carbon dioxide Posted April 7, 2015 Posted April 7, 2015 It is always good to examine indoctrinated beliefs with a rational mind. Are you afraid where that might lead you?Who says that indoctrinated beliefs are opposite of a rational mind? Who is the judge of a rational mind anyway. There is a lot of people running around who think they have a rational mind but I might think they are crazy.
Teancum Posted April 7, 2015 Posted April 7, 2015 Who says that indoctrinated beliefs are opposite of a rational mind? Who is the judge of a rational mind anyway. There is a lot of people running around who think they have a rational mind but I might think they are crazy.I did not say they were opposite.
Sevenbak Posted April 8, 2015 Posted April 8, 2015 They are going to dissect Elder Holland's insistence that there was an Adam and Eve and a literal garden.As well as his statement about no death before the fall. Yeah, that should get interesting.
Sevenbak Posted April 8, 2015 Posted April 8, 2015 If you listened carefully though he said there was no HUMAN death before the fall.That implies that all before Adam and Eve were not doctrinally defined as "human".That's actually a huge loophole.Where is the loophole? Is your father any less human than you are? Grandfather, Great Grandfather? GGGGGGGGrandfather? I don't see how evolution can fit into the garden creation story without causing a whole lot of mind bending. 2
Sevenbak Posted April 8, 2015 Posted April 8, 2015 Not to rain on anyone's parade, but before we get too excited about what Elder Holland may or may not have been saying, let's keep in mind what he has said...A most excellent link of Elder Holland, thanks. That should put to rest the idea of some here who think there was only a local flood, or that the land masses didn't divide during the time of Peleg, or that they will return together again at the 2nd coming.
mfbukowski Posted April 8, 2015 Posted April 8, 2015 (edited) This reminds me of the paradox of whether or not a person can ever reach a certain distance as he moves half the distance, then half of that, etc. etc. Is there a specific point in development where one could point to and say this is the first human who can commit sin or is it only possible to point to a time period and say within these years humans were born where they weren't fully accountable, but only partly and gradually got more and more accountable. Or during this time period most humans might be able to sense some sort of wrongness in their action, but would not be able to reason why and afterwards they could or some such thing.In some ways postulating a distinct creation for mankind makes for easier reasoning. PS: Zeno's Paradox (I am pretty impressed with myself as I remembered it as Zenock's but was certain that was wrong...over halfway right though ).The key here is reaching the cognitive point where one realizes that doing what is right for others leads to a pleasant life for all, and using others as objects leads to grief for all.One reaches a point, as asserted in the Didache, where one understands that there is a way of life which leads to life and another which leads to death. One understands the golden rule and one understands that the "wages of sin are death".THAT is when we see the relationship between sin and death.That is when we "consider ourselves each to be Adam and Eve". That is the fall for each of us, and the realization of the path back to life and resurrection through repentance. That is when we become saviors on Mt.Zion by taking on ourselves the identity of the Christ.I love this church. I may be the only one who sees it this way, but everyone has their variation, and they all fit.And yes, seeing it in terms of a real Adam and Eve and a special creation helps and makes it personal.And for all we can know, it might have been the way it "really happened". It makes it more concrete to think that way. Edited April 8, 2015 by mfbukowski
mfbukowski Posted April 8, 2015 Posted April 8, 2015 (edited) But they can't say that. There are too many children, both old and young.It must be like walking a tight rope for them. Edited April 8, 2015 by mfbukowski
mfbukowski Posted April 8, 2015 Posted April 8, 2015 (edited) It is always good to examine indoctrinated beliefs with a rational mind. Are you afraid where that might lead you?I would love to see you try to prove him wrong.It cannot be done. He is as right and rational as you are.You are as irrational in your belief as he is.No matters of faith are subject to being proven by evidence, especially that it is only "rational" to accept truth based on objective evidence.I can argue that one til doomsday if you like. Edited April 8, 2015 by mfbukowski 1
Rivers Posted April 8, 2015 Posted April 8, 2015 Where is the loophole? Is your father any less human than you are? Grandfather, Great Grandfather? GGGGGGGGrandfather? I don't see how evolution can fit into the garden creation story without causing a whole lot of mind bending.This is one of the biggest problems with harmonizing evolution and the gospel. With evolution there is no human family seprated from the rest life on earth. All living things on the earth are one great big family. So where do you draw the line between man and the rest of earth's living organisms? In evolutionary theory there are no definitive lilnes drawn label every single organism that has ever lived. If evolution was involved the creation of Adam and Eve, then Adam and Eve had parents that were not considered man. Was there some sort of special mutation that took placed in Adam and Eve that maded them different? I'm not saying that evolution cannot be reconciled with the gospel, but it certainly takes you down the rabit hole. Personally, I find the idea that all living things are related to be beautiful.
