haggard Posted March 3, 2015 Posted March 3, 2015 The antimormons have a certain interpretation of the facts when commenting about church history. And thus the problem. One can read Rough Stone Rolling and get a faith based interpretation or one can read a critic's interpretation of the same facts. Which one to believe when it comes to interpretations? So where did the church lie? Can you tell us where the lies are? I showed that Joseph's polygamy has been in the seminary manual for decades. Likewise for the the gun in the prison. Also, the various accounts of the first vision have been published for years and years in various books sponsored by the lds church. So, you bought into the critic interpretation. And that is fine. And what is there to figure out? How did Joseph write the book of mormon? And where? And why did the witnesses confirm their spiritual experience on their deathbeds? Have you figured it all out? Here is a fact: the early lds suffered persecution upon persecution and yet, they still had faith in the person they called prophet. As did Hyrum. And from that small seed planted in New York we are now looking at a world wide church that teaches wonderful family values, values that most likely you still would teach your own children. When all is said and done, not much to figure out. Here are a few lies the LDS church teaches. We are "christian" just like you....lieJoseph was open and honest with Emma about his sleeping (sorry, being sealed) with other women and sleeping with other men's wives........lieJoseph never had any false prophecies.....lieBrigham Young started polygamy because there weren't enough men around.......lieThe Bible cannot be trusted because of an incorrect translation....lieAll churches are corrupt except "mainstream" mormonism.......lieJoseph translated the plates by the gift of God.....lieJesus is a created spirit being.......lieThomas S.Monson is a prophet....lieWe have "nothing to do with polygamy"......lie (my father is sealed to two women)In our temples we do the same things as in ancient Israel.....lieGod was once a man......God has a Dad, and a grandfather....and on and on.....lie, lie, lie There are plenty more, here are a few to chew on for a while.
why me Posted March 3, 2015 Posted March 3, 2015 Here are a few lies the LDS church teaches. We are "christian" just like you....lieJoseph was open and honest with Emma about his sleeping (sorry, being sealed) with other women and sleeping with other men's wives........lieJoseph never had any false prophecies.....lieBrigham Young started polygamy because there weren't enough men around.......lieThe Bible cannot be trusted because of an incorrect translation....lieAll churches are corrupt except "mainstream" mormonism.......lieJoseph translated the plates by the gift of God.....lieJesus is a created spirit being.......lieThomas S.Monson is a prophet....lieWe have "nothing to do with polygamy"......lie (my father is sealed to two women)In our temples we do the same things as in ancient Israel.....lieGod was once a man......God has a Dad, and a grandfather....and on and on.....lie, lie, lie There are plenty more, here are a few to chew on for a while.I have no idea what you are talking about but I am glad that you think you do. Good luck to you.
JLHPROF Posted March 3, 2015 Posted March 3, 2015 Here are a few lies the LDS church teaches. We are "christian" just like you....lie We teach we are Christian, but NOT like "you". Joseph was open and honest with Emma about his sleeping (sorry, being sealed) with other women and sleeping with other men's wives........lieCFR that the Church EVER denied these things happened. Joseph never had any false prophecies.....lieSubject to interpretation, not objective fact. Brigham Young started polygamy because there weren't enough men around.......lieOk, you got one right...that was a poor excuse. The Bible cannot be trusted because of an incorrect translation....lieYou really like to play with your words - it's not "can't be trusted", it's contains errors. All churches are corrupt except "mainstream" mormonism.......lieAnd wordplay again, not "corrupt", just not God's church. Joseph translated the plates by the gift of God.....lieSubject to faith, not objectively provable. Jesus is a created spirit being.......lieSubject to faith, not objectively provable. Thomas S.Monson is a prophet....lieSubject to faith, not objectively provable. We have "nothing to do with polygamy"......lie (my father is sealed to two women)Ok, maybe two right...although we don't as far as the world is concerned - no polygamous marriages here. In our temples we do the same things as in ancient Israel.....lieWordplay again - CFR that anyone claimed to do "the same things" as the ancient Israelites. God was once a man......God has a Dad, and a grandfather....and on and on.....lie, lie, lieSubject to faith, not objectively provable. There are plenty more, here are a few to chew on for a while. Ok, that's two CFR's. Please follow board rules and answer before making any other false claims. 2
pogi Posted March 3, 2015 Posted March 3, 2015 "Here are a few lies the LDS church teaches".....lie 3
DBMormon Posted March 3, 2015 Posted March 3, 2015 (edited) While I also feel that the answer given could be more accurate, telling someone that something said was "False and Misleading" is usually interpreted as an accusation of bearing false witness, or lying. I see no evidence here of deliberate deceitfulness, as you seem to believe. 1890 was certainly the beginning of the end. I hope you don't tell that to everyone that you believe gives information that is not precise enough for you.Is it false? yesIs it misleading? yesIs it intentional? I don't know and I didn't say it was Edited March 3, 2015 by DBMormon
DBMormon Posted March 3, 2015 Posted March 3, 2015 According to Quinn, over the next 13 years following the Manifesto, members of the Presidency published 24 denials that new plural marriages were being performed. Human indeed...that too is misleading!!!
