Is The Church Ashamed Of The Prophet Joseph Smith?

[Scott Lloyd]

What makes you think he was "darn near close" to perfection?

What makes you conclude otherwise?

[Scott Lloyd]

he could very well have been as close to perfect as any single person ever was on the planet, save Jesus only. But you nor I could ever know that--well at least unless or until God tells us. I don't think, scripturally, close to perfect counts. That's why the atonement is for all. All fall short, after all. Whether one sins one less time then another, is not really our place to determine.

But if you like to tell yourself things you simply could not possibly be able to reasonably conclude, so be it.

Here I will express a sentiment I have seen Pahoran express on occasion: Imperfect as Joseph was, he was superior to his critics --then and now -- by quantum measures.

Edited April 15, 2015 by Scott Lloyd

[Gray]

What makes you conclude otherwise?

 

I guess I'm skeptical that any human being would be even close to perfection. I have no reason to think that any mortal human being has ever gotten close. That doesn't seem realistic. 

 

Scratch that - every baby is perfect. But I'm skeptical about adults. 

[stemelbow]

No, I won't concede that.

 

Acknowledging that an individual is imperfect is not the same thing as believing heinous and unfair accusations that are leveled at him. You are drawing a false dichotomy.

Well good, since I did not draw that dichotomy. You accused anyone of accusing Joseph of wrongdoing as those who have cultivated stony ground. You mentioned nothing of heinous and unfair accusations in your accusation. you did throw in a "too quick" comment, which I suspect you intend to say that Joseph did do bad things, but some of the things people have accused him of might not have really happened and those who accuse him of doing those things that might not have happened are those who have cultivated stony ground. But if that be the case, we're just playing around in the area of how imperfect Joseph was, which is kinda silly and meaningless. Was he imperfect? Sure was. Is anyone who acknowledges that he did something wrong automatically one who has cultivated stony ground? Surely not.

I welcome any correction you feel necessary.

 

In many cases, yes, that's what happens.

 

For example, those who claim they were never informed that Joseph practiced plural marriage and are driven into a tailspin when they found out about it. Did they never read the Doctrine and Covenants? Did they never bother to open a book on Church history? Why is it seemingly OK with them that Brigham Young was a polygamist but not Joseph? And why don't they look into the some of the details that can be known about the Prophet's teaching and practice of it before jumping to conclusions about his character and decency?

I don't know, Scott. It's kinda simple. It's not that they didn't know Joseph practiced polygamy, perhaps, but that he married teenagers, other men's wives, women while their husbands were out of town...stuff like that is what is usually what seems to start people down the road of disbelieving.

 

I think you are reading things into what he said. He was calling for a seeking of the broader view. Any criticism that fails to contemplate that is neither moderate nor measured.

hmm...

To be securely rooted in the gospel, we must be moderate and measured in criticism and seek always for the broader view of the majestic work of God

He said we must be moderate in measured in criticism. I agree. That's not reading into what he said.

[stemelbow]

Here I will express a sentiment I have seen Pahoran express on occasion: Imperfect as Joseph was, he was superior to his critics --then and now -- by quantum measures.

But that's just boastfully stating your opinion. Neither you nor Pahoran really know. But your opinion is noted.

[Coreyb]

No Joseph wasn't perfect. Only Christ was perfect.

But Joseph was darn near close. Any things he did wrong were minor in my opinion, like when we lose our temper in traffic kind of minor.

Those who accuse Joseph of major sin may fall into the stony ground category.

I respect your opinion about him, but what would be wrong with concluding that he was far from perfect and possibly guilty or at least capable of major sins, yet still called of God and overall successful in his prophetic mission? Cuz that's what I think, and I don't think I'm an apostate Edited April 15, 2015 by Coreyb

[Scott Lloyd]

What is the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints to do now?? 

I can't make sense of this question. Do about what?

 

There are some questions about Joseph Smith and so one does see that changes are seemingly to be more mainstream in the way of trying to take the church back to the teachings of Christ while still attributing a restoration to Joseph Smith. 

 

The Church has never departed from the teachings of Christ. Jesus Christ called Joseph Smith and commissioned him as the Prophet of the Restoration. Joseph testified and taught of Christ.

 

 

I don't envy the church in their quest to maintain an equal stance to the gospel prophets and revelation.  Why not just be called the Mormons..

