Early Lds Church Compared To Current Fundamentalist Splinter Groups

[Coreyb]

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Edited April 29, 2015 by Coreyb

[Uncle Dale]

1856 meeting would be a fiery experience (especially if Brigham's sledgehammer was conducting).  People would be encouraged to enter polygamy as soon as possible.  Removal from Babylon and building up God's temporal kingdom through consecration/united order would likely be preached.  Bro. Brigham might expound on the Adam-God doctrine.  There would be a lot of calling to repentance.  A strong emphasis on men AND women doing their duties to God regardless of self-sacrifice.  

As for the clothing everyone would be dressed in wrist length/ankle length clothing, no questions of modesty here.  The 1850's Church was VERY different than the Church today in so many ways.

 

I would probably find it more "inspiring" than most...

 

 

Were I invited to such a pageant, I suppose that the part I'd find

inspiring, would be the pioneers (even though it's just play acting).

 

Anybody who could make it across the Great Plains in a wagon

back then would just naturally draw my admiration and respect.

 

The part I'd probably find most troubling would be the hateful

anti-Americanism. Even if it were just the kind of play acting

folks do in re-creating battlefield conflicts, etc., I'd be very 

uncomfortable hearing early 1850s Deseret News style

condemnations of the Union and its leaders. I'd be more

uncomfortable in calling down the wrath of God upon the

United States (even in knowing it was all artificial).

 

UD

[Gervin]

Krakauer was actually hired and paid by a Christian anti-mormon group to write his book.

 

cite?

[Avatar4321]

According to what I've studied that's because they believe missionary work remains the province of the Church as a preparatory work to receiving baptism.  They believe the Church still holds the responsibility for the first principles and conversion to Christ.  But they also believe the Church has given up the meat as they understand it and that they are the higher priesthood authority until such time as God brings the meat back into the Church.

In some cases they consider the Church "fishers of men" but themselves "hunters" of those who are ready for the meat.

At least that's what I've read in various places.  (And not all groups agree with this - FLDS I think believe the Church will be broken down for its "errors".)

So they have no responsibility to share the gospel?

Seems like a cop out. No one can tell me that one has the meat of the gospel while ignoring one of the fundamental duties of the priesthood.

[Damien the Leper]

So they have no responsibility to share the gospel?

Seems like a cop out. No one can tell me that one has the meat of the gospel while ignoring one of the fundamental duties of the priesthood.

Can you expand on this? I'd like to see where you're going with it. Not because I disagree but because I'm interested.

[JLHPROF]

So they have no responsibility to share the gospel?.

 

From their perspective, that's like asking if a Deacon has the responsibility to confirm members of the Church.  Or perhaps more precisely, like asking if an Apostle has a responsibility to collect fast offerings and pass the sacrament.

 

 

Seems like a cop out. No one can tell me that one has the meat of the gospel while ignoring one of the fundamental duties of the priesthood

 

I don't see where you are getting that.  The idea is that they are acting within the purview of their callings and the Church is doing the same.

[Avatar4321]

Sharing the gospel is one of the most fundamental principles of the gospel. You don't even need a priesthood office, we are all commanded to warn our neighbors and I expect this will continue until the Lord tells us to cease ao He can preach the final sermons.

and yet these people claim to have a greater understanding of the gospel and are exempt from sharing the gospel. It makes no sense. Even the twelve preach the gospel. Heck they can collect fast offerings and they do regularly pass the sacrament.

Christ said the greatest among us would be the least among us. Even He preaches the word, yet they are exempt because they greater meat?

I'm sorry that makes no sense.

[JLHPROF]

Sharing the gospel is one of the most fundamental principles of the gospel. You don't even need a priesthood office, we are all commanded to warn our neighbors and I expect this will continue until the Lord tells us to cease ao He can preach the final sermons.

and yet these people claim to have a greater understanding of the gospel and are exempt from sharing the gospel. It makes no sense. Even the twelve preach the gospel. Heck they can collect fast offerings and they do regularly pass the sacrament.

Christ said the greatest among us would be the least among us. Even He preaches the word, yet they are exempt because they greater meat?

I'm sorry that makes no sense.

 

Fair enough.  That's just what I'd read.  I have no idea beyond that.

They aren't against sharing the gospel, just that going on missions to spread the first principles and the BoM they believe is a Church calling.  I'm pretty sure members of ANY religion still gain converts or else they would disintegrate.  Fundamentalists must have some converts or they'd implode.  And those converts would have to be taught that group's teachings right?

 

I am curious how often a member of the 12 passes sacrament though?

[sanfran1976]

Leaving the controversy of the Jon Krakauer book aside, it's an interesting question. The LDS fundamentalists practice plural marriage as JS, BY, and other early LDS prophets did...yet the mainstream LDS church excommunicates those who do. By today's standards, JS, BY, JFS, and others would be excommunicated by the LDS church. Funny that the founders of the LDS church would be excommunicated today. 

 

Furthermore, the LDS fundamentalists seems to have active prophecy, while the mainstream LDS church doesn't (give me a dogmatic prophecy from the last decade). The LDS church of recent decades seems to be actively discarding early LDS teachings (overturning racial conditions for priesthood, disavowing the BY Adam-God theory, disavowing the idea that god was once as man was and that man can become as god is, etc.) while the fundamentalist LDS hard being faithful to these teachings. It seems the LDS is trying hard to distance themselves from the teachings/practices of JS and BY.