theplains Posted March 4, 2015 Posted March 4, 2015 A 14 year old boy guilty of levity and joviality. Nobody would even consider those sins today...he probably broke a window with a rock or pulled his sisters pigtails. "During the space of time which intervened between the time I had the vision and the year eighteen hundred and twenty-three ... I was left to all kinds of temptations; and, mingling with all kinds of society, I frequently fell into many foolish errors, and displayed the weakness of youth, and the foibles of human nature; which, I am sorry to say, led me into divers temptations, offensive in the sight of God". Maybe some people would view breaking a window or pulling a girl's pigtails as offensive in the sightof God. Regards,Jim
JLHPROF Posted March 4, 2015 Posted March 4, 2015 "During the space of time which intervened between the time I had the vision and the year eighteen hundred and twenty-three ... I was left to all kinds of temptations; and, mingling with all kinds of society, I frequently fell into many foolish errors, and displayed the weakness of youth, and the foibles of human nature; which, I am sorry to say, led me into divers temptations, offensive in the sight of God". Maybe some people would view breaking a window or pulling a girl's pigtails as offensive in the sightof God. Regards,Jim I really don't know what you are saying. Joseph said he did things offensive to God. He also said they were minor in nature. What issue are you trying to make here? Are we not all sinners?
DBMormon Posted March 4, 2015 Posted March 4, 2015 I really don't know what you are saying. Joseph said he did things offensive to God. He also said they were minor in nature. What issue are you trying to make here? Are we not all sinners?and beggars before the throne!
Scott Lloyd Posted March 4, 2015 Posted March 4, 2015 (edited) The gun in prison is my favorite. Especially when I can direct "shocked" worry trolls to the Church history museum, first exhibit, first room on the right, first case... and they can see the pepper box pistol for themselves. The cover-up continues...Thanks for linking to my story. Before I saw your link, I was going to mention that the museum has been closed for year-long renovation, and that the exhibit KevinG referred to is no more. I was going to add, though, that I have been assured twice now by the museum director that the gun Joseph had in Carthage Jail will be included in the new exhibit, having already been displayed in the old one for the past 30 years. That's three decades of hiding it in plain sight in a free-admission museum in the heart of downtown Salt Lake on the Church's headquarters campus. (But that doesn't count, the trolls say, because nobody ever goes to Salt Lake City ) Of course, I never mentioned the gun in the story to which you linked. Perhaps I myself am part of the Great Coverup. Edited March 4, 2015 by Scott Lloyd 1
Danzo Posted March 4, 2015 Posted March 4, 2015 (edited) Is it false? yes I don't agree. The 1890 date is when the revelation occurred, Did all plural marriages stop then?, no (they still haven't stopped today). But if you are going to pick a date, that date is probably as good as other dates. (you could pick 1904, but plural marriages had become very rare by then, due to what happened in 1890). I think you are confusing false with imprecise. Most changes have many dates associated with them, Using one of them for convenience is not "False" Did the civil war end on April 9th, 1865 (Lees surrender), May 13th, 1865 (the battle at palmito ranch) , August 20th, 1866 (President Johnston declared hostilities over), or does it still continue today (civil rights struggles, alabama defies federal court order, south is going to rise again, etc)? I don't think someone using the first date is" false", or "misleading", there is an argument for Lees surrender being considered the end of the civil war. Just like there is an argument for the Manifesto ending polygamy in 1890. You can nit pick at it, or pick another date, but just because picking a date would be imprecise, it wouldn't necessarily be false or misleading. When I studied engineering, we learned that every measurement is imprecise. If i were to use that knowledge to question everyone's measurements you would rightly consider me an insufferable prig. Edited March 4, 2015 by Danzo 2
DBMormon Posted March 4, 2015 Posted March 4, 2015 (edited) I don't agree. The 1890 date is when the revelation occurred, Did all plural marriages stop then?, no (they still haven't stopped today). But if you are going to pick a date, that date is probably as good as other dates. (you could pick 1904, but plural marriages had become very rare by then, due to what happened in 1890).You know when people say we make mental gymnastics? this is why. The site says The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints stopped practicing plural marriage in 1890 Did the Church stop practicing Polygamy in 1890? No it didn't. This really is not that hard. To say it did stop then is Mental gymnastics. It went on for 14 more years.... so it clearly didn't stop in 1890. defending a false fact is silly The correct answer is that the polygamy they are talking about ended in 1904. That would be, based on what is being discussed, an accurate answer! Edited March 4, 2015 by DBMormon 2
JLHPROF Posted March 4, 2015 Posted March 4, 2015 (edited) You know when people say we make mental gymnastics? this is why. The site says QuoteThe Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints stopped practicing plural marriage in 1890 Did the Church stop practicing Polygamy in 1890? No it didn't. This really is not that hard. To say it did stop then is Mental gymnastics. It went on for 14 more years.... so it clearly didn't stop in 1890. defending a false fact is silly The correct answer is that the polygamy they are talking about ended in 1904. That would be based on what is being discussed, an accurate answer! Which brings us full circle back to "did God or the Church even intend for plural marriage to stop when they issued the Manifesto?"Their actions say that that was never the intent of the Manifesto. Edited March 4, 2015 by JLHPROF
Danzo Posted March 4, 2015 Posted March 4, 2015 You know when people say we make mental gymnastics? this is why. The site says Did the Church stop practicing Polygamy in 1890? No it didn't. This really is not that hard. To say it did stop then is Mental gymnastics. It went on for 14 more years.... so it clearly didn't stop in 1890. defending a false fact is silly The correct answer is that the polygamy they are talking about ended in 1904. That would be based on what is being discussed, an accurate answer! Talk about mental gymnastics, to say it ended in 1904 would be false and misleading. Future critics like yourself would be asking, "Why were they not obeying the prophet and practicing plural marriage in 1903?""What wasn't the church telling us?""why did they lie to us?""Why did they not tell us about 1890?"
