Why Did Polygamy Need To Be Restored When Not Previously Commanded?

[carbon dioxide]

Now that is. Unique defense...comparing JS to Hugh Hefner! Wow!

I don't know if I was making that comparison.  Just that age difference really is not that big of a deal unless one wants to personally make it a big deal. 

[Calm]

Would those of you who take issue with Joseph Smith, a 38 year old marrying younger and older women have less of a problem if it was an 19 year old man who was sealed to 30 or so wives of all ages instead?

 

(I am suggesting that if you still have aproblem with it, it is plural marriage that is really your issue and not an age gap).

Edited April 26, 2015 by calmoriah

[Teancum]

Would those of you who take issue with Joseph Smith, a 38 year old marrying younger and older women have less of a problem if it was an 19 year old man who was sealed to 30 or so wives of all ages instead?

Yes. I have a problem with any powerful leader doing abberitional things while claiming God told them to do so.

[JLHPROF]

Yes. I have a problem with any powerful leader doing abberitional things while claiming God told them to do so.

 

Where was the abberation?  Outlawed polygamy came from the societies with the least connection to God.  Societies that God has chosen have always at least allowed for polygamy, commanded or not.  Societies that outlawed it were almost always the ones operating with the light of God to guide them.

[JLHPROF]

Although polygamy became a doctrine under Brigham Young, I think it is very significant that only Joseph practiced polyandry. As I see him, he was far more open to all kinds of love as divinely inspired. Women like Lucinda Morgan Harris and Prescindia Buell, who simultaneously remained loyal to their husbands and to Joseph, were very important to him. True, there were many younger "wives" of whom he clearly took advantage but alliances like those with Lucinda and Prescindia suggest a sort of polyamory that would have been anathema to the classical male abusers of women who characterized the heyday of polygamy in 19th century Utah. Had polyandry outlasted Joseph's life, it is conceivable that the later evolution of the LDS church would have been very different and far more egalitarian.

 

1. Joseph wasn't the only polyandrist in the eyes of the law.  Not even close.  In the eyes of God however...

2. Joseph didn't "take advantage" of his younger wives.  That is an opinion with no evidence.  His underage wives almost certainly never roomed with him.

3. They are wives, not "wives".

4. Polyandry was forbidden as part of D&C 132 (see verse 51).  It would never have continued in the manner you suggest.

[Tacenda]

1. Joseph wasn't the only polyandrist in the eyes of the law. Not even close. In the eyes of God however...

2. Joseph didn't "take advantage" of his younger wives. That is an opinion with no evidence. His underage wives almost certainly never roomed with him.I

3. They are wives, not "wives".

4. Polyandry was forbidden as part of D&C 132 (see verse 51). It would never have continued in the manner you suggest.

Michael needs to be enlightened, Brigham Young married already married women, and didn't Parley P. Pratt? Which turns out was his demise. Of course I didn't know any of this in the not too distant past either. Edited April 26, 2015 by Tacenda

[sunstoned]

Marrying teenagers was not big deal in the 19th century or in any other century prior.  Had you been raised in the 19th century, you probably would not see a big deal about it either. 

 

Perhaps Joseph did not live it correctly but how can I fault him.  It is not like he was raised with it and had plenty of living examples to show him the ropes.  Even though the scriptures speak of people living it, they don't provide an recipe to live it.  He was pioneer at this.  Of course he was going to make mistakes as that is how one learns.  I give Joseph as lot of room as he had so many issues to deal with.  It is easy to find fault with is actions 170 years after the fact while we sit on a chair not having to worry about the things he worried with on a daily basis.  If It was me instead of Joseph, I probably would have made many more mistakes than he did.  Joseph may not have lived it exactly like God intended but at least he tried. 

How about being honest and not lying?  JS did this repeatedly to cover up his polygamist actions.  That should have been a huge red flag to him and anyone else.  If you have to break basic commandments to make something work, maybe you should rethink what you are doing.  

 

Also, as statef up thread.  The way JS went about practicing polygamy was not in keeping with D&C 132.  The justifications I have read in this thread so far seem to start with the decision already made that JS was command to do what he did, and then work backwards from there twisting logic and making big assumptions to support a already made decision.  

[Teancum]

Where was the abberation?  Outlawed polygamy came from the societies with the least connection to God.  Societies that God has chosen have always at least allowed for polygamy, commanded or not.  Societies that outlawed it were almost always the ones operating with the light of God to guide them.

It is interesting that you sound like 19th century LDS leaders arguing agianst monogamy and its evils.

As noted, I beleive ancient polygamy was cultural and thqt humans long moved beyond it. Anciently and even in the wording of the Bible around it women are considered chattel and property. God had nothing to do with it. It was cultural and societies came up with reasons for their culture. By 1840 it was an abberiton. You view it is as such for everyone else. The only reason you accept it from JS is you believe God commanded him to do it.

Of course I will give you that you at least struggle with whether others who do this are acceptable as not. Most LDS don't go near that.

[carbon dioxide]

How about being honest and not lying?  JS did this repeatedly to cover up his polygamist actions.  That should have been a huge red flag to him and anyone else.

