"the Faithful Won't Yield On Religious Liberty"

[Scott Lloyd]

I was alerted to this piece through Daniel Peterson's blog.

 

So it seems the broader world of Christian orthodoxy is being faced with what the Church of Jesus Christ has been encountering: the insistence that the faithful must move inexorably toward acceptance of same-sex "marriage," else they as a group must wilt and ultimately die on the vine.

 

A variation on that narrative for the Church of Jesus Christ is that it is only a matter of time before a sufficient number of the bigots among the leadership and membership of the Church die off, and the enlightened progressives can then swoop in and accomplish what God wanted done all along.

 

The above link to a blog in the "National Review" has some good insights and observations that could be viewed as having application in our own Latter-day Saint dialogue.

Edited April 3, 2015 by Scott Lloyd

[Scott Lloyd]

No replies on this yet.

 

So in case it is being ignored, I'll go in and copy and paste some interesting passages (pay particular attention to the portion I have put in boldface):

 

 

We’ve been through this before. When Roe was decided, the major American Protestant denominations were in a transition process, with the mainline moving steadily out of orthodox Christianity. Their ultimate embrace of abortion wasn’t part of a considered, scriptural decision-making process but rather a product of spiritualized surrender to elite, progressive culture. The PCUSA, UCC, Episcopal Church, and others steadily liberalized — bending to the prevailing intellectual winds. For a time even the Southern Baptist Convention capitulated. Here’s Al Mohler: Two years before Roe, the Southern Baptist Convention passed a resolution calling for “legislation that will allow the possibility of abortion under such circumstances as rape, incest, clear evidence of fetal abnormality, and carefully ascertained evidence of the likelihood of damage to the emotional, mental, and physical health of the mother.” But while the mainline tacked left and kept tacking left, the SBC moved right, and decisively so. It’s now firmly and unequivocally pro-life. This move was part of a broader desire to follow scripture, as the SBC embraced the Bible, doubled down on orthodox Christianity, and defied the sexual revolution. What happened? Did the SBC whither away — becoming a church full of blue-haired holdouts, clinging to their guns and old-time religion as the mainline galloped away with the hearts and minds of the next generation? Hardly. It turns out that Christians generally want to be Christian, not spiritualized political liberals, so the mainline continued its slow-motion collapse while the SBC became bigger than all the major mainline churches combined. The churches that maintained orthodoxy did more than just survive, they thrived — and as one consequence, the pro-life movement has only gained political and cultural strength.

Given that same-sex marriage has the same level of scriptural support as abortion (none), we’ll see the same phenomenon at work in the contemporary churches. Christians who are already on their way out of orthodoxy will embrace same-sex marriage largely to the same extent that they’ve already embraced porn, abortion, and sex outside of marriage. In fact, churchgoing Christians who support same-sex marriage are eight times more likely than churchgoing Christians who oppose same-sex marriage to think viewing porn is acceptable, almost four times more likely to believe cohabitation is acceptable, almost six times more likely to think adultery is ok, and almost six times more likely to support abortion rights. The churchgoing supporter of same-sex marriage is much more like the average American than the average churchgoing American.
 

 

 

Edited April 3, 2015 by Scott Lloyd

[Avatar4321]

Increasingly we are the counter culture. As society trends contrary to our values we will attract more people escaping from Babylon

[JLHPROF]

Increasingly we are the counter culture. As society trends contrary to our values we will attract more people escaping from Babylon

 

But only as long as WE don't conform to Babylon.  We might be moving that direction but just at a much slower pace...it is always a danger.  It happened in the days of the early apostles.  They probably never realized an apostasy was creeping in.

 

185 years into the establishment of the Church and we have to know SOME errors will have crept in.  We're only human.

[Scott Lloyd]

Increasingly we are the counter culture. As society trends contrary to our values we will attract more people escaping from Babylon

Yeah.