Danzo Posted March 4, 2015 Posted March 4, 2015 (edited) Which brings us full circle back to "did God or the Church even intend for plural marriage to stop when they issued the Manifesto?"Their actions say that that was never the intent of the Manifesto.Whose actions? God's? Edited March 4, 2015 by Danzo
JLHPROF Posted March 4, 2015 Posted March 4, 2015 Whose actions? God's? God said to Wilford "Plural Marriage will cause the Church problems. Write & issue this Manifesto"Wilford wrote and issued this ManifestoWilford and the rest of the leaders ignored the Manifesto completely and continued allowing plural marriages Draw your own conclusion, but that's what the historical records show.
Danzo Posted March 4, 2015 Posted March 4, 2015 It went on for 14 more years It still goes on today. (Who is being false and misleading now?)
Danzo Posted March 4, 2015 Posted March 4, 2015 God said to Wilford "Plural Marriage will cause the Church problems. Write & issue this Manifesto"Wilford wrote and issued this ManifestoWilford and the rest of the leaders ignored the Manifesto completely and continued allowing plural marriages Draw your own conclusion, but that's what the historical records show. Yet plural marriages, in Utah and the rest of the church became a fraction of what it used to be. Obviously some members of the church took it seriously.
DBMormon Posted March 4, 2015 Posted March 4, 2015 It still goes on today. (Who is being false and misleading now?)not the polygamy they are talking about living persons to other living persons who are also still legally married as well and together as a couple.
JLHPROF Posted March 4, 2015 Posted March 4, 2015 Yet plural marriages, in Utah and the rest of the church became a fraction of what it used to be. Obviously some members of the church took it seriously. Yes, the ones that didn't know the true intent of the Manifesto and had never read the revelation that led to it.The Prophets and Apostles understood that polygamy was to continue.
Danzo Posted March 5, 2015 Posted March 5, 2015 Yes, the ones that didn't know the true intent of the Manifesto and had never read the revelation that led to it.The Prophets and Apostles understood that polygamy was to continue. You are accusing the vast majority of the Latter-Day saints in the 1890s of apostasy?
Danzo Posted March 5, 2015 Posted March 5, 2015 not the polygamy they are talking about living persons to other living persons who are also still legally married as well and together as a couple. You just took a "False and Misleading" Statement and clarified it a bit.I don't think what you said earlier was "false and misleading", just not as precise or accurate as it could have been. Just like I don't believe the church's answer in the new era was "false and Misleading", just not as precise or accurate as it could have been.
JLHPROF Posted March 5, 2015 Posted March 5, 2015 You are accusing the vast majority of the Latter-Day saints in the 1890s of apostasy? No, I am accusing them of choosing a lower law over a higher one. Hardly the first time. They did it with consecration and tithing too. And don't get me started on the member driven temple changes. God revoked and they received not the blessings as the D&C teaches. But that was what the majority wanted. The leaders understood and kept practicing it anyway.
DBMormon Posted March 5, 2015 Posted March 5, 2015 (edited) You just took a "False and Misleading" Statement and clarified it a bit.I don't think what you said earlier was "false and misleading", just not as precise or accurate as it could have been. Just like I don't believe the church's answer in the new era was "false and Misleading", just not as precise or accurate as it could have been.create whatever loopholes you need to but I stand by my comments. People will continue to not take us seriously if we can not even acknowledge when a fact is false. Yes polygamy to dead folks continues, yes a man divorced but still sealed can be sealed to another.,... but that is not the polygamy The public is asking about and we both should know that. Edited March 5, 2015 by DBMormon
Danzo Posted March 5, 2015 Posted March 5, 2015 No, I am accusing them of choosing a lower law over a higher one. Hardly the first time. They did it with consecration and tithing too. And don't get me started on the member driven temple changes. God revoked and they received not the blessings as the D&C teaches. But that was what the majority wanted. The leaders understood and kept practicing it anyway. That is one way of looking at itOR, you could say that the Lord wanted the practice to discontinue.He revealed it to his prophet.The vast majority of the saints felt the spirit confirm the revelationThere was some confusion and rebellion, as their often is with changes.The confusion was clarified in future revelationsIn the end, the vast majority of the church conformed to the will of the LordThose that didn't were cut off from the priesthood and went their own way.
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