Update

[saemo]

No....it has been shown that many priests are Bi, or gay.  Reading "Good-Bye, Good Men" by Catholic writer Michael Rose was an eye-opener.   I am not surprised at the gravitation to the Catholic Church.  He should find more understanding in the Catholic Church.  They are all in my prayers.

I could care less what sexual orientation a priest is. All priests are called to live his vows and be an example of a Christian life.

 

That being said, shortly after I was baptized a deacon said to us (the group that were baptized) that no doubt someone will offend us, as Catholics, and most likely it will be a priest.    Priests are just men, not gods.

Edited April 1, 2015 by saemo

[UtahTexan]

I could care less what sexual orientation a priest is. All priests are called to live his vows and be an example of a Christian life.

 

That being said, shortly after I was baptized a deacon said to us (the group that were baptized) that no doubt someone will offend us, as Catholics, and most likely it will be a priest.    Priests are just men, not gods.

 

Well....if more had cared, what all those priests did to kids would never have happened.  I encourage you to read "Goodbye, Good Men"

[saemo]

Well....if more had cared, what all those priests did to kids would never have happened.  I encourage you to read "Goodbye, Good Men"

 

 

 

The problems raised in the book, while real, do not tell a whole story but tell a biased story, based on an agenda. I'm not interested in agendas.

[UtahTexan]

The book is based on truth.  I can understand your reluctance  

[saemo]

The book is based on truth.  I can understand your reluctance  

I can understand you wanting to paint my objection to agenda-based bias as "reluctance" to hearing the "truth".

 

We can play this game all day if you like.

Edited April 1, 2015 by saemo

[Kenngo1969]

Sadly, plenty of people of all religious stripes (whether they be members/leaders of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, of the Roman Catholic Church, or of some other faith or organization) have done horrible things while representing those religions.  The "good" stuff isn't noteworthy, so it gets ignored; meanwhile, untold amounts of ink, newsprint, bandwidth, and so on are expended in publicizing the "bad" stuff far and wide.  Part of the reason for that is because it is so noteworthy when someone who is supposed to use his position for good does the opposite.  As many misgivings as I might have regarding the coverage of any given instance of wrongdoing, in a perverse way, I'm ... what's the word I'm looking for? ...  glad? ... Not glad, not gratified, but something akin to that ... when someone notes such wrongdoing.  

 

As much as we'd like to say, "It isn't [as much of] a problem in my faith," or "My faith deals with it better," the reality is that we're all subject to the vicissitudes of a fallen world, no matter how hard we try not to be.  The fact that such note is taken should keep us, all of us, humble; it should prevent us from saying, "Dear Lord, I thank the that I am not as other men," and should cause us, instead, to say, "Lord, have mercy on me, a sinner."  Even though the world tends to indulge in schadenfreude when one of the purportedly religiously committed fails spectacularly to live up to the ideals espoused by his faith (we're all, to a greater or lesser degree and at one time or another, hypocrites), even though the only time the world seems to notice is when we fail to do that, the fact that the world at least notices our high expectations still is a good thing.

Edited April 1, 2015 by Kenngo1969

[saemo]

Sadly, plenty of people of all religious stripes (whether they be members/leaders of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, of the Roman Catholic Church, or of some other faith or organization) have done horrible things while representing those religions.  The "good" stuff isn't noteworthy, so it gets ignored; meanwhile, untold amounts of ink, newsprint, bandwidth, and so on are expended in publicizing the "bad" stuff far and wide.  Part of the reason for that is because it is so noteworthy when someone who is supposed to use his position for good does the opposite.  As many misgivings as I might have regarding the coverage of any given instance of wrongdoing, in a perverse way, I'm ... what's the word I'm looking for? ...  glad? ... Not glad, not gratified, but something akin to that when someone notes such wrongdoing.  

 

As much as we'd like to say, "It isn't [as much of] a problem in my faith," or "My faith deals with it better," the reality is that we're all subject to the vicissitudes of a fallen world, no matter how hard we try not to be.  The fact that such note is taken should keep us, all of us, humble; it should prevent us from saying, "Dear Lord, I thank the that I am not as other men," and should cause us, instead, to say, "Lord, have mercy on me, a sinner."  Even though the world tends to indulge in schadenfreude when one of the purportedly religiously committed fails spectacularly to live up to the ideals espoused by his faith (we're all, to a greater or lesser degree and at one time or another, hypocrites), even though the only time the world seems to notice is when we fail to do that, the fact that the world at least notices our high expectations still is a good thing.

