Update

[Kenngo1969]

Poptart,

 

OK.  I wish you well, wherever your faith journey should take you.  You're always welcome among us.  (I certainly cannot relate, because my home life never was that bad, but I'm a long term bachelor in a family church, so to that extent, perhaps I can. ) If you're ever in my ward, you're certainly welcome to sit by me. Best to you.

 

Regards,

 

-Ken

Edited April 2, 2015 by Kenngo1969

[poptart]

Continue to pray to God for guidance (I do the same every day ).  Yes, it is truly wonderful to know that the whole communion of saints, on earth and in Heaven, is praying for you, and you can indeed ask them all for their prayers.  And there's nothing wrong with continuing to talk and socialize with your LDS friends.  I still do (I was just catching up with an LDS buddy earlier this evening).  We're all seeking after Jesus Christ in the best ways we know how.  

I was doing just that.  I had time to look back and he said that there are wards with loads of materialistic people.  He asked the same thing, where's the compassion.  Tragic thing is I know someone who's family is just like that and as it is they are well on their way to turining into a typical dysfunctional American family. 

 

Poptart,

 

OK.  I wish you well, wherever your faith journey should take you.  You're always welcome among us.  (I certainly cannot relate, because my home life never was that bad, but I'm a long term bachelor in a family church, so to that extent, perhaps I can. ) If you're ever in my ward, you're certainly welcome to sit by me. Best to you.

 

Regards,

 

-Ken

I'll still go to the ocasional ward activity and I can't complain, I did receive help from LDS employment services.  Thing is with what I've had to deal with is i'm approaching the point where therapy can only do so much.  No one wants to pay for the traditional psychotherapy so we all have to make do. 

Still, it's something that's never going to be there, is what it is. 

On the bright side there's a Samoan ward nearby, I wonder if they du Luaus.  (the real ones with the super salty pork and poi.  Local style food. yum...)

[thesometimesaint]

There several places that do mental health services at reduced or no cost to the patient. Do check them out.

[Robert F. Smith]

Sadly, plenty of people of all religious stripes (whether they be members/leaders of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, of the Roman Catholic Church, or of some other faith or organization) have done horrible things while representing those religions.  The "good" stuff isn't noteworthy, so it gets ignored; meanwhile, untold amounts of ink, newsprint, bandwidth, and so on are expended in publicizing the "bad" stuff far and wide.  Part of the reason for that is because it is so noteworthy when someone who is supposed to use his position for good does the opposite.  As many misgivings as I might have regarding the coverage of any given instance of wrongdoing, in a perverse way, I'm ... what's the word I'm looking for? ...  glad? ... Not glad, not gratified, but something akin to that ... when someone notes such wrongdoing.  

 

As much as we'd like to say, "It isn't [as much of] a problem in my faith," or "My faith deals with it better," the reality is that we're all subject to the vicissitudes of a fallen world, no matter how hard we try not to be.  The fact that such note is taken should keep us, all of us, humble; it should prevent us from saying, "Dear Lord, I thank the that I am not as other men," and should cause us, instead, to say, "Lord, have mercy on me, a sinner."  Even though the world tends to indulge in schadenfreude when one of the purportedly religiously committed fails spectacularly to live up to the ideals espoused by his faith (we're all, to a greater or lesser degree and at one time or another, hypocrites), even though the only time the world seems to notice is when we fail to do that, the fact that the world at least notices our high expectations still is a good thing.

Brilliant and necessary statement, Kenngo.  Just brilliant!!

[Robert F. Smith]

25 years ago?  Have you not read of the recent similar issues in other countries?

 

It is far from over.  And you should not have directed my comments back to the LDS Church...you did not like it when I did that very thing on the Catholic Board   

 

But...if you have something concrete instead of a vague accusation, please share it in a new thread  

To be fair, CountryBoy, one must observe that these problems are not unique to Catholicism, and that the vast majority of RC priests, monks, and nuns are very sincere in their religious commitments.  The same is true of other religions, including the Mormon faith.  One has only to search the internet for such accounts to find that there are plenty of folks with feet of clay.  Everyone should be embarrassed.  No faith is simon pure, and we all must work in our own section of the vineyard to prevent such despicable acts and to call to repentance those sociopaths who engage in them.  Those who live in glass houses should not throw stones.

[poptart]

Nothing against the LDS faith at all.  Like I said I still go to the ocasional function, but I just like where the focus is on the RC tradition. 