 

Sister Oscarson's observation from last Saturday's women's session bears repeating:

 

There is a war going on in this world in which our most cherished and basic doctrines are under attack. I am speaking specifically of the doctrine of the family. The sanctity of the home and the essential purposes of the family are being questioned, criticized and assaulted on every front.

 

 

[rockpond]

No replies on this yet.

 

So in case it is being ignored, I'll go in and copy and paste some interesting passages:

 

...

 

In fact, churchgoing Christians who support same-sex marriage are eight times more likely than churchgoing Christians who oppose same-sex marriage to think viewing porn is acceptable, almost four times more likely to believe cohabitation is acceptable, almost six times more likely to think adultery is ok, and almost six times more likely to support abortion rights.

 

...

 

 

Well, for the record, I am ardently opposed to pornography, cohabitation, adultery, and abortion.

[rockpond]

I was alerted to this piece through Daniel Peterson's blog.

 

So it seems the broader world of Christian orthodoxy is being faced with what the Church of Jesus Christ has been encountering: the insistence that the faithful must move inexorably toward acceptance of same-sex "marriage," else they as a group must wilt and ultimately die on the vine.

 

A variation on that narrative for the Church of Jesus Christ is that it is only a matter of time before a sufficient number of the bigots among the leadership and membership of the Church die off, and the enlightened progressives can then swoop in and accomplish what God wanted done all along.

 

The above link to a blog in the "National Review" has some good insights and observations that could be viewed as having application in our own Latter-day Saint dialogue.

 

Any data out there on the continued success of churches that oppose ordaining those of African descent to the priesthood?

[Scott Lloyd]

Any data out there on the continued success of churches that oppose ordaining those of African descent to the priesthood?

I know of no such churches.

[rockpond]

I know of no such churches.

 

Exactly.

[Analytics]

"Given that same-sex marriage has the same level of scriptural support as abortion (none), we’ll see the same phenomenon at work in the contemporary churches...." 

 

 

What awful logic.  One could just as easily argue that since the Bible offers some scriptural support for slavery, we should expect that everybody who believes the Bible to reject slavery.

Edited April 3, 2015 by Analytics

[Scott Lloyd]

Exactly.

So, a non-sequitur, then.

[rockpond]

So, a non-sequitur, then.

 

No... I believe it to be a better comparison than abortion.

[Scott Lloyd]

What awful logic.  One could just as easily argue that since the Bible offers some scriptural support for slavery, we should expect that everybody who believes the Bible to reject slavery.

I don't see that as tantamount or even similar to what is being argued.

[Scott Lloyd]

Well, for the record, I am ardently opposed to pornography, cohabitation, adultery, and abortion.

We'll just pray that somebody doesn't get to you on those issues the way they did on homosexual behavior.

[carbon dioxide]

The story of Noah gives the lesson that it does not matter how many people there are that oppose the truth and how few are around that support it.  God will not change his views.  If 99.9% of the population has to be damned because they will not accept righteousness, then 99.9% will be damned.  Better to be right and stand alone than with the masses and be all wrong together.  Noah got the last laugh and we shall have the last laugh as well if we endure to the end regardless of what the people around us accept.

[carbon dioxide]

Well, for the record, I am ardently opposed to pornography, cohabitation, adultery, and abortion.

Perhaps 50-100 years from now, the Church will accept those positions as well. 

[cinepro]

The story of Noah gives the lesson that it does not matter how many people there are that oppose the truth and how few are around that support it.  God will not change his views.  If 99.9% of the population has to be damned because they will not accept righteousness, then 99.9% will be damned.  Better to be right and stand alone than with the masses and be all wrong together.  Noah got the last laugh and we shall have the last laugh as well if we endure to the end regardless of what the people around us accept.

 

The story of Official Declaration 1 would indicate otherwise.  

 

The Church will stand against the world, until it doesn't.

[rockpond]

We'll just pray that somebody doesn't get to you on those issues the way they did on homosexual behavior.

 

Nobody "got to me" regarding homosexual behavior.  What an odd statement.