Calm Posted April 8, 2015 Posted April 8, 2015 But they can't say that. There are too many children, both old and young.It must be like walking a tight rope for them.What point of ground is solid enough for security and fluid enough for exploration.
mfbukowski Posted April 8, 2015 Posted April 8, 2015 A most excellent link of Elder Holland, thanks. That should put to rest the idea of some here who think there was only a local flood, or that the land masses didn't divide during the time of Peleg, or that they will return together again at the 2nd coming.Wait a minute.Are you saying you think that he was saying that all of that is scientifically verifible?Clearly he was making a statement of his personal faith, an I agree with him on that. 1
Calm Posted April 8, 2015 Posted April 8, 2015 In evolutionary theory there are no definitive lilnes drawn label every single organism that has ever lived. If evolution was involved the creation of Adam and Eve, then Adam and Eve had parents that were not considered man. Was there some sort of special mutation that took placed in Adam and Eve that maded them different? Or a human language taught to them that included concepts their minds had not considered before but once did life was different? Family had meaning. Perhaps a missing nutritional component that allow the brain to function in a new way, moving into a more reasoning stage where the waking state experience was seen as almost equivalent to the dream state. I've been under the influence of drugs that turn life into fantasy land. Perhaps part of the fall was becoming too old for the dreamworlds to be consider by most as valuable as the appearing to be concrete world....opposite of dream world by my computer is "hell".
mfbukowski Posted April 8, 2015 Posted April 8, 2015 What point of ground is solid enough for security and fluid enough for exploration.Well yes, that is the problem because they do not want to shake the faith of the fundamentalists, because that is all they have.That is the double edged sword of apologetics, because some first are led to a faith crisis by hearing arguments intended to solve another's faith crisis.Look what happens here when we speak allegorically.I see allegories in the news every day; it's never about anything being "real" or "fiction", but many cannot understand that. It's never one or the other. But the assumption is that if it is an allegory, it never happened. Weird.
mfbukowski Posted April 8, 2015 Posted April 8, 2015 Or a human language taught to them that included concepts their minds had not considered before but once did life was different? Family had meaning. Perhaps a missing nutritional component that allow the brain to function in a new way, moving into a more reasoning stage where the waking state experience was seen as almost equivalent to the dream state. I've been under the influence of drugs that turn life into fantasy land. Perhaps part of the fall was becoming too old for the dreamworlds to be consider by most as valuable as the appearing to be concrete world....opposite of dream world by my computer is "hell".That is how I always see the world because there is nothing knowable but human perception. The illusion is that we can somehow get outside our humanity to see things "as they are". "As they are" is exactly as we see them- part dream, part objective, but always laden with meaning.Advertising proves that. They are experts at infusing emotion into everything they present. Sex, fear, hope, laughter, meaning - all are inescapable parts of reality for us. We cannot strip them out of any perception.
mfbukowski Posted April 8, 2015 Posted April 8, 2015 Where is the loophole? Is your father any less human than you are? Grandfather, Great Grandfather? GGGGGGGGrandfather? I don't see how evolution can fit into the garden creation story without causing a whole lot of mind bending.One only has to bend into shape what is crooked to begin with.I have to bend my mind to even understand what I think you might mean.Pretend Adam was a mutation. Does that help?I have never seen a person, a thing or an idea that does NOT change, have you?Why would you think that progression is against the gospel when we believe in eternal progression???