I have to say, you always have a way with words.

 

For me, coming from anti-religious atheism, there is a lot out there that slams particular religions in order to attack us all and those who are not religious at all, view these attacks all as one portrayal of all religions. Why move from one religion to the other based on the wicked behavior of individuals or groups, when ALL humans have the same issues, and the only logical thing to do with that requirement is to become a humanist, and go for an ideology that excludes religion.

 

The problem I had with being a humanist, is personally, that ideology changes, one day to the next. What is good? What is bad? Who decides?

 

Christians (and I'm including LDS) focus on Jesus Christ, who is not an ideology, but a Person. The Truth of this person does not wax and wane based on the wicked or pious behavior of humans. HE is who I seek to emulate, not any other person, including those who I hold in great regard, and love, as religious leaders.

 

Also, there is what a Catholic, who I admire, calls the "Protestant temptation", which is, that Jesus has left His Church and so we have to go wandering around trying to figure out where He's gone. This is not the Catholic view, which is, our sins do NOT scare Jesus off, as evidenced by the Cross.

 

Our call is to forsake our sins, and follow Him.

Edited April 1, 2015 by saemo

[Kenngo1969]

I have to say, you always have a way with words.

 

For me, coming from anti-religious atheism, there is a lot out there that slams particular religions in order to attack us all and those who are not religious at all, view these attacks all as one portrayal of all religions. Why move from one religion to the other based on the wicked behavior of individuals or groups, when ALL humans have the same issues, and the only logical thing to do with that requirement is to become a humanist, and go for an ideology that excludes religion.

 

The problem I had with being a humanist, is personally, that ideology changes, one day to the next. What is good? What is bad? Who decides?

 

Christians (and I'm including LDS) focus on Jesus Christ, who is not an ideology, but a Person. The Truth of this person does not wax and wane based on the wicked or pious behavior of humans. HE is who I seek to emulate, not any other person, including those who I hold in great regard, and love, as religious leaders.

 

Also, there is what a Catholic, who I admire, calls the "Protestant temptation", which is, that Jesus has left His Church and so we have to go wandering around trying to figure out where He's gone. This is not the Catholic view, which is, our sins do NOT scare Jesus off, as evidenced by the Cross.

 

Our call is to forsake our sins, and follow Him.

You're not so bad with words yourself!

[Kenngo1969]

I wrote this in another context, but it's applicable here:

 

 

 

Some say the solution to failure to live up to arguably-dated ideals is to throw out the ideals, and to adopt a new paradigm more in keeping with “the times.” . . . [W]ith due respect, I disagree. Yes, it’s true that anyone who espouses a particular ideal but then fails to live up to that ideal is a hypocrite. It’s also true that this means that, at one time or another and to one degree or another, we’re all hypocrites. But that problem isn’t solved by throwing out the ideal: it’s solved by recommitting ourselves to redouble our efforts to live up to the ideal any time we fall short. That’s the best way—indeed, it might be the only way—to ensure that we can sleep at night and that we can look at ourselves in the mirror every morning.

 

See Ken K. Gourdin (February 10, 2015), "Dragnet & Adam-12: Dated?  Sometimes Stilted?  Yeah, But Also Timeless and, in Their Way, Cool" (Blog Post), accessed on line at https://greatgourdini.wordpress.com/2015/02/10/dragnet-and-adam-12/ on April 1, 2015.

[saemo]

I wrote this in another context, but it's applicable here:

 

 

See Ken K. Gourdin (February 10, 2015), "Dragnet & Adam-12: Dated?  Sometimes Stilted?  Yeah, But Also Timeless and, in Their Way, Cool" (Blog Post), accessed on line at https://greatgourdini.wordpress.com/2015/02/10/dragnet-and-adam-12/ on April 1, 2015.

Agreed, and I am a sinner. I'm trying, even if no one can discern that I am, but God.

 

However, I have a problem with naming Jesus as an "ideal". :-) Jesus is Truth itself, not an ideal of truth.

[UtahTexan]

I can understand you wanting to paint my objection to agenda-based bias as "reluctance" to hearing the "truth".

 

We can play this game all day if you like.

 

I am sorry you find that crisis a "game".

