Early Lds Church Compared To Current Fundamentalist Splinter Groups

[sjdawg]

this is a serious question so I hope I'm not offending anyone with it.

 

I have been reading the book "under the banner of heaven" by John Krakauer.   The fundamentalists/extremists described in the book certainly bear few if any similarities to the LDS church I grew up in.   

 

what I am wondering is how do the beliefs of the existing LDS fundamentalists differ from the beliefs/teachings of the early LDS church?   If the fundamentalists are to believed (I don't believe) they are teaching the original LDS doctrine.   Where do that have it wrong?   

 

 

[JLHPROF]

That book is just awful.  All the Church history of Joseph comes from No Man Knows My History - no real research.  The author has a total anti-Mormon bias and delights in connecting Joseph and the early Church to not just fundamentalists, but to a couple of psychotic murders pretending to be religious.

Tabloid writing.

 

what I am wondering is how do the beliefs of the existing LDS fundamentalists differ from the beliefs/teachings of the early LDS church?   If the fundamentalists are to believed (I don't believe) they are teaching the original LDS doctrine.   Where do that have it wrong?   

 

That depends entirely on which fundamentalist group you are talking about.  People like the FLDS and Kingstons have little to no resemblance to the early Church.  Groups like the AUB and Centennial Park (and some independents) try very hard to be closer to the early Church.

 

Here is an interesting article I posted a while back that may be of use.  Some of these are definitely closer to the early Church than we are today.  Others are a little strange.  http://bycommonconsent.com/2008/05/11/some-subtle-differences-between-fundamentalist-and-mainstream-mormonism/

[Coreyb]

Yes there are similarities in that some fundamentalists hold to doctrines of the early UTAH church, however the early LDS church was not "fundamentalist" in the typical sense of the word. They were in fact more "progressive", in that they focused on expansion in numbers, doctrine, practice, ritual, and culture. A fundamentalist religion is one that survives by doggedly holding fast to principles with little room for variation or expansion. This is what drives many of the fundamentalist Mormon groups today, and is the cause of their problems far more than polygamy or even the doctrine of blood atonement. Poor choice of book BTW. He is a talented writer but pretty awful historian. Just my opinion of course

[sjdawg]

I agree the book is awful.  Very difficult to read and some of the connections are pretty weak.

 

I know Joseph Smith and others also married some young girls but I believe/hope that those marriages were nothing like the ones described in this book that took place between say 1970 and 2000 in fundamentalist groups

Edited April 28, 2015 by sjdawg

[Tacenda]

Delete

Edited April 28, 2015 by Tacenda

[Teancum]

That book is just awful.  All the Church history of Joseph comes from No Man Knows My History - no real research.  The author has a total anti-Mormon bias and delights in connecting Joseph and the early Church to not just fundamentalists, but to a couple of psychotic murders pretending to be religious.

Tabloid writing.

 

 

That depends entirely on which fundamentalist group you are talking about.  People like the FLDS and Kingstons have little to no resemblance to the early Church.  Groups like the AUB and Centennial Park (and some independents) try very hard to be closer to the early Church.

 

Here is an interesting article I posted a while back that may be of use.  Some of these are definitely closer to the early Church than we are today.  Others are a little strange.  http://bycommonconsent.com/2008/05/11/some-subtle-differences-between-fundamentalist-and-mainstream-mormonism/

Good post. I agree the Krakuer book was awful.

[sjdawg]

Good post. I agree the Krakuer book was awful.

I don't think I'll even be able to finish the book.  It is both hard to read and has a lot of misinformation about the LDS church I knew.   It did just make me think about the early church.   I know the splinter groups (at least some of them) say they are following the original church teachings but even as a former mormon I have a hard time accepting the early church members engaged in behaviors like those described in the book

[williamsmith]

Krakauer was actually hired and paid by a Christian anti-mormon group to write his book.

Also, while there are huge amounts of falsehoods and poor scholarship in the book, the one claim I find the most offensive is his belief that Brigham Young ordered the massacre at Mountain Meadows.

There are several direct evidences that he did not, the biggest being a letter he wrote and sent before the massacre (which was carbon copied in the letter book in date order and thus not possible to have been forged or written after the fact) that clearly shows he instructed the saints to leave the party alone.

 

As to similarity's to modern Fundamentalists and the early church, only in the most basic normal things, not even close to what anti-mormons portray.