 

Perhaps if he could have practiced it openly without getting crap from people who hated the Mormons, he would not have to cover up anything.  I got one thing for people who demand honest and that is an adult like response to the honesty.  No flying off the handle.  React to it in a mature manner.  I don't think many in those days could handle the truth.  If one can't handle the truth, they probably don't deserve to hear it.  Given all the circumstances, I see no reason why I would have done anything differently if I was in his position.  But of course the more wise and righteous ones will judge Joseph thinking they would have done a better job.  My response to that is "Ok, you tell that to Joseph when you see him."

Edited April 26, 2015 by carbon dioxide

[carbon dioxide]

Would those of you who take issue with Joseph Smith, a 38 year old marrying younger and older women have less of a problem if it was an 19 year old man who was sealed to 30 or so wives of all ages instead?

 

(I am suggesting that if you still have aproblem with it, it is plural marriage that is really your issue and not an age gap).

Did not Joseph marry some older women as well.  I think one was in her 50s.  But that is ok.  She was a cougar. 

[carbon dioxide]

As noted, I beleive ancient polygamy was cultural and thqt humans long moved beyond it. Anciently and even in the wording of the Bible around it women are considered chattel and property. God had nothing to do with it.

 

 The prophet Nathan would strongly disagree with that.

[carbon dioxide]

Where was the abberation?  Outlawed polygamy came from the societies with the least connection to God.  Societies that God has chosen have always at least allowed for polygamy, commanded or not.  Societies that outlawed it were almost always the ones operating with the light of God to guide them.

The societies that have outlawed polygamy are pretty much in favor of premarital sex and other things.  In our society today a man can have multiple girlfriends and have kids with many women and its ok.  He just better not think about marrying them.  Now that is out of line.

[carbon dioxide]

Even though there is no express command in the Old Testament, it is clear in Jacob 2:30 where it does allude that God does command polygamy

 

30 For if I will, saith the Lord of Hosts, raise up seed unto me, I will command my people; otherwise they shall hearken unto these things.

 

So Jacob is saying that if God does require to raise up seed to him, he will COMMAND his people to practice polygamy.  The authorization to practice polygamy comes by his command.

[Teancum]

The prophet Nathan would strongly disagree with that.

Nathan is oft quote by LDS polygamy apologists. But the language used in the Bible that Nathan used is no different than a person who beleives all things come from God would use for anything they have. Nathan saying God gave David his wives was no different than saying God gave David his food or palaces or land or whatever. There is no divine sanction of polygamy and they were simply using the language of their culture.

[Teancum]

The societies that have outlawed polygamy are pretty much in favor of premarital sex and other things.  In our society today a man can have multiple girlfriends and have kids with many women and its ok.  He just better not think about marrying them.  Now that is out of line.

This again is a poor defense. If this is the case why doesn't th church practice plural marriage now? Well other than it is agains the law, But a polygamist in a nation where it is legal cannot be baptized.

But back to th poor defense. Really most people of morals and ethics don't think what you say is simply ok.

[JLHPROF]

Nathan is oft quote by LDS polygamy apologists. But the language used in the Bible that Nathan used is no different than a person who beleives all things come from God would use for anything they have. Nathan saying God gave David his wives was no different than saying God gave David his food or palaces or land or whatever. There is no divine sanction of polygamy and they were simply using the language of their culture.

 

And Nathan said to David, Thou art the man. Thus saith the LORD God of Israel, I anointed thee king over Israel, and I delivered thee out of the hand of Saul;

And I gave thee thy master's house, and thy master's wives into thy bosom, and gave thee the house of Israel and of Judah; and if that had been too little, I would moreover have given unto thee such and such things.

 

Sounds like a revelation from God to me.

But I suppose ANY revelation can be dismissed as man made if we don't agree with it.

Which makes religion a pointless endeavor.  I've seen the light.  God doesn't speak to man.  Maybe he doesn't exist.

Let's all go be atheists.

[JLHPROF]

The societies that have outlawed polygamy are pretty much in favor of premarital sex and other things.  In our society today a man can have multiple girlfriends and have kids with many women and its ok.  He just better not think about marrying them.  Now that is out of line.

 

It's true.  When I am looking at societal morality I find the polygamy acceptable societies follow the moral teachings of the Savior far more closely than those societies that have outlawed polygamy.  They usually lack most Christian morals.

[Teancum]

And Nathan said to David, Thou art the man. Thus saith the LORD God of Israel, I anointed thee king over Israel, and I delivered thee out of the hand of Saul;

And I gave thee thy master's house, and thy master's wives into thy bosom, and gave thee the house of Israel and of Judah; and if that had been too little, I would moreover have given unto thee such and such things.

 

Sounds like a revelation from God to me.

But I suppose ANY revelation can be dismissed as man made if we don't agree with it.

Which makes religion a pointless endeavor.  I've seen the light.  God doesn't speak to man.  Maybe he doesn't exist.

Let's all go be atheists.

I am not being snarky with you. Why start with me. And I read this as simply saying God gave you everything. And as noted from a culture that viewed women as property. He got HIS MASTER'S WIVES....

