Is The Church Ashamed Of The Prophet Joseph Smith?

[stemelbow]

So the real problem you need to solve for yourself is to determine whether the Book of Mormon is true and that Joseph Smith was a Prophet of God.

 

See Moroni 10:3-5.

That won't say anything about whether God commanded Joseph to lie to Emma, of course.

[Scott Lloyd]

Exactly.

Joseph made mistakes.  Joseph sinned.  Joseph needed the atonement.

But none of his sins were serious enough for him to fall or lose his office.  The Church is inseparably connected to the life of Joseph Smith.  Start believing that there was a point where he went his own way and lost favor with God, and the tapestry of the restored gospel will begin to unravel in your mind.  It's unavoidable in my opinion.

 

To my belief he had his calling and election made sure - that means he was approved and accepted by the Savior (and his Father).  It also means he was incapable of falling from exaltation by any means other than the unpardonable sin.

 

I have personal beliefs about Joseph that go further than most on this board could ever accept, that are considered undoctrinal even by the Church.   But they are mine and they don't allow for the greatly flawed Joseph that others see.

My orthodox beliefs are enough all by themselves to preclude "the greatly flawed Joseph that others see."

[Teancum]

Perhaps.

 

There seemed to be a demand for the essays, and the Church obligingly provided them.

 

Yes. Once forced into it due to the new information age.  Had that not occurred they never ever would have published these.  Obliged is a nice spin on it though.

[Scott Lloyd]

That won't say anything about whether God commanded Joseph to lie to Emma, of course.

It has a great deal to say about whether Joseph was a clean and worthy vessel chosen by God. And that should be enough to prompt you to re-examine any nasty conclusions you have come to about Joseph's character.

[Scott Lloyd]

Yes. Once forced into it due to the new information age.  Had that not occurred they never ever would have published these.  Obliged is a nice spin on it though.

I didn't say "obliged." I said "obligingly."

 

And I disagree the Church was "forced into it." It was an act of compassion to accommodate those who are victimized by their own myopic outlook.

Edited April 15, 2015 by Scott Lloyd

[ALarson]

I never said there was anything in D&C 132 about it.

 

But your question assumes a premise that I have never accepted; that to be valid, every particle of revelation ever received by a prophet must be written down and published.

I would think that something as important as taking another man's wife for you own, would be recorded (the commandment or reasons for doing so).

Especially since Brigham Young lived polyandry too.  I'm not aware of any others living it other than Parley P. Pratt, but they were following what Joseph did (I assume).

 

I started a new thread on this though, Scott, as I didn't want to derail this one.

[Senator]

So the real problem you need to solve for yourself is to determine whether the Book of Mormon is true and that Joseph Smith was a Prophet of God.

 

See Moroni 10:3-5.

whoa......not sure where that came from.

 

Why do you suppose I haven't already determined such?

[stemelbow]

It has a great deal to say about whether Joseph was a clean and worthy vessel chosen by God. And that should be enough to prompt you to re-examine any nasty conclusions you have come to about Joseph's character.

Don't know what you're talking about, Scott. I accept Joseph was cleansed through Christ, just like others. I hold no nasty conclusions about his character.

[Scott Lloyd]

whoa......not sure where that came from.

 

Why do you suppose I haven't already determined such?

Because your comment seemed to reflect doubt or disbelief that Joseph was a prophet who received revelation from God.

Edited April 15, 2015 by Scott Lloyd

[Scott Lloyd]

Don't know what you're talking about, Scott. I accept Joseph was cleansed through Christ, just like others. I hold no nasty conclusions about his character.

Notwithstanding your repetitive accusations about him "lying to Emma" and such?

[Senator]

Because your comment seemed to reflect doubt or disbelief that Joseph was a prophet who received revelation from God.

That was not my intent.

 

Perhaps I was unclcear, or you missread me.

[ALarson]

Notwithstanding your repetitive accusations about him "lying to Emma" and such?

Are you saying that he didn't lie to Emma about many of his marriages?  That you don't believe Joseph married girls and women behind her back?

 

I honestly believe this is one of the main reasons members are ok with how Brigham Young lived polygamy vs. how Joseph did.

[Scott Lloyd]

I would think that something as important as taking another man's wife for you own, would be recorded (the commandment or reasons for doing so).

Especially since Brigham Young lived polyandry too.  I'm not aware of any others living it other than Parley P. Pratt, but they were following what Joseph did (I assume).