Mormons always lived in the open, with also non-mormons around and with them, there was never any "force", very few mormons even practiced polygamy, and on and on.

Essentially all of the bad characteristics one see's with fundamentalists simply never existed with the early church.  It is only by straining some cherry picked events or statements out of their context and reality do anti's like Krakauer paint the early church into a similar picture.

 

The church as it is today, it's practices, behaviors, it's people is essentially the same exact church we have always been.

It has only been a 180 years since it's founding, living in a modern and open age, and as a systematic religion little changes, so what you see today is essentially what we have always been.

One further knows this when being around a lot of older members from all areas of the church, including Utah.  We are the same yesterday, today, and forever.

Edited April 28, 2015 by williamsmith

[JLHPROF]

Mormons always lived in the open, with also non-mormons around and with them, there was never any "force", very few mormons even practiced polygamy, and on and on.

 

There are a lot of things in your post I have to disagree with.

 

Uh, no?

1.  Members of the Church, including the prophet were in hiding for polygamy in the 1870's-1900's.  This is where the fundamentalists isolation tendencies come from - a direct carryover.

2. "Few Mormons" - that is hotly debated.  Estimates go as high as 25%.

 

 

Essentially all of the bad characteristics one see's with fundamentalists simply never existed with the early church.

 

Such as?

 

 

The church as it is today, it's practices, behaviors, it's people is essentially the same exact church we have always been.

 

No, not really.  The Church in the 1800s was a very different animal than the Church today.  And it was much closer to SOME fundamentalist groups.  How could it not be?  Whenever the Church made a change these groups kept the original teaching/practice.  We aren't talking adding new things like the FLDS group.

Edited April 28, 2015 by JLHPROF

[The Nehor]

Most fundamentalists are attempting to copy the 19th Century when that is not what the gospel is about.

 

All of them fail in numerous ways. Many of them are anti-education which would have peeved Joseph and Brigham. You can go through all of them. They are idealizing a bygone era that is passed. Faith looks to the future not the past.

[cinepro]

this is a serious question so I hope I'm not offending anyone with it.

 

I have been reading the book "under the banner of heaven" by John Krakauer.   The fundamentalists/extremists described in the book certainly bear few if any similarities to the LDS church I grew up in.   

 

what I am wondering is how do the beliefs of the existing LDS fundamentalists differ from the beliefs/teachings of the early LDS church?   If the fundamentalists are to believed (I don't believe) they are teaching the original LDS doctrine.   Where do that have it wrong?   

 

Well, there's this:

 

LDS Youth Group Scrambles to find Summer Activities

 

Scott Simpson, Rocky Mountain News

 

May 05, 2008

 

After completing a memorable four day handcart pioneer reenactment last August, the Young Men and Young Women of the Killeen, Texas Stake for the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (LDS) were looking forward to another memorable summer youth activity. Their stake had been selected as one of the few youth groups to participate in the continuing “Know Your Ancestors” pioneer reenactment experience at the Yearning For Zion (YFZ) Ranch near Eldorado, TX. But now word has come that all youth conferences provided by the Ranch have been canceled, and they need to find a new activity.

 

Youth and leaders of LDS Church were looking forward to the five day experience, meant to teach youth about the early Utah pioneers and the trials they faced as a persecuted, isolated, polygamous sect. “I’m kind of disappointed, but I understand why,” comments teacher Bill Shapley of the Waco 2nd Ward. “The handcart campout was awesome, and it totally pumped up my testimony. I wanted to know what came next, and this sounded like a great activity.”

 

The YFZ Ranch, home to the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (FLDS), had created the camp experience at the request of local LDS leaders, who saw the potential for an expanded learning and spiritual experience for their youth. In the last decade, reenactments have become popular activities for LDS seeking an understanding of the pioneer experience. Youth dress in authentic pioneer clothing and pull recreated handcarts over dusty roads, camping at night. Additional efforts are made to give the youth a dramatic experience, including giving young women “dolls” to care for as their “babies”. During the multi-day activity, the dolls are taken from the youth at random intervals to teach about the many young lives lost in the original migration. At other times, volunteers dressed in white clothing will assist the handcart-pulling youth as “angels”, to simulate the spiritual help often felt by their pioneer ancestors.