And there is revelation you don't accept. I assume you eat pork and don't stone sabbath breakers.

And yes it is likely God does not speak to man.

[Calm]

Did not Joseph marry some older women as well.  I think one was in her 50s.  But that is ok.  She was a cougar. 

Actually there are plenty who have problems with any plural marriage, it doesn't matter the age of the wife.  You have misread my question if you think I am suggesting that people think it is okay that he married older women than himself and only have problems with younger aged ones.

 

My issue is I think if people are upset about plural marriage, that too often the issue of age difference gets mixed up into it when it really should be separate. If they are able to set aside the presentism of the age difference, then there is at least a chance of pinpointing why plural marriage is problematic in their view and discussing that civilly and maybe even coming to some decent mutual conclusion even if there is a disagreement on how to apply  that conclusion (plural marriage would be acceptable under these conditions....one feels the conditions were fulfilled, another not for example).  If one jumps back and forth between age differences and plural marriage, it may cause some to dismiss discussion completely based on their seeing the problem as only resulting from presentism.

[Calm]

It's true.  When I am looking at societal morality I find the polygamy acceptable societies follow the moral teachings of the Savior far more closely...

How familiar are you with polygamous societies?  Have you lived among them and for how long if so?

Edited April 26, 2015 by calmoriah

[JLHPROF]

How familiar are you with polygamous societies?  Have you lived among them and for how long if so?

 

Funny. 

You know what I meant.

 

Abraham - polygamist, followed God

Jacob/Israel - polygamist, followed God

Moses & children of Israel - polygamy ok, God's chosen nation

David & Solomon - polygamists, God's chosen rulers until they abused polygamy

Christ and the Apostles - polygamy ok in society (according to Josephus)

Brother of Jared - probable polygamist, followed God

the list goes on...

 

Compare that to

Ancient Rome - polygamy outlawed, pagan Gods, killed Christians, often hedonistic, etc

Medieval "Christianity" - continued polygamy ban from Rome, corrupted Christ's gospel, fought holy wars, inquisition, etc

and as Carbon pointed out:

"In our society today a man can have multiple girlfriends and have kids with many women and its ok.  He just better not think about marrying them.  Now that is out of line." while atheism and SSM is on the rise.

 

If people can't see the parallels that's not my fault.

[Bobbieaware]

Actually there are plenty who have problems with any plural marriage, it doesn't matter the age of the wife. You have misread my question if you think I am suggesting that people think it is okay that he married older women than himself and only have problems with younger aged ones.

My issue is I think if people are upset about plural marriage, that too often the issue of age difference gets mixed up into it when it really should be separate. If they are able to set aside the presentism of the age difference, then there is at least a chance of pinpointing why plural marriage is problematic in their view and discussing that civilly and maybe even coming to some decent mutual conclusion even if there is a disagreement on how to apply that conclusion (plural marriage would be acceptable under these conditions....one feels the conditions were fulfilled, another not for example). If one jumps back and forth between age differences and plural marriage, it may cause some to dismiss discussion completely based on their seeing the problem as only resulting from presentism.

Exalted men and women of perfect holiness, humility, wisdom and charity would undoubtedly be able to successfully practice plural marriage and do so with great harmony, satisfaction and joy. But I believe the main reason why plural marriage is so distasteful to some LDS church members is because they lack the faith to be able to envision plural marriage as it would be practiced by perfect and perfectly unselfish beings, and because they lack faith in the perfecting power of God they can only imagine it as it would be practiced by fallen mortals who are jealous, selfish, immature and carnally-minded.

Edited April 26, 2015 by Bobbieaware

[Sleeper Cell]

Yes. I have a problem with any powerful leader doing abberitional things while claiming God told them to do so.

Actually. so do I.  Unless it turns out that God actually did tell him to do so.

[Calm]

Funny. 

You know what I meant.

 

Actually not, I seriously thought you were drawing a conclusion from having lived among polygamous societies today (not fundamentalists here in the US, but worldwide and I wasn't thinking about only the Middle East or the various repressive regimes there, but more developed and less controlling areas of the world) and contrasting the current ones to nonpolygamous ones.  Not having the experience and only hearing reports, I was wondering if you knew by firsthand experience.  It was Teancum's talk about society having moved beyond that and yet me knowing there were many current societies that had not so it is rather ethnocentric to assume our monogamous version is progression that had me focused on modern polygamy (non fundamentalist).

[ALarson]

Michael needs to be enlightened, Brigham Young married already married women, and didn't Parley P. Pratt? Which turns out was his demise. Of course I didn't know any of this in the not too distant past either.

Yes, Brigham Young had at least 8 polyandrous marriages (if I remember correctly) and Parley P. Pratt was murdered by the husband of his polyandrous wife.  I also didn't know about these until I began studying the topic more in detail, so it's understandable that Michael was not aware of others practicing polyandry.  I think that most (many?) members don't even know that Joseph practiced it.  But, more are learning he did from reading the recent essays.

 

I also believe that many can work through how Joseph lived polygamy even if it's a difficult issue for them, but learning about his polyandry is more troubling.