Also I will most likely need aditional therapy years from now.  The damage done to me was permanent, there are some roles I just cannot function in and family, especially as it is in the USA is one of them.  I would absolutly snap with what goes on with most families nowadays, the stress would be too much.  THe people I know from the LDS church are atleast understand of things like this I just cannot help, it's a trigger that just goes really deep.

[Kenngo1969]

Brilliant and necessary statement, Kenngo.  Just brilliant!!

Thank you.

[UtahTexan]

To be fair, CountryBoy, one must observe that these problems are not unique to Catholicism, and that the vast majority of RC priests, monks, and nuns are very sincere in their religious commitments.  The same is true of other religions, including the Mormon faith.  One has only to search the internet for such accounts to find that there are plenty of folks with feet of clay.  Everyone should be embarrassed.  No faith is simon pure, and we all must work in our own section of the vineyard to prevent such despicable acts and to call to repentance those sociopaths who engage in them.  Those who live in glass houses should not throw stones.

 

You miss my point.  And that is ok.  

 

It has nothing to do with human mistakes.   

 

I will leave it at that

[3DOP]

You miss my point.  And that is ok.  

 

It has nothing to do with human mistakes.   

 

I will leave it at that

 

The point Country Boy is making is that there was and still remains a bias in most diocesan seminaries against candidates for the priesthood who hold to traditional Catholic morals and doctrine. Michael Rose is a widely respected author and his book includes a forward by the widely respected Dr. Alice von Hildebrand. There are positive reviews of his book by many other orthodox Catholic thinkers and writers who are aware that faithful Catholics see their Church undergoing a passion today not because of mistakes, but because of traitorous actions on the part of successors of the Apostles as deliberate as was the betrayal and passion of Jesus Christ by an Apostle.

 

They want to argue that men having sex with altar boys wouldn't happen if only they could be married. Oh yeah, how would you like to have that kind of man for a son-in-law, much less for your spiritual guide? Most seminaries aren't teaching the reasons Catholics in the West have always put forth for the great value of consecrated virginity anymore because they don't want anybody to know. Priests and bishops might be validly ordained and consecrated, but that doesn't mean they know the Catholic faith. 

 

Some reviews...

     

"In Goodbye! Good Men, author Michael Rose interviewed over 125 seminarians to examine the reasons why the Catholic Church now faces an alarming shortage of priests. (From 1966 to 1999 the number of seminarians dropped from 39,638 to 4,826.) For years this dramatic decline has been blamed on materialism, growing skepticism, and the perceived "unrealistic expectation" of celibacy. Yet Rose believes that the main reason for the priest shortage is the ambivalence and dissent within the Catholic Church itself. "Dissent kills vocations," he writes. "It's merely common sense that says people generally do not want to give themselves to an organization whose leaders constantly bemoan its basic structure." Of course he also points to the "appalling" sexual abuses within the church as a strong deterrent. Interestingly, though, Rose (Ugly as Sin) believes that the solution is not to reconsider the demands of celibacy or refashion doctrine to make it more palatable to modern people. Rather, he points out that the more successful seminaries (the ones that attract and keep candidates) are not the politically correct reformist, but the more orthodox. According to Rose, "It boils down to a generation gap of sorts, one that pits the aging radical reformer against the young, pious conservative." Regardless of where you fall on this continuum, Rose's assessment adds a provocative voice to a crucial discussion." --Gail Hudson

 

Review

. . . evidence that the destruction of Catholicism in America has primarily been an inside job . . . and he names names. -- Rod Dreher, "National Review"

. . . shows how a [priest] shortage has been artificially created by keeping good candidates out and admitting effete and unorthodox ones . . . -- Ralph McInerny, University of Notre Dame , author of "What Went Wrong with Vatican II?"

American Catholics everywhere are reeling. . . . This book is not to be missed by anyone who cares about the Catholic faith. -- Donna Steichen, author of "Ungodly Rage" and "Prodigal Daughters"

 

[UtahTexan]

Exactly. 

 

And it is that decay and the response by the Vatican that further makes my point.

 

We need a Prophet.  Without a prophet, we have that AND hundreds of denominations all teaching different doctrine from the same Book.

 

we need the LDS Church.  

 

I need the LDS Church.

 

And anyone who watched GC and believes we are not led by a prophet is kidding themselves.

[3DOP]

Country Boy, hey.

 

I can't figure why a good Mormon would read a book that more faithful Catholics need to read, but I didn't like seeing you misunderstood. 