 

YFZ Ranch foreman Rulon Taylor shared similar feelings of disappointment. “It’s a darn shame. We had prepared a wonderful itinerary of frontier activities for the young people, along with activities to boost their spiritual knowledge and sensitivity.” Some of those activities included barn building, hand washing the laundry, digging irrigation ditches, and sewing long-sleeved underwear. Throughout the week, certain young men would be “called” to participate in pretend-sealings to simulate polygamous marriages. If youth were reluctant to participate in this aspect of the reenactment, volunteers dressed in white with “flaming swords” would visit the young men as they slept and “command” them to begin practicing polygamy.

 

“For the flaming swords, we got some really nice lightsaber thingamajiggers from the Wal-Mart Supercenter up in San Angelo. They make a dramatic swooshing sound, and it really drives the point home about how important it is to be obedient, even if you didn’t want to. Sometimes the best way to learn about using your agency to make righteous choices is to encounter a “sword wielding angel”, if you know what I mean,” Rulon explained.

 

The Young women would also have reenactment activities tailored for their interests. In addition to the laundry and sewing, some young women would be taken aside by their leaders throughout the week and be told they had been chosen to become plural wives to some of the adult male leaders. “Of course it’s all for pretend, and the modern LDS Church doesn’t practice polygamy. But it’s the doctrine that’s important, as well as the sacrifice of our ancestors” says Stake Young Women’s President Kelly Smith. “The Young women may become repulsed at the idea of having to marry one of the 55-year-old men in the Stake, and by the end of the week, they could be his fourth or fifth pretend wife. But think how Isaac felt as he was asked to sacrifice himself on an altar for the Lord. The girls need to learn that same kind of faith. After all, we tell them the salvation of their entire family might depend on it.”

 

A new addition to this year’s camp would shorten the stay for some of the young men in the group. Throughout the week, the camp counselors would select certain young men to be sent on “missions”, where they would be “called” to leave the Ranch and return home. The boys would be selected based on their spiritual development, or their popularity among the young women in the group. While they’re away on their “missions”, any girls they were pretend-married to can be courted and pretend-sealed to the older leaders and counselors at the Ranch. Additionally, camp counselors will privately interview young men and women as “couples” to see if they would be willing to pretend-seal the woman to the acting “Prophet” (in this case, Stake Young Men’s President Don Harwood).

 

Youth would spend their time performing chores, studying their scriptures (using authentic 19th century reproductions of the standard works), and leaders would conduct worship services by reciting passages from the Journal of Discourses, a collection of sermons from that era. The highlight of the week would be the final testimony meeting, where youth and leaders could share what they have learned, and how their testimonies had been strengthened. All public prayers during the week would be offered by the male leaders and youth only.

 

“When I finished the pioneer trek last summer, I just knew the Church was true,” said Trey Applegate, a priest in the Waco 1st ward. “I knew there was no way the pioneers could have crossed the plains and had their babies die if Joseph Smith hadn’t been a true prophet. And I was hoping this summer’s conference would help me to get the same testimony about my great-great-great grandparents in Utah. I’ve heard they’re going to have openings in the Colorado City programs, and we might be able to get into those.”

 

Rulon Taylor says all future activities are on hold, pending the onset of apocalyptic cleansing by fire and the end of times, ushered in by the anti-christ’s persecution of Zion and desecration of the Temple. “But if that doesn’t work out like we expect, we’ll start taking applications for summer of ’09 in February.”

[BookofMormonLuvr]

The Fundamentalist group I was associated with values education, many have completed their high school studies at 15-16 year-old. Several of the women are nurses, there is a number of electricians, the President was the chair of the Naturopath Association in Nevada, one of his counselors is a higher up at Nevada Power. As for being stuck in the 19th century- if a member was living next door to you, you would have no idea whatsoever.

[JLHPROF]

The Fundamentalist group I was associated with values education, many have completed their high school studies at 15-16 year-old. Several of the women are nurses, there is a number of electricians, the President was the chair of the Naturopath Association in Nevada, one of his counselors is a higher up at Nevada Power. As for being stuck in the 19th century- if a member was living next door to you, you would have no idea whatsoever.

 

This is what I'm saying.  Based on the various groups I've taken the time to study there is a huge difference between the nutjobs  and those who legitimately try to keep their religion the same way as Joseph in Nauvoo/Brigham Young and John Taylor in Utah.

 

I have a great deal of respect for those who are really just trying to keep to the precepts of the restored early Church without any of the changes we have made in the Church.  I have zero respect for those (like Warren Jeffs) who become a law unto themselves.