[JLHPROF]

Any data out there on the continued success of churches that oppose ordaining those of African descent to the priesthood?

 

I know of no such churches.

 

Exactly.

 

Most Mormon fundamentalist "churches" follow that.  They are for the most part holding steady in their numbers.  It doesn't seem to have impacted the 25-30,000 fundamentalists in the intermountain west.

[JLHPROF]

The story of Official Declaration 1 would indicate otherwise.  

 

The Church will stand against the world, until it doesn't.

 

I think the Church does an admirable job standing against the world.

What the Church does a less admirable job against is standing against its own membership.

When a majority of members push hard enough for a change, that's when the change happens.

 

That was the real reason for OD1, changes to the garments, ordinances, covenants, practices, and doctrines.

Pressure from within is what we really can't stand.

[Scott Lloyd]

Nobody "got to me" regarding homosexual behavior.  What an odd statement.

So you have always been at odds with the Church of Jesus Christ on this subject then?

[danielwoods]

We’ve been through this before. When Roe was decided, the major American Protestant denominations were in a transition process, with the mainline moving steadily out of orthodox Christianity. Their ultimate embrace of abortion wasn’t part of a considered, scriptural decision-making process but rather a product of spiritualized surrender to elite, progressive culture. The PCUSA, UCC, Episcopal Church, and others steadily liberalized — bending to the prevailing intellectual winds. For a time even the Southern Baptist Convention capitulated. Here’s Al Mohler: Two years before Roe, the Southern Baptist Convention passed a resolution calling for “legislation that will allow the possibility of abortion under such circumstances as rape, incest, clear evidence of fetal abnormality, and carefully ascertained evidence of the likelihood of damage to the emotional, mental, and physical health of the mother.” But while the mainline tacked left and kept tacking left, the SBC moved right, and decisively so. It’s now firmly and unequivocally pro-life. This move was part of a broader desire to follow scripture, as the SBC embraced the Bible, doubled down on orthodox Christianity, and defied the sexual revolution. What happened? Did the SBC whither away — becoming a church full of blue-haired holdouts, clinging to their guns and old-time religion as the mainline galloped away with the hearts and minds of the next generation? Hardly. It turns out that Christians generally want to be Christian, not spiritualized political liberals, so the mainline continued its slow-motion collapse while the SBC became bigger than all the major mainline churches combined. The churches that maintained orthodoxy did more than just survive, they thrived — and as one consequence, the pro-life movement has only gained political and cultural strength.

 

 

What I find interesting, and i agree this will cause another split in the christian community, is this fact that is bolded. Jesus still heals, still answers prayer, and still saves. But, it's the orthodox that preach Jesus and God's word not watered down with false teachings to make people feel good. 

 

I remember when Roe was hotly debated, and like it says above, those churches who decided to follow the cultural "easy way" became just a humanistic group, not a christian group. 

Edited April 3, 2015 by danielwoods

[CV75]

I think the Church does an admirable job standing against the world.

What the Church does a less admirable job against is standing against its own membership.

When a majority of members push hard enough for a change, that's when the change happens.

 

That was the real reason for OD1, changes to the garments, ordinances, covenants, practices, and doctrines.

Pressure from within is what we really can't stand.

Standing against the world and keeping a pulse on the practical needs of the membership in decisions supporting the optimal and faithful exercise of the restored keys are part of the same thing: the Lord’s leadership through inspired councils.

 

The leaders themselves are part of the "within/among" because the kingdom of God is already come unto us all (Luke 17:21 and footnotes). But He runs His kingdom a certain way, suitable for His purposes and for the work to get done on His timetable. Being sensitive to the needs of the ministered without perverting the covenants of exaltation is a balance only the Lord can acheive, and in this Church that is exactly what He directs (you left out OD2 and women praying in conference!). Including the stance the Church takes on the topic of religious freedom and liberty.