 

You are also correct about needing prophets. Assuredly, we must always remember St. Paul's admonition: "Despise not prophecies." (I Thess. 5:20) 

 

If the Catholic Church is true, her own prophets have been foretelling the days when the hierarchy of the Church would forsake the faith, and in the words of one of the seers at Fatima, less than a hundred years ago, a "diabolical disorientation" would soon afflict Holy Mother Church. The prophetess was correct. "Despising not prophecies" has to mean for the faithful Catholic, that we do not become disoriented by the contemporary novelties that the world and other religions praise the Catholic hierarchy for proposing.

 

God bless,

 

3DOP

Edited April 7, 2015 by 3DOP

[ChristKnight]

3DOP, as I was at Easter Mass yesterday, noting the altar girl and one or two other things, I can't help but think I'm more of a "traditional" Catholic (though I do love a properly celebrated Mass of Paul VI), though I wouldn't go so far as to say that the Church hierarchy has forsaken the Faith (which reminds me of the apostasy claim of LDS and others).  

 

However, thank you for pointing out one example of the prophets and prophetesses found within Catholicism down through the ages.

[UtahTexan]

Country Boy, hey.

 

I can't figure why a good Mormon would read a book that more faithful Catholics need to read, but I didn't like seeing you misunderstood. 

 

You are also correct about needing prophets. Assuredly, we must always remember St. Paul's admonition: "Despise not prophecies." (I Thess. 5:20) 

 

If the Catholic Church is true, her own prophets have been foretelling the days when the hierarchy of the Church would forsake the faith, and in the words of one of the seers at Fatima, less than a hundred years ago, a "diabolical disorientation" would soon afflict Holy Mother Church. The prophetess was correct. "Despising not prophecies" has to mean for the faithful Catholic, that we do not become disoriented by the contemporary novelties that the world and other religions praise the Catholic hierarchy for proposing.

 

God bless,

 

3DOP

 

if you mean why I read it, I read it when I was Catholic.....

[UtahTexan]

3DOP, as I was at Easter Mass yesterday, noting the altar girl and one or two other things, I can't help but think I'm more of a "traditional" Catholic (though I do love a properly celebrated Mass of Paul VI), though I wouldn't go so far as to say that the Church hierarchy has forsaken the Faith (which reminds me of the apostasy claim of LDS and others).  

 

However, thank you for pointing out one example of the prophets and prophetesses found within Catholicism down through the ages.

 

Not gonna debate on this forum

Edited April 7, 2015 by CountryBoy

[3DOP]

3DOP, as I was at Easter Mass yesterday, noting the altar girl and one or two other things, I can't help but think I'm more of a "traditional" Catholic (though I do love a properly celebrated Mass of Paul VI), though I wouldn't go so far as to say that the Church hierarchy has forsaken the Faith (which reminds me of the apostasy claim of LDS and others).  

 

However, thank you for pointing out one example of the prophets and prophetesses found within Catholicism down through the ages.

 

CK...I'm very glad you're back. Agreed about what I said can remind one of apostasy claims, by LDS and others. I see that. It seems to me though, that post-1965 is far too late for any claims, except those prophesied by those who nevertheless affirmed the Catholic faith. 

 

Country Boy...hey to you too. I didn't know you were Catholic. The Church has never taught that every bishop, even the bishop of Rome, would be a faithful Catholic, or even saved. The greatest theologians and doctors of the Church have always speculated about unfaithful popes. I wouldn't want to answer for Cardinal Law myself.     

 

God bless,

 

Rory

[Robert F. Smith]

25 years ago?  Have you not read of the recent similar issues in other countries?

 

It is far from over.  And you should not have directed my comments back to the LDS Church...you did not like it when I did that very thing on the Catholic Board     

 

But...if you have something concrete instead of a vague accusation, please share it in a new thread   

My post #55:

To be fair, CountryBoy, one must observe that these problems are not unique to Catholicism, and that the vast majority of RC priests, monks, and nuns are very sincere in their religious commitments.  The same is true of other religions, including the Mormon faith.  One has only to search the internet for such accounts to find that there are plenty of folks with feet of clay.  Everyone should be embarrassed.  No faith is simon pure, and we all must work in our own section of the vineyard to prevent such despicable acts and to call to repentance those sociopaths who engage in them.  Those who live in glass houses should not throw stones.

Really?  How the bishops and the Vatican handled the scandal, especially Law, and it was exactly that.