[cinepro]

Most fundamentalists are attempting to copy the 19th Century when that is not what the gospel is about.

 

All of them fail in numerous ways. Many of them are anti-education which would have peeved Joseph and Brigham. You can go through all of them. They are idealizing a bygone era that is passed. Faith looks to the future not the past.

 

Well, to be fair, they probably just aspire to a 19-century level of education.

 

Heck, there are even LDS-centric private schools that have a gospel-centric education that might seem a little..."anti-education"?

 

 

 

A providential view of history is taught and re-enforced through the use of timelines in each classroom that begin with pre-mortal life, continue with developments in the Bible and Book of Mormon as well as world and American history and end with the Second Coming. Additionally, students are taught to see the hand of God particularly in the establishment and preservation of America through stories that are shared from American history.

And...

 

What is Restoration-based education? It is too comprehensive to cover in one short article, but there are some basics that it must include:

The Standard Works

Words of the Prophets

Inclusion of talks by LDS authorities about academic topics.

Recognition and instruction of God’s intervention in historical events.

Recognition and instruction in how the great events in history have all been part of God’s plan i.e. the Great Discoveries, Reformation, Reformers, Pilgrim Ministers, Founding Fathers, Great Awakening, etc....

The reading of principled works of literature by LDS writers.

The reading and confrontation of accepted scientific “doctrines” by leading LDS scientists and general authorities.

There are those who believe that combining academics and religion will cause one or the other to suffer. Some believe secular knowledge should carry more importance than religious knowledge. Others would concentrate solely on the religious aspects. We respectfully disagree with both views. If taught correctly, a Restoration approach to education will blend the two disciplines together in such a manner as to give the student a complete education. While simpler and less challenging, the current homogenous approach will result in a “one-eyed” education, one that touches the mind but not the heart. When pure truth is taught then the spirit can enlarge our minds and allow the Holy Ghost to testify to our souls, thus turning knowledge into motivation and action.

Edited April 28, 2015 by cinepro

[The Nehor]

Well, to be fair, they probably just aspire to a 19-century level of education.

 

Heck, there are even LDS-centric private schools that have a gospel-centric education that might seem a little..."anti-education"?

I think they misspelled provincial and the spell checker game them providential.

[cinepro]

I think they misspelled provincial and the spell checker game them providential.

 

"re-enforced"  

[The Nehor]

I admit I hate schools like that. I think their goals are admirable but the execution is almost unfailingly bad. They tend to attract crazy parents who demand crazy standards and the schools sink to the craziest common denominator until you are banning books from the curriculum left and right at the whim of the most hysterical parent and chopping up the history curriculum at the whim of the most rabid Limbaugh fan terrified his child might lose their soul and not see that all government programs were not hand-crafted by the devil.

[Avatar4321]

I think I tried to read that book once, it may have been another. Can't remember. Didn't get very far just from all the obvious mistakes.

I don't know all the fundamental groups but I think a major difference I've seen is missionary work. They end to enclose themselves from the world where Joseph and them were out trying to convert it.

but as has been said here there are different groups.

[JLHPROF]

I think I tried to read that book once, it may have been another. Can't remember. Didn't get very far just from all the obvious mistakes.

I don't know all the fundamental groups but I think a major difference I've seen is missionary work. They end to enclose themselves from the world where Joseph and them were out trying to convert it.

but as has been said here there are different groups.

 

According to what I've studied that's because they believe missionary work remains the province of the Church as a preparatory work to receiving baptism.  They believe the Church still holds the responsibility for the first principles and conversion to Christ.  But they also believe the Church has given up the meat as they understand it and that they are the higher priesthood authority until such time as God brings the meat back into the Church.

In some cases they consider the Church "fishers of men" but themselves "hunters" of those who are ready for the meat.

At least that's what I've read in various places.  (And not all groups agree with this - FLDS I think believe the Church will be broken down for its "errors".)

[Uncle Dale]

All this talk brings a thought to my mind...

 

Suppose that a month long "pageant" were to 

be held annually at, say, Manti or St. George --

and all of the clothing, food, discourses,

hymns, practices, etc. had to mimic those of

1856, as closely as possible.

 

In attending a Sunday sacrament service during

the "pageant," what would you expect to see and

hear that was different from today's LDS Church?

 

What preaching/teaching would trouble you?

