Scott Lloyd Posted April 15, 2015 Author Posted April 15, 2015 I'll just say I think polygamy was a mistake and leave it at that. And I'll just say that the Church's survival into and thriving during the 20th century and beyond is due in part to the sacrifice of early Church members in obeying the commandment to practice plurality of wives. 1
stemelbow Posted April 15, 2015 Posted April 15, 2015 And I'll just say that the Church's survival into and thriving during the 20th century and beyond is due in part to the sacrifice of early Church members in obeying the commandment to practice plurality of wives. But then I'll add, it could have survived and actually thrived much better without the practice, but we'll never know.
HappyJackWagon Posted April 15, 2015 Posted April 15, 2015 "I am ok with how Joseph Smith lived it. Brigham Young did not have a first wife like Emma who resisted it." Poor Emma. She gets no respect. Obviously it was her fault for being upset and not approving of her husband's extra-marital (pun intended) affairs when she found out after the fact, or as in Fanny's case, during the fact.
JulieM Posted April 15, 2015 Posted April 15, 2015 I don't think any of us would have done much better than Joseph Smith did if we were in his position.Are you serious? Marrying teenagers and taking other men's wives? You would have done that?If so, wow. 1
sethpayne Posted April 15, 2015 Posted April 15, 2015 And I'll just say that the Church's survival into and thriving during the 20th century and beyond is due in part to the sacrifice of early Church members in obeying the commandment to practice plurality of wives. And I'll just say that I agree with Grey and believe that polygamy was a monumental mistake that nearly destroyed the Church. 3
carbon dioxide Posted April 15, 2015 Posted April 15, 2015 I'll just say I think polygamy was a mistake and leave it at that. I may not understand all the reasons for it but If I believe God commanded it, then it was not a mistake at least of God's end. It is clear to me that those who lived in the 19th century believed God commanded it. The fact that mistakes were done by those who practice it has no reflection on the commandment itself. Polygamy in my estimation would be hard to live and mistakes would occur. It was unavoidable.
JulieM Posted April 15, 2015 Posted April 15, 2015 But then I'll add, it could have survived and actually thrived much better without the practice, but we'll never know.I've read that there would have been more children born if the women hadn't been in polygamous relationships. Is that true?
JLHPROF Posted April 15, 2015 Posted April 15, 2015 I'll just say I think polygamy was a mistake and leave it at that. But then I'll add, it could have survived and actually thrived much better without the practice, but we'll never know. And I'll state that we are looking at an eternal principle based on mortal perspectives. No wonder we get it wrong. 1
carbon dioxide Posted April 15, 2015 Posted April 15, 2015 (edited) "I am ok with how Joseph Smith lived it. Brigham Young did not have a first wife like Emma who resisted it."Poor Emma. She gets no respect. Obviously it was her fault for being upset and not approving of her husband's extra-marital (pun intended) affairs when she found out after the fact, or as in Fanny's case, during the fact.Emma gets my respect. I understand that it was hard for her. BUT that fact that it was hard for her does not excuse Joseph for not following the commandment of God. Joseph is given a choice. Follow God's command and not make Emma happy or make Emma happy and not follow God's command. We all have to choose for ourselves how much we love God and whether we place things before God. Edited April 15, 2015 by carbon dioxide 1
Scott Lloyd Posted April 15, 2015 Author Posted April 15, 2015 (edited) Are you serious? Marrying teenagers and taking other men's wives? You would have done that?If so, wow.Have you looked at any of the links I gave here? Or are you determined to stick our fingers in your ears and hum? And then turn around and complain again and again about how you've been kept in the dark? Edited April 15, 2015 by Scott Lloyd
HappyJackWagon Posted April 15, 2015 Posted April 15, 2015 I may not understand all the reasons for it but If I believe God commanded it, then it was not a mistake at least of God's end. It is clear to me that those who lived in the 19th century believed God commanded it. The fact that mistakes were done by those who practice it has no reflection on the commandment itself. Polygamy in my estimation would be hard to live and mistakes would occur. It was unavoidable. IF I believe God didn't command it, then it was a monumental mistake whether people believed it was of God or not, hence the word "mistake". In my view D&C 132, which was added some 30+ years after Joseph's death, should be removed from the canon. Until then, every fundamentalist polygamist group has a better understanding and practice of the scripture than our church. So considering that I refuse to be a fundamentalist polygamist then I'd like to have the threat of its sanction removed.
JLHPROF Posted April 15, 2015 Posted April 15, 2015 Are you serious? Marrying teenagers and taking other men's wives? You would have done that?If so, wow. You would have told God "NO!" and stamped your foot when he issued a command?
Scott Lloyd Posted April 15, 2015 Author Posted April 15, 2015 (edited) I've read that there would have been more children born if the women hadn't been in polygamous relationships. Is that true?Raw population figures are not helpful to the discussion. What matters is that plural marriage made for an increased number of households for children to be born into in which both parents were faithful and committed to the teachings of the Church and are apt to transmit those values and beliefs to their offspring. Edited April 15, 2015 by Scott Lloyd
Scott Lloyd Posted April 15, 2015 Author Posted April 15, 2015 IF I believe God didn't command it, then it was a monumental mistake whether people believed it was of God or not, hence the word "mistake".Then the fundamental problem you have to solve for yourself is determining whether or not Joseph was a prophet. See Moroni 10:3-5.
