Bishop Asked Me To Help Teach 5Th Sunday Lessons On The Essays

[Tacenda]

You are not wrong at all. The only place cultural Mormons exist is in Utah. It stands to reason. There is nowhere else anyone would care that you are a "fifth generation Mormon" and actually care if you were active or not.My ancestors from Poland probably have all been Catholic for a thousand years. Now I am Mormon.Maybe if I lived in the same village my ancestors came from in Poland, someone would care.Here? Not exactly!You cannot be a "cultural Mormon" where there IS NO "Mormon culture". A culture with one member is not a "culture"!

So we have a double whammy, we're Mormon, and from Utah!

[VideoGameJunkie]

I've never read any of the essays. I get all my essay info from here.

[Tacenda]

Antoni, you need to read about those that have a FC and live in the midst of this culture. Some or most, don't want to have both disbelief and live surrounded by the LDS culture/tribe. Remember Elder Holland's talk "Safety for the Soul"? The quote seems fitting for this example... "if he or she leaves this Church, it must be done by crawling over or under or around the Book of Mormon to make that exit." Now replace "Book of Mormon" with Mormon Utah culture and you hopefully get the idea.

ETA: I've mentioned two scenarios, one in another post about guessing ALarson's being happiest in this culture, and this post, where it can feel like you're in a state of suspension, so it varies.

ALarsen I wonder what lesson it will be replacing? I don't have the Teachings of Pres. Bensen, in past years they have always been handed out.

Edited May 8, 2015 by Tacenda

[Stargazer]

Here's a good website where all the essays are (and with links to lds.org too).

http://mormonessays.com/

 

We'll be discussing the "Race and the Priesthood" essay in a few weeks.

 

After reading this thread, and since I teach the High Priests Group in my ward, I thought I would discuss the Priesthood essay in our upcoming 4th week lesson.  I was going to do it this coming Sunday, but decided I needed more time to prepare, and more time for the discussion.

 

I did check with the HP group leader and he's in agreement with me.

[Stargazer]

Please do me a favor and correct any misunderstandings and faulty recollections I might have.

 

 READ THE BOARD RULES and stop conducting personal worthiness interviews. You are out of the thread.

Wait! What? You mean he's not the Bishop of the MD Ward?

[rodheadlee]

Here is the specific one being discussed:

https://www.lds.org/topics/race-and-the-priesthood?lang=eng

Other essays to be taught are also listed on the main page of the Gospel Topic page.

Thanks!

[rodheadlee]

You can include Southern Idaho in the Mormon culture thing too. My foster brother got asked what ward he was in when applying for a business permit. He said he didn't belong to the Church and then he was turned down for his permit. It's a long story but it's true. Same thing with a certain job application for driving truck with a local company.

[mfbukowski]

Of course Mormon culture exists outside of Utah. MF, unless you are joking I just can't understand your position here. There are 5th generation Mormons in many locations. Wherever you have a community of Mormons there will be a Mormon culture. Some if it will come by transplant from previous Utah Mormons, and some will come naturally via church leadership. In any case, there is strong traditional Mormon culture where I live and I'm nowhere near Utah. When I visit Utah I see some minor cultural differences but the heart of Mormon culture lives on strong outside of Utah.

I have read about it here, but I have never heard a living person actually say that they are a 5th generation Mormon. They are around, in fact my wife is 6th generation, but I just asked her to figure it out, because she was not sure.

If someone said that over the pulpit, people would think it was totally weird. What difference could it possibly make what your ancestors did or did not do?

Who cares?

[Antoni]

Antoni, you need to read about those that have a FC and live in the midst of this culture. Some or most, don't want to have both disbelief and live surrounded by the LDS culture/tribe.

 

 

Appreciate it's not easy but they don't have to remain in it or surrounded by it. Just as a great many that convert choose to leave their tribe and become part of this community.

My gripe is with those that want to have their cake and eat it when it comes to being anti/unbelieving but still be part of LDS community. Of course anyone is welcome at Sacrament meeting but the Church makes it clear what the requirements are for being a member of this community are.

 

Mfbukowski - I have Polish ancestry too - perhaps we'll meet up our family trees on Family Search at somepoint and end up distant releatives!

 

Anyway I've taken us on a tangent, sorry - Do let us know how the lessons go ALarson!

[Tacenda]

Appreciate it's not easy but they don't have to remain in it or surrounded by it. Just as a great many that convert choose to leave their tribe and become part of this community.

