smac

To be fair to Jeanne's point, as I read it, to explore feelings of doubt, often causes trouble, and makes those who doubt to feel like they aren't welcome. Ask me, I know this is true. Part of doubting is being able to explore doubts, those feelings, and thoughts. That's how I see it. And I think there is room for the Church ti improve on this. The Church should be more understanding of the process of doubt.

[carbon dioxide]

Wow..the Mormon Church keeps getting rid of the best in their religion.

I guess I must suck as a member because I am not doing what they are doing.

[Scott Lloyd]

To be fair to Jeanne's point, as I read it, to explore feelings of doubt, often causes trouble, and makes those who doubt to feel like they aren't welcome. Ask me, I know this is true. Part of doubting is being able to explore doubts, those feelings, and thoughts. That's how I see it. And I think there is room for the Church ti improve on this. The Church should be more understanding of the process of doubt.

Makes me wonder what you think the Church should be doing that it is not doing. Are you saying the Church should tolerate its members promoting and encouraging apostasy by others? Because that is where the Church has historically drawn the line, and it seems to me that stepping over that line is definitely a bridge too far.

Edited May 22, 2015 by Scott Lloyd

[carbon dioxide]

. The Church should be more understanding of the process of doubt.

Having doubt is one thing.  Sowing the seeds of doubt is another.

[smac97]

To be fair to Jeanne's point, as I read it, to explore feelings of doubt, often causes trouble, and makes those who doubt to feel like they aren't welcome.

The Calderwoods have published declarations to the world that "the LDS church is not God’s one true church as it states," that Carson has "became thoroughly convinced that the church isn’t true," that the Church " is just plain wrong on so many issues," that the LDS Church " is not, and never has been, God’s one and only true church on the earth," that it teaches "too much philosophy of men to truly be from God," that church leaders have "twisted, covered up, whitewashed, rationalized and straight-up lied about (the truth)," and that their (the Calderwoods') "loyalty is not to the church but truth and righteousness." And these are just from a very cursory skimming of their writings. And yet you came to this board and characterize the Calderwoods as merely "expressing doubt."

You (and Jeanne) are characterizing these published-to-the-world declarations as merely "explor(ing) feelings of doubt." I cannot accept this as an accurate or fair description of what the Calderwoods have done.

Ask me, I know this is true. Part of doubting is being able to explore doubts, those feelings, and thoughts. That's how I see it. And I think there is room for the Church ti improve on this. The Church should be more understanding of the process of doubt.

I think you seriously distort (heck, I think you might be entirely ignoring) just how much effort usually goes into avoiding disciplinary proceedings, into trying to help people like the Calderwoods address and work through doubts.

Thanks,

-Smac

[JLHPROF]

Having doubt is one thing.  Sowing the seeds of doubt is another.

 

I agree.   But if we put as much effort into helping people stay converted as we do converting them in the first place I think we'd be in a stronger place.

Not that there's no resource available.  Of course there is much available.  But there's an army of nearly 100,000 missionaries out there trying to convince people of the truth of the gospel.  Where is the six figure army trying to help those who have started to doubt?  It really makes me feel for the Bishops.

[carbon dioxide]

I agree.   But if we put as much effort into helping people stay converted as we do converting them in the first place I think we'd be in a stronger place.

Not that there's no resource available.  Of course there is much available.  But there's an army of nearly 100,000 missionaries out there trying to convince people of the truth of the gospel.  Where is the six figure army trying to help those who have started to doubt?  It really makes me feel for the Bishops.

It is one thing that has bothered me for years.  The Church spends a lot of time and energy trying to find new people to convert but does not do a lot to keep those that it has who are having troubles.  Perhaps its a home teacher problem.  Perhaps to many home teachers rely on the monthly First Presidency message rather than actually working with members like this who are having problems.  For these members, the First Presidency message accomplishes little.  Perhaps a weekly stake meeting is offered to members who are struggling.  Members can come together and work issues out.