 

Michael Rose is a devout Catholic who investigated and reported truth.  But, I can that you have no interest.

[Ham Clam]

If there were an interest in marriage, and the interest was a same sex marriage, then no, that wouldn't happen. The approach of the RCC is that everyone sins, and needs Christ. The other kicker is, focusing on sexual orientation as the defining thing about a person, may be prevalent among a lot of Catholics, but the pastoral approach is to see the person first, as loved by God, and possessed of the inherent dignity that God has given them.

It's something that poptart will really want to think about in his faith journey. Of course, I'm sure poptart already knew about the RCC's position.

[saemo]

I am sorry you find that crisis a "game".

 

Michael Rose is a devout Catholic who investigated and reported truth.  But, I can that you have no interest.

Michael Rose isn't the one here playing games, my friend.

[UtahTexan]

Michael Rose isn't the one here playing games, my friend.

 

 

True. So please stop.

 

And, let me know what you think of his book.  As the devout Catholic you claim to be, you will find his book interesting since he is one, too.  It is just truth...no need to resist

[saemo]

True. So please stop.

 

And, let me know what you think of his book.  As the devout Catholic you claim to be, you will find his book interesting since he is one, too.  It is just truth...no need to resist

Honestly, the priest scandals are so hurtful my heart, that I have no desire to focus on the evil of those men. A book that focuses on that evil, is in my mind, perpetuating that evil. Don't give the devil his due, you know?

 

If it were written with an intent to improve something, that would be different, but just to air more of the same evil and make money off of it? No, I won't support the author.

[UtahTexan]

Honestly, the priest scandals are so hurtful my heart, that I have no desire to focus on the evil of those men. A book that focuses on that evil, is in my mind, perpetuating that evil. Don't give the devil his due, you know?

 

If it were written with an intent to improve something, that would be different, but just to air more of the same evil and make money off of it? No, I won't support the author.

 

If you have not read the book, you do not know his intent.  His intent was to inform of the downfall of the priesthood and a hope that the bringing to light of the state of the priesthood would bring about change for the better.

 

The scandal hurt us all.  The root of it even more hurtful and showed me that God had little to do with the callings.  Further, how Bishops handled it was even worse....not sure how anyone could claim that God led the Catholic Church.  Peggy Noonan, who wrote a great book about Saint JP even blamed him.

 

Then, what the Pope did with Bernard Law was simply unbelievable.

[saemo]

If you have not read the book, you do not know his intent.  His intent was to inform of the downfall of the priesthood and a hope that the bringing to light of the state of the priesthood would bring about change for the better.

 

The scandal hurt us all.  The root of it even more hurtful and showed me that God had little to do with the callings.  Further, how Bishops handled it was even worse....not sure how anyone could claim that God led the Catholic Church.  Peggy Noonan, who wrote a great book about Saint JP even blamed him.

 

Then, what the Pope did with Bernard Law was simply unbelievable.

I read the reviews, both the positive and negative, and what I come away with is that he used sources with an axe to grind in some cases and he doesn't point out the positive changes that have been made since his examples taken from 25-30 years ago, etc.

 

I know how some of the Bishops handled it, beyond unbelievable. I know still, that all is not well, entirely. But I also know, anyone who takes examples from 25-30 years ago and then doesn't continue the story, to today, where the offending seminaries have been closed, some of the priests/bishops he condemns in his book have left Catholicism, is not going for truth but for sales. Which goes to a point that was brought up here once, that they weren't acting like Catholics to begin with.

 

I think it naive to believe that the LDS church isn't harboring evil in its own way. That is not an accusation, but a statement about the human condition. What are you going to do when that day comes?

Edited April 1, 2015 by saemo

[UtahTexan]

I read the reviews, both the positive and negative, and what I come away with is that he used sources with an axe to grind in some cases and he doesn't point out the positive changes that have been made since his examples taken from 25-30 years ago, etc.

 

I know how some of the Bishops handled it, beyond unbelievable. I know still, that all is not well, entirely. But I also know, anyone who takes examples from 25-30 years ago and then doesn't continue the story, to today, where the offending seminaries have been closed, some of the priests/bishops he condemns in his book have left Catholicism, is not going for truth but for sales. Which goes to a point that was brought up here once, that they weren't acting like Catholics to begin with.

 

I think it naive to believe that the LDS church isn't harboring evil in its own way. That is not an accusation, but a statement about the human condition. What are you going to do when that day comes?