 

You told me why you left the LDS Church...I find that odd....you would for that and accept how the catholics handled the sex scandal.

 

shrugs.....

I understood you very well, CountryBoy, but you clearly did not read my post #55 carefully and humbly, and you are also clearly unaware of the very same problem within the LDS Church.  A serious look at this on the internet might make you a little less smug, vainglorious, and accusatory.

 

Certainly Roman Catholicism has had a well-publicized sex scandal for many years, and it continues to plague that Church.  What you have not read about, or have ignored, is the very same difficulties within Mormonism (and other faiths).  The lawsuits and the local damage within wards and stakes can be very costly and disheartening.  Wolves in sheep's clothing can be found literally everywhere, and we must do everything possible to prevent those predators from repeated success.

[UtahTexan]

CK...I'm very glad you're back. Agreed about what I said can remind one of apostasy claims, by LDS and others. I see that. It seems to me though, that post-1965 is far too late for any claims, except those prophesied by those who nevertheless affirmed the Catholic faith. 

 

Country Boy...hey to you too. I didn't know you were Catholic. The Church has never taught that every bishop, even the bishop of Rome, would be a faithful Catholic, or even saved. The greatest theologians and doctors of the Church have always speculated about unfaithful popes. I wouldn't want to answer for Cardinal Law myself.     

 

God bless,

 

Rory

 

Not gonna debate on this forum

Edited April 7, 2015 by CountryBoy

[UtahTexan]

I understood you very well, CountryBoy, but you clearly did not read my post #55 carefully and humbly, and you are also clearly unaware of the very same problem within the LDS Church.  A serious look at this on the internet might make you a little less smug, vainglorious, and accusatory.

 

Certainly Roman Catholicism has had a well-publicized sex scandal for many years, and it continues to plague that Church.  What you have not read about, or have ignored, is the very same difficulties within Mormonism (and other faiths).  The lawsuits and the local damage within wards and stakes can be very costly and disheartening.  Wolves in sheep's clothing can be found literally everywhere, and we must do everything possible to prevent those predators from repeated success.

Not gonna debate on this forum

Edited April 7, 2015 by CountryBoy

[ChristKnight]

CK...I'm very glad you're back. Agreed about what I said can remind one of apostasy claims, by LDS and others. I see that. It seems to me though, that post-1965 is far too late for any claims, except those prophesied by those who nevertheless affirmed the Catholic faith. 

 

 

Thanks Rory, I'm glad to be back too.  I'll have to read more about these prophecies, thanks for sharing.

[Tacenda]

I never said it did. However, how the sex was handled, and how the Catholic Church was handled that led to the sex scandal says all we need to know. It is why I am not Catholic.

I wouldn't hang your hat on that, you apparently are unaware that the LDS church has had its fair share of sexual abuse by clergy.

And IMO, the church didn't handle the cases how they should have. I've read articles and a book about specific cases where the offender continued in certain callings that enabled the abuse to continue despite the knowledge of abuse.

Of course like the Catholic church they are getting better by using prevention techniques.

Edited April 7, 2015 by Tacenda

[UtahTexan]

I wouldn't hang your hat on that, you apparently are unaware that the LDS church has had its fair share of sexual abuse by clergy. And IMO the church didn't handle the case how they should have. I've read articles and a book about specific cases where the offender continued in certain callings that enabled the abuse to continue despite the knowledge of abuse.

 

Not gonna debate on this forum

Edited April 7, 2015 by CountryBoy

[UtahTexan]

I wouldn't hang your hat on that, you apparently are unaware that the LDS church has had its fair share of sexual abuse by clergy.

And IMO, the church didn't handle the cases how they should have. I've read articles and a book about specific cases where the offender continued in certain callings that enabled the abuse to continue despite the knowledge of abuse.

Of course like the Catholic church they are getting better by using prevention techniques.

 

Not gonna debate on this forum

Edited April 7, 2015 by CountryBoy

[Calm]

This really should be taken to the other forum?

[Tacenda]

Could you provide some references, please?

You're a lawyer, you know how to find it if you need. I don't want to do more harm than I probably already have. It's just that I use to think that way about the Catholics but realised they aren't alone. We all need to be wary as members of all faiths that this happens. It should be reported first and foremost to the law not to another middleman. No coverups.

[3DOP]

This really should be taken to the other forum?

 

Sounds good to me, cal...I'll close it down here without wanting it to pop up anywhere else.