ERayR Posted April 8, 2015 Posted April 8, 2015 As well as his statement about no death before the fall. Yeah, that should get interesting. Please get it right. He said no human death.
carbon dioxide Posted April 8, 2015 Posted April 8, 2015 I have never seen a person, a thing or an idea that does NOT change, have you? 1 + 1 = 2. That idea does not ever change. But then again, if society decides that it is not fair for the number 3, it might change so that 1 + 1 = 3. Just get the "Millennials" behind that cause. They will fall for it.
mnn727 Posted April 8, 2015 Posted April 8, 2015 I don't see how evolution can fit into the garden creation story without causing a whole lot of mind bending.Not at all, its actually very easy
mnn727 Posted April 8, 2015 Posted April 8, 2015 A most excellent link of Elder Holland, thanks. That should put to rest the idea of some here who think there was only a local flood, or that the land masses didn't divide during the time of Peleg, or that they will return together again at the 2nd coming. Of course, I have never seen a sign on the chapel door requiring I remove my mind before entering.
JLHPROF Posted April 8, 2015 Posted April 8, 2015 Where is the loophole? Is your father any less human than you are? Grandfather, Great Grandfather? GGGGGGGGrandfather? I don't see how evolution can fit into the garden creation story without causing a whole lot of mind bending. Thank you. That's what I've said all along.I cannot accept evolution as it is currently taught, and I certainly couldn't accept a God that would allow for it as it would be a cruel thing (as I've pointed out repeatedly).
mnn727 Posted April 8, 2015 Posted April 8, 2015 (edited) I am finding really hard to understand the rigidness of some members thinking on the literalness of 4000 year old stories from documents that have been translated and retranslated an unknown number of times. If the Church were really this rigid in its beliefs I'd be resigning. Thankfully its not. Edited April 8, 2015 by mnn727 1
Teancum Posted April 9, 2015 Posted April 9, 2015 I would love to see you try to prove him wrong.It cannot be done. He is as right and rational as you are.You are as irrational in your belief as he is.No matters of faith are subject to being proven by evidence, especially that it is only "rational" to accept truth based on objective evidence.I can argue that one til doomsday if you like. How can you prove faith wrong or right? It is a belief in something that lacks evidence. Or in the words of Mark Twain "Faith is believing in something you no ain't so....."
JLHPROF Posted April 9, 2015 Posted April 9, 2015 I am finding really hard to understand the rigidness of some members thinking on the literalness of 4000 year old stories from documents that have been translated and retranslated an unknown number of times. If the Church were really this rigid in its beliefs I'd be resigning. Thankfully its not. The Church isn't rigid, but it's doctrines are pretty well established in scripture and prophetic teaching.You may not believe the Bible is historically literal, but Mormonism has plenty of teaching that it is.
carbon dioxide Posted April 9, 2015 Posted April 9, 2015 (edited) I am finding really hard to understand the rigidness of some members thinking on the literalness of 4000 year old stories from documents that have been translated and retranslated an unknown number of times. If the Church were really this rigid in its beliefs I'd be resigning. Thankfully its not.There is no reason to believe that the stories from 4000 years ago are perfect, not misunderstood or told incorrectly. However its hard to take the stories not to be literal on at least a base level. If one does not believe that there was a literal garden and a literal Adam and Eve, or a literal Noah and a flood with an ark, the stories really become nothing more than fictional accounts on the level of Harry Potter. Why even have them in the scriptures? If God is not the author of confusion and these stories are causing confusion, we probably should remove them from the scriptures. Edited April 9, 2015 by carbon dioxide
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