My gripe is with those that want to have their cake and eat it when it comes to being anti/unbelieving but still be part of LDS community. Of course anyone is welcome at Sacrament meeting but the Church makes it clear what the requirements are for being a member of this community are.

 

Mfbukowski - I have Polish ancestry too - perhaps we'll meet up our family trees on Family Search at somepoint and end up distant releatives!

 

Anyway I've taken us on a tangent, sorry - Do let us know how the lessons go ALarson!

Tangent here....whatever happened to "come back", I believe Pres. Hinckley said that to those who left. He said this during conference. How long have you been a member, because missionary work has always been to go after the inactives also. But they don't believe, stay away they have a germ of apostasy? Putting words in your mouth. Ask the spouses if they prefer their husband/wife to stay home instead of sit with them in Sacrament. In fact that is

what bishops want to have happen. How come Pres. Packer said to bear your testimony to help have one. How come the leaders urge us to work on our testimonies? Antoni, maybe you've only been a member a short time? Or active a short time to know this? Or is the church like a club vs. a hospital for the sinner? Sounds like you belong to the club version. Maybe that's why there are so many wounded not getting the help they need.

Sorry ALarson.

[Antoni]

Putting words in your mouth.

 

yes that's exactly what you've done.

 

I do not believe the church is a club. It's a community of faith. (as I have repeatedly said) I rejoice with the angels when an inactive returns or the prodigal amends their ways and have helped and will continue to do so any that the Lord has given me the chance to help.

 

Clearly one needs to have been a member for a certain number of years or brought up in the church to know anything in your eyes Tacenda.

 

It is a shame that to be a believing member of this church is met with such disdain on this board sometimes. Thanks to those that have helped me on my journey but as was shared on another thread recently by others, I too have grown weary with this now and so will bow out.

[HappyJackWagon]

 

It is a shame that to be a believing member of this church is met with such disdain on this board sometimes. Thanks to those that have helped me on my journey but as was shared on another thread recently by others, I too have grown weary with this now and so will bow out.

 

I think you are misreading things. Being a believing, faithful member isn't met with disdain on this board. Self righteousness is. Too often people can't tell the difference.

[Tacenda]

yes that's exactly what you've done.

I do not believe the church is a club. It's a community of faith. (as I have repeatedly said) I rejoice with the angels when an inactive returns or the prodigal amends their ways and have helped and will continue to do so any that the Lord has given me the chance to help.

Clearly one needs to have been a member for a certain number of years or brought up in the church to know anything in your eyes Tacenda.

It is a shame that to be a believing member of this church is met with such disdain on this board sometimes. Thanks to those that have helped me on my journey but as was shared on another thread recently by others, I too have grown weary with this now and so will bow out.

I'm sorry of how I came across, I guess I took what you said to mean unbelievers weren't welcome, or needed to be more faithful to be deserving of their membership. Now I wonder how come they stumble on these essay issues? Where they once were like you strong in their faith, maybe some blame needs to be put on the correlating department for downplaying the past. Maybe your disppointment is misplaced. Why do you need to bow out? Maybe start a thread on this, I can't. But if we were in person we might not get these misunderstandings.

[hope_for_things]

yes that's exactly what you've done.

 

I do not believe the church is a club. It's a community of faith. (as I have repeatedly said) I rejoice with the angels when an inactive returns or the prodigal amends their ways and have helped and will continue to do so any that the Lord has given me the chance to help.

 

Clearly one needs to have been a member for a certain number of years or brought up in the church to know anything in your eyes Tacenda.

 

It is a shame that to be a believing member of this church is met with such disdain on this board sometimes. Thanks to those that have helped me on my journey but as was shared on another thread recently by others, I too have grown weary with this now and so will bow out.

 

We all need to be more considerate with how we interact.  You have to realize that when you use labels like “Cultural Mormon”, or “Anit/Unbelieving” that these stereotypes have a negative connotation and can be hurtful.

 

I wouldn’t use these terms to describe myself.  I may not believe in the historicity of the BoM, but I do consider it scripture.  I may not have the same kind of beliefs as you do, but that doesn’t mean I’m an unbeliever or Anti.  It can be very difficult at times for a person like myself to attend church and feel like an accepted part of the community because there are many voices that don’t consider this path legitimate.   

 

I consider it worthwhile for a multitude of reasons.  I’m sure you have a multitude of reasons why you attend church as well.  We need to learn to appreciate our differences (we might learn something from each other) and also realize that we’re all part of this community and accentuate our similarities.  