[california boy]

Increasingly we are the counter culture. As society trends contrary to our values we will attract more people escaping from Babylon

 

 

Yeah.

 

Sister Oscarson's observation from last Saturday's women's session bears repeating:

 

There is a war going on in this world in which our most cherished and basic doctrines are under attack. I am speaking specifically of the doctrine of the family. The sanctity of the home and the essential purposes of the family are being questioned, criticized and assaulted on every front.

 

 

 

 

 

 

The thing that I find most odd about all of these threads you seem to be prompted to post about gay marriage and discriminating against gays is the very MINOR role it all plays in the quote by Sister Oscarson that gay marriage ACTUALLY plays in tearing down the sanctity of the family.  

 

Most estimate that there is only 3-5% of the population is gay.  Of that 3-5% only about 10% choose to marry.  So we are talking about .3-.5% of the total population is gay and getting married.  Of that number 0% of the total population is gay and being married by the Church.  So just how big of problem is gay marriage in the church as opposed to the real problems that are attacking members such as divorce, adultery, unwed mothers and all the other sexual sins.  

 

Do you ever stop to think that perhaps you are attacking the absolutely least significant sexual sin ever?????  One that only affects the church when it tries to impose its beliefs on others?  And I might add the only sexual sin that the church tries to impose it's beliefs on others.  I have yet to see the church try to pass legislation not allowing adulterers, or fornicators from marrying.  Yet the percentage of adulterors and forinicators in this country is way higher than the percentage of the .3% of the population that is gay and gets married.  And unlike the 0% of gay marriages taking place in the church, there is actually members that are actually tearing their families apart by committing adultery, watching porn, and having sex outside of marriage.  

 

I do not think I have ever read a single post on this board DEMANDING that the church accept gay marriage.  Not one.  The only post I have seen are those that think there is a possibility that someday it may happen on its own, by the choice of the leadership.

 

Do you know what the term scape goat means?  Could you and others in the church perhaps be using those of us who are gay to be scape goats for much bigger problems?  Cause it sure feels like it.

Edited April 3, 2015 by california boy

[JLHPROF]

Standing against the world and keeping a pulse on the practical needs of the membership in decisions supporting the optimal and faithful exercise of the restored keys are part of the same thing: the Lord’s leadership through inspired councils.

 

The leaders themselves are part of the "within/among" because the kingdom of God is already come unto us all (Luke 17:21 and footnotes). But He runs His kingdom a certain way, suitable for His purposes and for the work to get done on His timetable. Being sensitive to the needs of the ministered without perverting the covenants of exaltation is a balance only the Lord can acheive, and in this Church that is exactly what He directs (you left out OD2 and women praying in conference!). Including the stance the Church takes on the topic of religious freedom and liberty.

 

The way you phrased all this makes it impossible for me to disagree especially the clever wording on the bolded part.   Good job. 

 

But I stand by my point.  The Church will NEVER bow to the world on an issue like SSM.

However, we have an entire generation of kids being raised in a society where they are taught in school and society at large that SSM is ok, that discriminating against homosexuals is just a horrible thing to do, and that we should support them in their fight for equality.  63% of the US support SSM, and its growing.

 

People like Rockpond are currently the miniscule minority in the Church.  However, when we reach the point the 3/4 of the membership strongly support SSM up to and including in the Church, that is when the leaders will change.  Every bishop, stake president, and even some GA's in 30-40 years WILL believe that SSM is completely ok and belongs in the Church.  That's my estimate.

So it's not an issue of the Church withstanding the world, it's an issue of the Church not wanting itself to fall apart.

 

But long before we see SSM in the Church we will see women being ordained.  As the percentage of members who support ordaining women grows and more and more women choose to leave over it the Church leadership will have no choice.

It won't be the protesters, the reporters, the feminists, the equal rights people etc.  It will be the everyday member that thinks the Church is in error, sexist, and is willing to leave because of it.  When the percentage reaches high enough the change will occur.

 

It's happened before.