I can conceive of God giving such a commandment to Joseph but, for His own reasons, not directing that it be published to the world.

 

 

I started a new thread on this though, Scott, as I didn't want to derail this one.

 

Good luck with that.

 

I don't think I can take on any new threads just now. I have my hands full with this one.

[stemelbow]

Notwithstanding your repetitive accusations about him "lying to Emma" and such?

my what? Someone else brought that up. I responded to say, it seems he did. To accept research that may paint a negative on someone does not suggest that the negative is nasty, in any sense.

I don't know a soul who has not lied to another.

[Scott Lloyd]

Are you saying that he didn't lie to Emma about many of his marriages?  That you don't believe Joseph married girls and women behind her back?

 

I honestly believe this is one of the main reasons members are ok with how Brigham Young lived polygamy vs. how Joseph did.

I'm saying I lack the specific knowledge to share the conclusions you seem to have jumped to.

[ALarson]

Good luck with that.

 

I don't think I can take on any new threads just now. I have my hands full with this one.

Thanks Scott.  And yes, you do have your hands full but I'm sure you can manage just fine 

[Scott Lloyd]

my what? Someone else brought that up. I responded to say, it seems he did. To accept research that may paint a negative on someone does not suggest that the negative is nasty, in any sense.

I don't know a soul who has not lied to another.

Pardon if I've made a mistaken inference.

 

There are so many posts coming at me right now, it's a challenge to keep the nuances straight.

[Coreyb]

Are you saying that he didn't lie to Emma about many of his marriages?  That you don't believe Joseph married girls and women behind her back?

 

I honestly believe this is one of the main reasons members are ok with how Brigham Young lived polygamy vs. how Joseph did.

Brigham was a far better polygamist IMO

[Scott Lloyd]

Are you saying that he didn't lie to Emma about many of his marriages?  That you don't believe Joseph married girls and women behind her back?

 

I honestly believe this is one of the main reasons members are ok with how Brigham Young lived polygamy vs. how Joseph did.

Brigham Young was not confronted by same challenges as Joseph.

[stemelbow]

Brigham was a far better polygamist IMO

Not fair. he had far more practice and time.

[Teancum]

I didn't say "obliged." I said "obligingly."

 

And I disagree the Church was "forced into it." It was an act of compassion to accommodate those who are victimized by their own myopic outlook.

 

 

I have no doubt you disagree.  For you the Church is always right, the critics blinded benighted foolish persons.  See your comment above.  The brethren are always right.  There is no dispute that you ALWAYs side there. You say so frequently.

 

But you are wrong. If you were right they would have been more forthcoming years ago rather than portray the mythic and inaccurate history of the Church.  The LDS Church discloses what serves its interest and does no more or less until it views that it will be beneficial. 

 

As for myopic outlook well it is certainly clear we all see things differently.

[Scott Lloyd]

Thanks Scott.  And yes, you do have your hands full but I'm sure you can manage just fine 

Well, at least I haven't locked the thread. If Daniel2 and sethpayne are watching, I hope they take note of that.

Edited April 15, 2015 by Scott Lloyd

[carbon dioxide]

Are you saying that he didn't lie to Emma about many of his marriages?  That you don't believe Joseph married girls and women behind her back?

 

I honestly believe this is one of the main reasons members are ok with how Brigham Young lived polygamy vs. how Joseph did.

I am ok with how Joseph Smith lived it.  Brigham Young did not have a first wife like Emma who resisted it.  Joseph did the best he had with the circumstances he was given.  He also was in a way a pioneer in the practice.  Sure examples in the Old Testament existed but he had no role models who brought him up or showed him the ropes.  He was doing the best he could and stumbled along the way.  I don't think any of us would have done much better than Joseph Smith did if we were in his position. 

[Scott Lloyd]

I am ok with how Joseph Smith lived it.  Brigham Young did not have a first wife like Emma who resisted it.  Joseph did the best he had with the circumstances he was given.  He also was in a way a pioneer in the practice.  Sure examples in the Old Testament existed but he had no role models who brought him up or showed him the ropes.  He was doing the best he could and stumbled along the way.  I don't think any of us would have done much better than Joseph Smith did if we were in his position. 

Thank you.

 

This is consistent with what I said about Brigham not being confronted by the same challenges as Joseph.

 

You have explained it well.

[Gray]

I'll just say I think polygamy was a mistake and leave it at that.