[Calm]

ALarson, I thought you might like this article on teaching black Mormon history by a member of FairMormon (who is absolutely brilliant imo) and since the other thread where it fits a bit better is closed, I am posting it here:

 

http://www.sltrib.com/opinion/2484160-155/op-ed-hiding-mormon-race-history-doesnt

 

But the peace this approach brings is a superficial one, manufactured primarily for Saints who have enjoyed the luxury of never being told that they were less valiant in premortality or that they are "cursed." White Latter-day Saints can banter around explanations all day and then go home, not having felt their influence. For peoples of African descent, these are not academic ventures, speculations or flights of fancy. This question is one that faces them in the mirror every day: "Am I cursed? Am I worthy? What have I done to deserve this?" Why can't they "get over it," we white folks ask? Perhaps for the same reasons that the Latter-day Saints have not "gotten over" the Missouri persecutions.

In 2015 the Saints can do better. The sources are readily available. The documents are plentiful. They do not provide every answer we would like, but they provide more than enough for us to know that we should be unsatisfied with sound bites. 

I do not know the particulars concerning Dawson's interactions with his bishop, but we can be certain that the story of the temple and priesthood ban matters. We ought not expect peoples of African descent to shrug their shoulders in complacence at a history that fits too well with a broader system of systemic discrimination.

If the Latter-day Saints hope to claim for themselves the prospect of a global faith community, then they must answer the sincere question of many: Why? "There is hope smiling brightly before us," indeed, the Mormon hymn declares, but we can only echo the prayer of President Hugh B. Brown: "From the cowardice that shrinks from new truth, from the laziness that is content with half truth, from the arrogance that thinks it has all truth — O God of truth, deliver us."

 

[Bobbieaware]

I'm suddenly thunderstruck as I've come to realize eternity will be filled with people from planet earth (we are told the vast majority of them) who will somehow have to slog through eternity with the painful knowledge that because they weren't valiant in their "pre-immortal" life they are relegated to lesser degrees of glory and, apparently, lost priesthood blessings and powers. One wonders if God will mercifully place a veil of forgetfulness over their minds so they won't have to be constantly tormented with the knowledge of what might have been if they'd only been faithful? Meanwhile, back on earth we're engaged in an intense debate as we consider whether or not it's possible all may not have been equally valiant in the pre-earth spirit world (remember Abraham's noble and great ones who were foreordained to become God's earthly rulers?).

I don't pretend to know and understand all the ins and outs regarding the priesthood ban. But one thing's for sure, if today's politically correct attitudes follow us into the eternal world there's gonna be a whole lot of grumbling goin' on. I can hear it now, "how dare they say we weren't valiant in the pre-immortal word!!!"

The above may seem callous and snarky to introduce into this discussion, but who can deny one of the fundamental tenets of Mormonism is that our works follow us as we progress though eternity? And given the facts, who can deny the less valiant in mortality will suffer loss in the world to come? So, according to Mormonism, it's possible for individuals to be less faithful in previous states of existence and then have unfortunate consequences of that faithlessness follow the same individuals into another state of being. It seems the only alternative is to believe God places curses on certain lineages - such as the curses placed on the innocent descendants of Cain and Laman & Lemuel - without any apparent rhyme nor reason.

[Calm]

"we are told the vast majority of them"

CFR please

[Calm]

So, according to Mormonism, it's possible for individuals to be less faithful in previous states of existence and then have unfortunate consequences of that faithlessness follow the same individuals into another state of being. It seems the only alternative is to believe God places curses on certain lineages - such as the curses placed on the innocent descendants of Cain and Laman & Lemuel - without any apparent rhyme nor reason.

Are you saying you think there is a strong possibility that blacks were denied the priesthood because they were less valiant in the preexistence?

If so, did you read the essay put out by the Church and approved by the First Presidency iirc on the ban?

[Bobbieaware]

Are you saying you think there is a strong possibility that blacks were denied the priesthood because they were less valiant in the preexistence?

If so, did you read the essay put out by the Church and approved by the First Presidency iirc on the ban?

My point is that this very same theoretical scenario, that is decried by so many (I.e. that it's possible to have one's behaviors in one state of existence dramatically affect for the worst his condition in a later state of existence) is hard-wired into LDS theology and soteriology. That's my point. So regardless of what the actual facts might be pertaining to the priesthood ban, we're going to have to live with the reality that curses are perpetuated on individuals in the eternities based on their behaviors in earlier states off existence. So even if this principle doesn't hold true with the priesthood ban, it's a principle of spiritual reality that in one way or another we're all going to have to learn to live with in the eternal world, And considering the fact that this principle is true and real, it's very understandable the early leaders of the church would theorize that the priesthood ban was based on this same eternal spiritual principle. Given this reality, I for one will not condemn the early breathren for applying this unchangeable eternal principle as a logical explanation for the ban.