Scott Lloyd Posted April 15, 2015 Author Posted April 15, 2015 And I'll just say that I agree with Grey and believe that polygamy was a monumental mistake that nearly destroyed the Church.So the problem you have to solve for yourself is whether or not Joseph was a prophet who received divine revelation.
HappyJackWagon Posted April 15, 2015 Posted April 15, 2015 Emma gets my respect. I understand that it was hard for her. BUT that fact that it was hard for her does not excuse Joseph for not following the commandment of God. Joseph is given a choice. Follow God's command and not make Emma happy or make Emma happy and not follow God's command. We all have to choose for ourselves how much we love God and whether we place things before God. Joseph had a choice between how much he loved his wife and how much he loved other men's wives. (ba dum ching)
Scott Lloyd Posted April 15, 2015 Author Posted April 15, 2015 Joseph had a choice between how much he loved his wife and how much he loved other men's wives. (ba dum ching) Simplistic and ill-informed bomb throwing. 1
carbon dioxide Posted April 15, 2015 Posted April 15, 2015 (edited) IF I believe God didn't command it, then it was a monumental mistake whether people believed it was of God or not, hence the word "mistake".In my view D&C 132, which was added some 30+ years after Joseph's death, should be removed from the canon. Until then, every fundamentalist polygamist group has a better understanding and practice of the scripture than our church. So considering that I refuse to be a fundamentalist polygamist then I'd like to have the threat of its sanction removed.I personally don't care when something was added. Heck how long did it take for the Gospel of Luke to be added to the canon or any book? Now if D&C 132 is a forgery and Joseph Smith did not receive it, I am totally with you. I don't care what fundamentalists do. That should not be a concern to any of us. There are always some people that are willing to take things further than they should. I accept Section 132 and I have decided to not join them. So one can be LDS, accept 132 and not join the fundamentalist Church. But you can of course choose to do whatever you believe is right for you. THere are a lot of parts in the scriptures that do not make me comfortable. I would like to proclaim they are mistakes because they bug me. I perhaps might want them removed. But perhaps the problem is not the scriptures but me. Edited April 15, 2015 by carbon dioxide
HappyJackWagon Posted April 15, 2015 Posted April 15, 2015 Then the fundamental problem you have to solve for yourself is determining whether or not Joseph was a prophet. See Moroni 10:3-5. Did you seriously just quote Moroni's promise? OR I have the fundamental problem of determining which of Joseph's teachings and practices were instituted of God and which were part of his fallible understanding, teaching, and practice. A prophet can be a prophet and still be wrong in some things...unless of course he's infallible.
Scott Lloyd Posted April 15, 2015 Author Posted April 15, 2015 But then I'll add, it could have survived and actually thrived much better without the practice, but we'll never know.Not without a critical mass of members to withstand the persecution and to spread the gospel globally. Plural marriage facilitated that critical mass into the second and third generations.
carbon dioxide Posted April 15, 2015 Posted April 15, 2015 Joseph had a choice between how much he loved his wife and how much he loved other men's wives. (ba dum ching) That is one way to look at it but not the only way.
Scott Lloyd Posted April 15, 2015 Author Posted April 15, 2015 Did you seriously just quote Moroni's promise?OR I have the fundamental problem of determining which of Joseph's teachings and practices were instituted of God and which were part of his fallible understanding, teaching, and practice. A prophet can be a prophet and still be wrong in some things...unless of course he's infallible.Joseph was not infallible. But he didn't fall with respect to receiving and obeying the commandment of God in this matter.
JulieM Posted April 15, 2015 Posted April 15, 2015 You would have told God "NO!" and stamped your foot when he issued a command?Well you see, I don't believe God would command such a thing. I am in the camp that believes polygamy was wrong and a mistake. From those I've discussed the essays with, we all agree on that point. God did not command Abraham to live polygamy either if I remember correctly. 1
HappyJackWagon Posted April 15, 2015 Posted April 15, 2015 Joseph was not infallible. But he didn't fall with respect to receiving and obeying the commandment of God in this matter. So you have a perfect understanding of how Joseph was fallible and how he wasn't? I'm impressed.
carbon dioxide Posted April 15, 2015 Posted April 15, 2015 (edited) Did you seriously just quote Moroni's promise?OR I have the fundamental problem of determining which of Joseph's teachings and practices were instituted of God and which were part of his fallible understanding, teaching, and practice. A prophet can be a prophet and still be wrong in some things...unless of course he's infallible.Yes, Prophets can be wrong. But how many prophets does it take before one decides, ok maybe they are not wrong? Two or three witnesses might be a starter. (But then again, perhaps Paul is wrong there. Perhaps its 50 witnesses. ) Edited April 15, 2015 by carbon dioxide 1
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