 

If I were an early Mormon, I would look at the current LDS church and cry, "Apostasy! Why have we abandoned polygamy/polyandry? Why have we abandoned the idea of god once being a man? Why have we abandoned the idea that man can become god? Why have we abandoned active prophecy?"

 

Anyway, just a view from the outside.

[Calm]

 By today's standards, JS, BY, JFS, and others would be excommunicated by the LDS church. Funny that the founders of the LDS church would be excommunicated today. 

 

Except they of course would not be stuck unable to change in some time loop, but be able to change just like everyone around them and upon seeing the continuing revelation that they taught was functioning well in their faith, most likely would accept it and not be excommunicated at all just as they accepted continuing revelation during their time period.

 

 

early LDS teachings

Earliest LDS racial teachings of JS of equality in the Priesthood and access to the temple have been restored by the LDS faith.

" disavowing the idea that god was once as man was and that man can become as god is"

 

 

You need to check out the Gospel Principles manual, Exaltation chapter and Gospel Topics Becoming Like God.

 

Anyway, just a view from the outside.

 

And once more demonstrating just how often outsiders would get things wrong through not really taking the time to learn and understand.

Edited May 7, 2015 by calmoriah

[ALarson]

Earliest LDS racial teachings of JS of equality in the Priesthood and access to the temple have been restored by the LDS faith.

Great quote.  Do you mind if I use it for the upcoming discussion on "Race and the Priesthood"?  This is a great positive way to present it.

[Calm]

Sure.

[Avatar4321]

 

I am curious how often a member of the 12 passes sacrament though?

Every Thursday from my understanding.

[carbon dioxide]

this is a serious question so I hope I'm not offending anyone with it.

 

I have been reading the book "under the banner of heaven" by John Krakauer.   The fundamentalists/extremists described in the book certainly bear few if any similarities to the LDS church I grew up in.   

 

what I am wondering is how do the beliefs of the existing LDS fundamentalists differ from the beliefs/teachings of the early LDS church?   If the fundamentalists are to believed (I don't believe) they are teaching the original LDS doctrine.   Where do that have it wrong?   

One difference I see between the early LDS Church and the "fundamentalists" is that the fundamentalist put too much emphasis on polygamy.   The early church practiced polygamy but they did a lot of other things as well like sent out missionaries to preach the gospel to as many would hear.  The "fundamentalists" have rejected that important part.  They tend to isolate themselves from the world.  In the early Church it was just a practice, to the fundamentalists, they almost worship it.

[JLHPROF]

One difference I see between the early LDS Church and the "fundamentalists" is that the fundamentalist put too much emphasis on polygamy.   The early church practiced polygamy but they did a lot of other things as well like sent out missionaries to preach the gospel to as many would hear.  The "fundamentalists" have rejected that important part.  They tend to isolate themselves from the world.  In the early Church it was just a practice, to the fundamentalists, they almost worship it.

 

I don't think this accurately describes what most fundamentalists believe.  At least according to what I've read/studied.

[BookofMormonLuvr]

I don't think this accurately describes what most fundamentalists believe.  At least according to what I've read/studied.

 

From personal experience, I can tell you that it is not accurate.

 

[JLHPROF]

 

From personal experience, I can tell you that it is not accurate.

 

 

No.  They don't worship polygamy and ignore missionary work.  The majority don't consider themselves separate churches.

They consider themselves the modern day equivalent of Joseph's "Anointed Quorum", forced to be separate from the Church and focus on the higher priesthood ordinances (that they think the Church has given up).

 

The idea that they "don't believe in missionary work" is not accurate as far as I can tell.

And the idea that they "worship polygamy" is a by product of the fundamentalist focus on keeping the things the Church gave up.  Polygamy is just the most prominent of many.

 

Brian Hales fundamentalist website (and many of the fundamentalist writings) are pretty readily available for anyone interested in those groups.

[carbon dioxide]

I don't think this accurately describes what most fundamentalists believe.  At least according to what I've read/studied.

What fundamentalist group sends out missionaries to preach the gospel? 

[carbon dioxide]

I don't think this accurately describes what most fundamentalists believe.  At least according to what I've read/studied.

What fundamentalist group sends out missionaries to preach the gospel? 

[BookofMormonLuvr]

What fundamentalist group sends out missionaries to preach the gospel? 

The "Peterson Group" has a few men that will go out on short missions, and they have a few that do some online proselyting. 

[JLHPROF]

What fundamentalist group sends out missionaries to preach the gospel? 

 

To what end?

 

They wouldn't be accepted as members of the LDS Church.

They don't believe they are a separate Church.

To what would they be trying to convert people?

 

You are looking at this wrong.  Joseph sent missionaries out to convert people to the gospel and have them baptized into the Church.

He did not send missionaries out to search out members of his anointed quorum.

Do you think the Church would issue mission callings to the young members of the fundamentalist groups?

[Avatar4321]

That's just it. By separating themselves from the church they are separating themselves from the latter day work. The evidence is they don't do it.

They have proclaimed themselves "the anointed" quorum but completely disregard the duties of the priesthood. Even the savior preached the gospel.

[BookofMormonLuvr]

That's just it. By separating themselves from the church they are separating themselves from the latter day work. The evidence is they don't do it.

They have proclaimed themselves "the anointed" quorum but completely disregard the duties of the priesthood. Even the savior preached the gospel.

They would argue that the LDS Church's Priesthood function is salvation, and their Priesthood function is exaltation.

The group I was a part of diverges with other FM's, in that they believe the LDS Church lost even the salvational function when they gave blacks the Priesthood and allowed them in the temples.