 

What would inspire you?

 

UD

 

(remember, 1856 was "The Reformation," and Elder Jed. Grant held much sway)

[JLHPROF]

All this talk brings a thought to my mind...

 

Suppose that a month long "pageant" were to 

be held annually at, say, Manti or St. George --

and all of the clothing, food, discourses,

hymns, practices, etc. had to mimic those of

1856, as closely as possible.

 

In attending a Sunday sacrament service during

the "pageant," what would you expect to see and

hear that was different from today's LDS Church?

 

What preaching/teaching would trouble you?

 

What would inspire you?

 

UD

 

(remember, 1856 was "The Reformation," and Elder Jed. Grant held much sway)

 

1856 meeting would be a fiery experience (especially if Brigham's sledgehammer was conducting).  People would be encouraged to enter polygamy as soon as possible.  Removal from Babylon and building up God's temporal kingdom through consecration/united order would likely be preached.  Bro. Brigham might expound on the Adam-God doctrine.  There would be a lot of calling to repentance.  A strong emphasis on men AND women doing their duties to God regardless of self-sacrifice.  

As for the clothing everyone would be dressed in wrist length/ankle length clothing, no questions of modesty here.  The 1850's Church was VERY different than the Church today in so many ways.

 

I would probably find it more "inspiring" than most...

Edited April 29, 2015 by JLHPROF

[CCRW]

That book is just awful.  All the Church history of Joseph comes from No Man Knows My History - no real research.  The author has a total anti-Mormon bias and delights in connecting Joseph and the early Church to not just fundamentalists, but to a couple of psychotic murders pretending to be religious.

Tabloid writing.

 

 

That depends entirely on which fundamentalist group you are talking about.  People like the FLDS and Kingstons have little to no resemblance to the early Church.  Groups like the AUB and Centennial Park (and some independents) try very hard to be closer to the early Church.

 

Here is an interesting article I posted a while back that may be of use.  Some of these are definitely closer to the early Church than we are today.  Others are a little strange.  http://bycommonconsent.com/2008/05/11/some-subtle-differences-between-fundamentalist-and-mainstream-mormonism/

cool beans ... I could have been a fundamentalist ... hey do you have relatives, same last name in Manti or Heber?  One of my best friends is of that clan

[JLHPROF]

cool beans ... I could have been a fundamentalist ... hey do you have relatives, same last name in Manti or Heber?  One of my best friends is of that clan

 

Nope, I'm in Utah County by way of Canada and England.

[CCRW]

hmmm, looking some more, very nice to put a face to the name, and very impressive ... what's the jlhprof about?

[Coreyb]

I would say along with JLHPROF and Uncle that groups like the FLDS and the Lebaron and Kingston clans (I know there are other much different groups, but these are the ones Krakauer focuses on) take much of their doctrine and culture from the 1850s reformation and Utah war period and 1880s prosecution and underground period, probably the most turbulent and tragic decades, along with late 1830s-1840s, in the history of the church. The "underground" culture directly crossed into fundamentalism since the original members of the movement essentially never left the underground. They went from hiding from federal authorities to hiding from church and state authorities in one generation, and brought that mindset into the new movement. The borrowed culture from the 1850s seems to me a reaction to the modern world and modern church by embracing a nostalgia for an earlier time, a typical fundamentalist trait. I think it had a lot to do with the glorifying of the early saints, as well as intense study of the available teaching from that time period, namely the Journal of discourses, by leaders like Joseph Musser. Also, they went out to colonize a desert in mirror of what their ancestors did in the 1850s and so I think that they were drawn to that period through the experience of reenacting it.

The problem is, you can't cherry pick history in order to reproduce it. History cannot be reproduced in the present. There was a lot more going in the early church in those decades than the few items the fundamentalists have adopted. Yes there was harsh and authoritarian leadership in the 1850s. Yes there was church condoned violence, enforcement, lots of plural marriages that ended badly, racism, and an incredible us vs. them mentality. Yes there was lying, obfuscation, hiding, and questionable financial activities while the church was on the underground. Yes all those can be found in groups like the FLDS today, but the circumstances are not nearly the same. It's pretty easy for a writer like Krakauer to write a book drawing together all the negative parallels in order to prove a pre determined point, that all religious people are just a few revelations away from killing babies, but it must be done at the expense of objectivity and understanding "the rest of the story". It's just bad history.