Senator Posted April 15, 2015 Posted April 15, 2015 The essays do nothing more than highlight information that was readily available before to those interested enough to seek it. Then there was really no need for the essays. A simple bibliography would have sufficed. 1
jackson20 Posted April 15, 2015 Posted April 15, 2015 I ask this in all sincerity. After watching the video " Top 10 Mormon Problems Explained" youtube. Google it. I am shocked at the findings that can be shown in the Churches own history recordings. I have listened to this video CAREFULLY. How can anyone possibly believe Joseph Smith was a prophet when it is easily proved he lied,manipulated and deceived his followers. In my opinion this is something that will not be resolved by praying about it.....people must use their God given brains, common sense and history to find what is the truth.
Scott Lloyd Posted April 15, 2015 Author Posted April 15, 2015 Scott, the link you're giving is discussing Helen Mar Kimball....was that what you meant to link to? My question was about polyandry.Sorry. I'm taking a lot of hits just now. I feel like Errol Flynn in a sword fighting scene. Here's one on polyandry.
Scott Lloyd Posted April 15, 2015 Author Posted April 15, 2015 I think that some sins are worse in that they are more difficult to make restitution for, but all sin makes one impure. If we consult Jesus on the matter I think we will find that both put us in an equally precarious position21 ¶Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment:22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.I realize that some theologians argue that in God's eyes, one sin is just as bad as another. That sounds more like Protestant dogma to me that the theology of the Church of Jesus Christ. But I don't have time to argue that just now.
Scott Lloyd Posted April 15, 2015 Author Posted April 15, 2015 Where does it discuss polyandry on that page? Where does it discuss where polyandry is included in Section 132? Those are my questions. If that's all you have, I'll take that as you admitting polyandry is not in Section 132 and that Joseph Smith was not commanded to marry other men's wives.Sorry. I've given you a separate link now on polyandry.
Coreyb Posted April 15, 2015 Posted April 15, 2015 You're arguing semantics. I don't have time for your game playing. Not with the gang attack I'm fending off just now.Drawing a difference between impurity and imperfection in any sense that can be understood in the abstract yet pulled into the reality of ones personal actions is a semantic argument. If I have two cups of distilled water and I add one grain of dirt to one and one table spoon of dirt to the other are they not both impure? Are they not both imperfect?Also, I can't speak for the others but I am not attacking you. If we were speaking in person we could shake hands, bro hug and discuss this over pretzels and alcohol free beer 2
Senator Posted April 15, 2015 Posted April 15, 2015 I ask this in all sincerity. After watching the video " Top 10 Mormon Problems Explained" youtube. Google it. I am shocked at the findings that can be shown in the Churches own history recordings. I have listened to this video CAREFULLY. How can anyone possibly believe Joseph Smith was a prophet when it is easily proved he lied,manipulated and deceived his followers. In my opinion this is something that will not be resolved by praying about it.....people must use their God given brains, common sense and history to find what is the truth. "easily proved"? I see your new here. It's going to be an eye opening experience for you.
stemelbow Posted April 15, 2015 Posted April 15, 2015 I ask this in all sincerity. After watching the video " Top 10 Mormon Problems Explained" youtube. Google it. I am shocked at the findings that can be shown in the Churches own history recordings. I have listened to this video CAREFULLY. How can anyone possibly believe Joseph Smith was a prophet when it is easily proved he lied,manipulated and deceived his followers. In my opinion this is something that will not be resolved by praying about it.....people must use their God given brains, common sense and history to find what is the truth. Everyone in existence has lied. It's a shame we have, but we have. That Joseph lied too, doesn't hurt so much because it would be expected.
Scott Lloyd Posted April 15, 2015 Author Posted April 15, 2015 I ask this in all sincerity. After watching the video " Top 10 Mormon Problems Explained" youtube. Google it. I am shocked at the findings that can be shown in the Churches own history recordings. I have listened to this video CAREFULLY. How can anyone possibly believe Joseph Smith was a prophet when it is easily proved he lied,manipulated and deceived his followers. In my opinion this is something that will not be resolved by praying about it.....people must use their God given brains, common sense and history to find what is the truth.An anti-Mormon website would have nasty things to say about Joseph Smith and the Church of Jesus Christ? How shocking!
Scott Lloyd Posted April 15, 2015 Author Posted April 15, 2015 Then there was really no need for the essays. A simple bibliography would have sufficed.Perhaps. There seemed to be a demand for the essays, and the Church obligingly provided them.
JulieM Posted April 15, 2015 Posted April 15, 2015 (edited) "easily proved"?I see your new here. It's going to be an eye opening experience for you.I think that Joseph Smith lied and deceived his followers (including Emma) when it came to polygamy, can be easily proven. What people debate is why he did this. Edited April 15, 2015 by JulieM 3
JLHPROF Posted April 15, 2015 Posted April 15, 2015 I think that Joseph Smith lied and deceived his followers (including Emma) when it came to polygamy, can be easily proven. What people debate is why he did this. And if the answer was "God commanded him to" ?
stemelbow Posted April 15, 2015 Posted April 15, 2015 And if the answer was "God commanded him to" ? Then God commanded him to lie. Doesn't take away the lie, though. What if God commanded him to disclose all to Emma and he did not?