 

We call it the Church of Jesus Christ because of the commandment and reasoning Christ himself gave as recorded in the Book of Mormon:

 

7 Therefore, whatsoever ye shall do, ye shall do it in my name; therefore ye shall call the church in my name; and ye shall call upon the Father in my name that he will bless the church for my sake.

 8 And how be it ^amy ^bchurch save it be called in my name? For if a church be called in Moses’ name then it be Moses’ church; or if it be called in the name of a man then it be the church of a man; but if it be called in my name then it is my church, if it so be that they are built upon my gospel.

 9 Verily I say unto you, that ye are built upon my gospel; therefore ye shall call whatsoever things ye do call, in my name; therefore if ye call upon the Father, for the church, if it be in my name the Father will hear you;

 10 And if it so be that the church is built upon my gospel then will the Father show forth his own works in it.

 

 

 

(3 Nephi 27:8-10)

 

if the Book of Mormon is important and true..and restoration was ordained to be of Joseph Smith..then be who you are.

 

Who we are is members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, the Church that Christ Himself founded and that He directed be called in His name.

[HappyJackWagon]

"I don't want you to think I am very righteous, for I am not very righteous." JS Jr.

 

Maybe we should just take him at his word that he wasn't very righteous.

 

 

 

JLHPROF, on 15 Apr 2015 - 11:11 AM, said:

No Joseph wasn't perfect.  Only Christ was perfect.
But Joseph was darn near close.  Any things he did wrong were minor in my opinion, like when we lose our temper in traffic kind of minor.

 

Comparing coersion, marital deceptions and infidelity to losing our temper in traffic is pretty pathetic.

[ALarson]

I don't know, Scott. It's kinda simple. It's not that they didn't know Joseph practiced polygamy, perhaps, but that he married teenagers, other men's wives, women while their husbands were out of town...stuff like that is what is usually what seems to start people down the road of disbelieving. 

I agree.  It's just a fact that members are learning more of the details regarding how Joseph practiced polygamy from the essays.  Then add to that, they learn about his polyandry (which even fewer members knew about) and it's very upsetting for many.

 

People can stomp their feet and blame the members for not knowing these details before they read the essays, but it doesn't change the fact that many (most?) members are learning about these for the first time.  

[Scott Lloyd]

I respect your opinion about him, but what would be wrong with concluding that he was far from perfect and possibly guilty or at least capable of major sins, yet still called of God and overall successful in his prophetic mission? Cuz that's what I think, and I don't think I'm an apostate

It makes no sense that the Lord would choose an impure vessel (not imperfect, but impure) for such a sacred work as as bringing forth the latter-day Restoration of the gospel with all the many and assorted sublime tasks that are entailed thereby.

[HappyJackWagon]

It makes no sense that the Lord would choose an impure vessel (not imperfect, but impure) for such a sacred work as as bringing forth the latter-day Restoration of the gospel with all the many and assorted sublime tasks that are entailed thereby.

Impure only to our understanding. Maybe we don't understand worthiness as well as we think we do.

[Scott Lloyd]

"I don't want you to think I am very righteous, for I am not very righteous." JS Jr.

 

Maybe we should just take him at his word that he wasn't very righteous.

 

Maybe you should provide a citation or link for that quote so we can evaluate it in context.

 

Comparing coersion, marital deceptions and infidelity to losing our temper in traffic is pretty pathetic.

 

Throwing out gross accusations such as this a priori without considering context is pretty pathetic.

[Scott Lloyd]

Impure only to our understanding. Maybe we don't understand worthiness as well as we think we do.

I've pretty well come to that conclusion about you, at least.

[Scott Lloyd]

I agree.  It's just a fact that members are learning more of the details regarding how Joseph practiced polygamy from the essays.  Then add to that, they learn about his polyandry (which even fewer members knew about) and it's very upsetting for many.

 

People can stomp their feet and blame the members for not knowing these details before they read the essays, but it doesn't change the fact that many (most?) members are learning about these for the first time.  

So they're taking (and reacting to) a keyhole view of Church history, to apply Elder Oaks's analogy.

 

People can stomp their feet and blame the Church, but it's still a keyhole view.

Edited April 15, 2015 by Scott Lloyd

[Coreyb]

It makes no sense that the Lord would choose an impure vessel (not imperfect, but impure) for such a sacred work as as bringing forth the latter-day Restoration of the gospel with all the many and assorted sublime tasks that are entailed thereby.