Edited May 11, 2015 by Bobbieaware

[JLHPROF]

So regardless of what the actual facts might be pertaining to the priesthood ban, we're going to have to live with the reality that curses are perpetuated on individuals in the eternities based on their behaviors in earlier states off existence. So even if this principle doesn't hold true with the priesthood ban, it's a principle of spiritual reality that in one way or another we're all going to have to learn to live with in the eternal world,

 

Priesthood ban aside, given that our actions in this life directly impact our situation in the next, I don't know how anyone can think that our situations in this life have no relation to the premortal existence.  We know from scripture that our actions in premortality absolutley influenced our situation here.

[Calm]

We are also taught the Atonement can over overcome all our weaknesses and faults if we choose God.

[JLHPROF]

We are also taught the Atonement can over overcome all our weaknesses and faults if we choose God.

 

This is true.

But there is still accountability for actions.

 

Those in the premortal life that fought God's plan were cast out permanently and don't get to come to earth.

Those in the premortal life that were among Gods most worthy children became his "noble and great ones" or leaders.

Those in this life that live all of Gods laws can achieve exaltation.

Those in this life that receive all of God's laws and reject them can become perdition.

 

And all stages in between.  Premortal lives affect this life.  This life affects the next.  And onward and onward for eternity.

Edited May 11, 2015 by JLHPROF

[Nevo]

The above may seem callous and snarky to introduce into this discussion. . .

 

Well, at least you're self-aware. I guess your moniker is well chosen. Anyway, I reject the idea that God curses lineages. I know the idea is scriptural, but I reject it. "Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated" strikes me as a case of projecting one's own ethnic prejudices onto God. The God I worship loves all his children and desires to save the whole human family. He doesn't "hate" particular lineages. I think D&C 93:39 comes closer to the truth: "Every spirit of man was innocent in the beginning; and God having redeemed man from the fall, men became again, in their infant state, innocent before God. And that wicked one cometh and taketh away light and truth, through disobedience, from the children of men, and because of the tradition of their fathers."

[JLHPROF]

I know the idea is scriptural, but I reject it.

 

I see a problem here...

[Bobbieaware]

Well, at least you're self-aware. I guess your moniker is well chosen. Anyway, I reject the idea that God curses lineages. I know the idea is scriptural, but I reject it. "Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated" strikes me as a case of projecting one's own ethnic prejudices onto God. The God I worship loves all his children and desires to save the whole human family. He doesn't "hate" particular lineages. I think D&C 93:39 comes closer to the truth: "Every spirit of man was innocent in the beginning; and God having redeemed man from the fall, men became again, in their infant state, innocent before God. And that wicked one cometh and taketh away light and truth, through disobedience, from the children of men, and because of the tradition of their fathers."

In God's infinite love and wisdom, he brings about curses that greater good than otherwise might occur will come to pass. The fall of Adam is a curse that has passed upon the entire human race. But though there are great difficulties, arduous challenges, sore trials and extreme tragedies associated with the curse, it's basic LDS doctrine that the fall of man is in reality a very great blessing in disguise.

So it will be with all the curses pronounced by the Almighty: One day, when all the facts of God's hidden economy are in, we will come to realize every curse he decrees is, in reality, a great blessings in disguise. For example, when after the final judgement God relegates the majority of his resurrected children to lower kingdoms of glory than the celestial kingdom, we will understand these relegations to lower glories are wisely and lovingly calculated by a Supreme Intelligence to bring about the greatest chances for happiness, and the greatest opportunities for spiritual growth, as perfectly adapted to each soul's present spiritual state and need.

The Book of Mormon tells us God does nothing save it be for the blessing and benefit of man. When one's spiritual eyes are opened to divine reality by the workings of the Spirit of God, he is able to peer into the other side of a lifted veil to see that behind all the strict and seemingly harsh judgements of God there lies the very heart and soul of charitable benevolence. And just because God's inner workings are often called mysteries, that doesn't mean we are all doomed to remain in doubt and perplexity for the rest of our lives when it comes to the hard issues discussed on this board, God is able and ready to reveal the secrets of his will to those who implicitly trust that he is the very embodiment of perfect love and wisdom, and that lying behind the facade of severity there exists an unchangeable pure motivation to always do what is in the eternal best interests of each one of his children.

Edited May 11, 2015 by Bobbieaware