 

25 years ago?  Have you not read of the recent similar issues in other countries?

 

It is far from over.  And you should not have directed my comments back to the LDS Church...you did not like it when I did that very thing on the Catholic Board   

 

But...if you have something concrete instead of a vague accusation, please share it in a new thread  

[saemo]

25 years ago?  Have you not read of the recent similar issues in other countries?

 

It is far from over.  And you should not have directed my comments back to the LDS Church...you did not like it when I did that very thing on the Catholic Board   

 

But...if you have something concrete instead of a vague accusation, please share it in a new thread  

I'm just saying, it's going to happen.

 

Yes, I know, I do pay attention to the news.

 

What's your point? I forget. Something about fitting in with Catholicism because of being bisexual? No, that isn't anti-Catholic, not at all!!

[UtahTexan]

I'm just saying, it's going to happen.

 

Yes, I know, I do pay attention to the news.

 

What's your point? I forget. Something about fitting in with Catholicism because of being bisexual? No, that isn't anti-Catholic, not at all!!

 

So you are aware of the news and you STILL said it was 25 years ago?  smh.

 

And if you read "Goodbye Good Men", you would know why I said the condition will be understood.  It is, sadly, Catholic....at least, for now.

[saemo]

So you are aware of the news and you STILL said it was 25 years ago?  smh.

 

And if you read "Goodbye Good Men", you would know why I said the condition will be understood.  It is, sadly, Catholic....at least, for now.

I said, the review I read said he sites specific examples from 25-30 years ago that have lead to a positive resolution. The positive resolutions... the author doesn't bother to include in his book.

 

As I said, biased. Unless you have an example of the author pointing to something that has improved in 25-30 years, his book is nothing but rehashing what we already know, and hoping to make money off it.

Edited April 1, 2015 by saemo

[UtahTexan]

I said, the review I read said he sites specific examples from 25-30 years ago that have lead to a positive resolution. The positive resolutions... the author doesn't bother to include in his book.

 

As I said, biased. Unless you have an example of the author pointing to something that has improved in 25-30 years, his book is nothing but rehashing what we already know, and hoping to make money off it.

 

If you had read the things you said, you would know the Book was published 13 years ago.

 

and was spot on.  Any true Catholic would know that

 

and of you knew Michael Rose, you would not defame a fellow Catholic accusing him of greed.

 

Why would a true Catholic do that to a devout Catholic?

 

odd

Edited April 1, 2015 by CountryBoy

[saemo]

If you had read the things you said, you would know the Book was written over 10 years ago.

 

and was spot on.  Any true Catholic would know that

Oh no, any True Scot.

 

Been fun talking to you. I'll leave you to it.

[poptart]

You know, it's nothing against the mormons, I'll admit it I was just going through pure hell.  I still talk to a few of them and well, one of the biggest obsticals was the whole family oriented thing.  I just feel so out of place.  The emphasis that we're all sinners, Christ is perfect and we are all praying to him, Holy mary and the Saints to become like him and enter Heaven as the number one goal, above all else is really appealing.  I'll still go to the ocasional ward function with a few friends, but for me, especially right now this is just the best fit. 

It makes me really feel on the level with everyone around me.  RIch or poor, married or single we are all imperfect, yet through the blood of Christ, the prayers of Mary and the saints we are getting there.

[ChristKnight]

You know, it's nothing against the mormons, I'll admit it I was just going through pure hell.  I still talk to a few of them and well, one of the biggest obsticals was the whole family oriented thing.  I just feel so out of place.  The emphasis that we're all sinners, Christ is perfect and we are all praying to him, Holy mary and the Saints to become like him and enter Heaven as the number one goal, above all else is really appealing.  I'll still go to the ocasional ward function with a few friends, but for me, especially right now this is just the best fit. 

It makes me really feel on the level with everyone around me.  RIch or poor, married or single we are all imperfect, yet through the blood of Christ, the prayers of Mary and the saints we are getting there.

 

Continue to pray to God for guidance (I do the same every day ).  Yes, it is truly wonderful to know that the whole communion of saints, on earth and in Heaven, is praying for you, and you can indeed ask them all for their prayers.  And there's nothing wrong with continuing to talk and socialize with your LDS friends.  I still do (I was just catching up with an LDS buddy earlier this evening).  We're all seeking after Jesus Christ in the best ways we know how.