Then it would follow that it makes no sense that God would choose impure vessels ( not imperfect but impure) like you and I to ultimately hand off a restored celestialized earth to, and Eternal lives to create worlds without end.

Edited April 15, 2015 by Coreyb

[JulieM]

It makes no sense that the Lord would choose an impure vessel (not imperfect, but impure) for such a sacred work as as bringing forth the latter-day Restoration of the gospel with all the many and assorted sublime tasks that are entailed thereby.

And that's exactly one of the reasons some members are struggling after learning the truth or details about Joseph Smith and his polygamy, marrying other men's wives and so on. Many had thought of him as being next to Christ prior to this. And please don't put the blame on members for feeling this way as too many now do and for good reason if you review lessons and talks from the leaders on Joseph Smith.

[HappyJackWagon]

Maybe you should provide a citation or link for that quote so we can evaluate it in context.

 

Throwing out gross accusations such as this a priori without considering context is pretty pathetic.

Discourse, 21 May 1843

President Joseph Smith

President of the Church

(History of the Church, 5:401-403)

 

There you go, Scott!

[Scott Lloyd]

And that's exactly one of the reasons some members are struggling after learning the truth or details about Joseph Smith and his polygamy, marrying other men's wives and so on. Many had thought of him as being next to Christ prior to this. And please don't put the blame on members for feeling this way as too many now do and for good reason if you review lessons and talks from the leaders on Joseph Smith.

I'm saying that there are other things to be considered before jumping to the conclusion that the Prophet was guilty of wrongdoing. That one needs to pay the price of learning and study.

 

Otherwise, one is a victim of his own keyhole view.

 

Edited to add:

 

Here's a good place to start.

Edited April 15, 2015 by Scott Lloyd

[stemelbow]

It makes no sense that the Lord would choose an impure vessel (not imperfect, but impure) for such a sacred work as as bringing forth the latter-day Restoration of the gospel with all the many and assorted sublime tasks that are entailed thereby.

We're all impure and yet, imperfect oddly enough. It is only by Christ and His righteousness that pureness ever comes to any of us. it matters not the extent of the impurities in us, for pureness to come, save for possibly a couple of exceptions.

[HappyJackWagon]

So they're taking (and reacting to) a keyhole view of Church history, to apply Elder Oaks's analogy.

 

People can stomp their feet and blame the Church, but it's still a keyhole view.

We all have a keyhole view. This is just another way of saying we all have different perspectives or view things through our own paradigms. Of course we do. It's inescapable. We can try to alter our perspective but even if we're successful we're still viewing the world or the church through our own perspective.

[Scott Lloyd]

 

Discourse, 21 May 1843

President Joseph Smith

President of the Church

(History of the Church, 5:401-403)

 

There you go, Scott!

 

Do you have a link?

 

Or are you reluctant to disclose that you picked it up from an anti-Mormon website?

[stemelbow]

I'm saying that there are other things to be considered before jumping to the conclusion that the Prophet was guilty of wrongdoing.

That's your mixed message again, Scott. Was Joseph guilty of wrongdoing, thus imperfect, or was he not ever guilty of doing any wrong and perfect?

[ALarson]

I'm saying that there are other things to be considered before jumping to the conclusion that the Prophet was guilty of wrongdoing. That one needs to pay the price of learning and study.

 

Otherwise, one is a victim of his own keyhole view.

You do know that the same can be said of you, don't you? (Having a keyhole view.)

 

What things would you like members to consider when learning that Joseph Smith married other men's wives when these men were active members of the church and could have been sealed to their own wives?

 

Where is Section 132 does it state polyandry of this sort is righteous and commanded by God?

Edited April 15, 2015 by ALarson

[Scott Lloyd]

We're all impure and yet, imperfect oddly enough. It is only by Christ and His righteousness that pureness ever comes to any of us. it matters not the extent of the impurities in us, for pureness to come, save for possibly a couple of exceptions.

I think you understand what I mean in drawing a distinction between impurity and imperfection.

[Scott Lloyd]

That's your mixed message again, Scott. Was Joseph guilty of wrongdoing, thus imperfect, or was he not ever guilty of doing any wrong and perfect?

Look at it my statement in context. I meant guilty of wrongdoing in the heinous things people here are accusing him of.

 

Being guilty of levity or joviality (see Joseph Smith -- History) is a far different matter than infidelity, deception, gross sexual sin, etc.