Scott Lloyd Posted April 15, 2015 Author Posted April 15, 2015 It's the crux of what we were talking about, that started this whole thing to me. But, you are dealing with a lot of responses, and others are more worth responding to than me, so have at it.But if it dies down, please take me into consideration. I'm not putting a time limit on whether or not you want to discuss these ideas further.Sorry I appeared to blow you off. I was putting out a lot of fires. I agree that we are made pure through the Atonement of Christ. What I meant was that when the Lord has a sacred work for someone to accomplish, He tends to look for certain standards of worthiness, commitment, faithfulness, spiritual receptivity, etc. Otherwise, why would missionaries be required to measure up to standards of moral cleanliness, Church activity, etc., before being called to serve?
Senator Posted April 15, 2015 Posted April 15, 2015 And if the answer was "God commanded him to" ? Then Warren Jeffs and the Lafferty brothers become viable. 2
Scott Lloyd Posted April 15, 2015 Author Posted April 15, 2015 I think that Joseph Smith lied and deceived his followers (including Emma) when it came to polygamy, can be easily proven. What people debate is why he did this.I think you and others would do well to consider this essay by Dr. Gregory Smith.
Scott Lloyd Posted April 15, 2015 Author Posted April 15, 2015 Then God commanded him to lie. Doesn't take away the lie, though.What if God commanded him to disclose all to Emma and he did not?Please read and ponder this essay by Dr. Gregory Smith.
Scott Lloyd Posted April 15, 2015 Author Posted April 15, 2015 Then Warren Jeffs and the Lafferty brothers become viable.Only if the claim were true -- which, in their case, it would not be.
Scott Lloyd Posted April 15, 2015 Author Posted April 15, 2015 Drawing a difference between impurity and imperfection in any sense that can be understood in the abstract yet pulled into the reality of ones personal actions is a semantic argument. If I have two cups of distilled water and I add one grain of dirt to one and one table spoon of dirt to the other are they not both impure? Are they not both imperfect?Also, I can't speak for the others but I am not attacking you. If we were speaking in person we could shake hands, bro hug and discuss this over pretzels and alcohol free beer Please see my post #289, my response to stemelbow on this point. I do think it's a matter of semantics.
ALarson Posted April 15, 2015 Posted April 15, 2015 Sorry. I'm taking a lot of hits just now. I feel like Errol Flynn in a sword fighting scene. Here's one on polyandry.Thanks, Scott. I looked at the link and even followed links to other information. I still see nothing where polyandry was included in D&C 132 as a commandment for Joseph to live it. I think I'll just start another thread about this rather than derail this one as you do definitely have your hands full here! Thanks again.
Scott Lloyd Posted April 15, 2015 Author Posted April 15, 2015 Thanks, Scott. I looked at the link and even followed links to other information. I still see nothing where polyandry was included in D&C 132 as a commandment for Joseph to live it. I think I'll just start another thread about this rather than derail this one as you do definitely have your hands full here! Thanks again.I never said there was anything in D&C 132 about it. But your question assumes a premise that I have never accepted; that to be valid, every particle of revelation ever received by a prophet must be written down and published.
Teancum Posted April 15, 2015 Posted April 15, 2015 The essays do nothing more than highlight information that was readily available before to those interested enough to seek it. At least before the internet age this is certainly a stretch. I know though that this is a common theme apologists use to marginalize those who claim they were surprised by this, that or some other thing.
Senator Posted April 15, 2015 Posted April 15, 2015 (edited) Only if the claim were true -- which, in their case, it would not be.Exactly Which is why I'm never satisfied with the answer, "because God commanded it" There are both true prophets and false prophets. It takes a lot of mental and spiritual footwork to determine which is which. Edited April 15, 2015 by Senator
JLHPROF Posted April 15, 2015 Posted April 15, 2015 Then Warren Jeffs and the Lafferty brothers become viable. Only if the claim were true -- which, in their case, it would not be. Exactly.Joseph made mistakes. Joseph sinned. Joseph needed the atonement.But none of his sins were serious enough for him to fall or lose his office. The Church is inseparably connected to the life of Joseph Smith. Start believing that there was a point where he went his own way and lost favor with God, and the tapestry of the restored gospel will begin to unravel in your mind. It's unavoidable in my opinion. To my belief he had his calling and election made sure - that means he was approved and accepted by the Savior (and his Father). It also means he was incapable of falling from exaltation by any means other than the unpardonable sin. I have personal beliefs about Joseph that go further than most on this board could ever accept, that are considered undoctrinal even by the Church. But they are mine and they don't allow for the greatly flawed Joseph that others see.
Scott Lloyd Posted April 15, 2015 Author Posted April 15, 2015 Exactly Which is why I'm never satisfied with the answer, "because God commanded it" There are both true prophets and false prophets. It take a lot of mental and spiritual footwork to determine which is which.So the real problem you need to solve for yourself is to determine whether the Book of Mormon is true and that Joseph Smith was a Prophet of God. See Moroni 10:3-5.
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