Question

[KevinG]

I'm not sure why God would bother sending us apostles and prophets if what they are teaching is optional.

What they teach is optional. The natural consequences of ignoring their counsel is not.

[stemelbow]

I'm not sure why God would bother sending us apostles and prophets if what they are teaching is optional.

Well what they teach is not inerrant. As of today I have yet to see any fool proof way of being sure we're doing God's will. even personal revelation can be problematic. But that's kinda the nature of living a life of faith.

[stemelbow]

What they teach is optional. The natural consequences of ignoring their counsel is not.

Sure,. But it could be their counsel is wrong and unhelpful. God might see someone who notices such error as a faithful person--one who is willing to look to God in a personal way, over one who is willing to just assume inerrant people won't be wrong at some points.

[ksfisher]

Well what they teach is not inerrant. As of today I have yet to see any fool proof way of being sure we're doing God's will. even personal revelation can be problematic. But that's kinda the nature of living a life of faith.

 

But when we live a life of faith we choose to believe, not pick and choose to believe.  I'm not saying that the scriptures are inerrant or that prophets are perfect, but when it comes down to following the prophet or following some other path, I believe the choice is clear. 

[stemelbow]

But when we live a life of faith we choose to believe, not pick and choose to believe.  I'm not saying that the scriptures are inerrant or that prophets are perfect, but when it comes down to following the prophet or following some other path, I believe the choice is clear.

Alright. I don't think we're worlds apart in this disagreement. just some degrees, and I'm ok with that. Not sure any more 'splainin' we'll get us any further down the road to perfect harmony.

[KevinG]

Sure,. But it could be their counsel is wrong and unhelpful. God might see someone who notices such error as a faithful person--one who is willing to look to God in a personal way, over one who is willing to just assume inerrant people won't be wrong at some points.

Of course they can. Brigham himself feared people would follow blindly and not balance with personal revelation.

However it is important to remember the Lords house is a house of order. We sustain leaders and if there be errors they are on their head. We counsel to solicit greater understanding, not agitate to force changes.

It is also important to remember that while we may receive revelation for ourselves it does not give us the authority over the church as a whole.

The prophets have a pretty good track record of being right for the church as a whole, and correcting what is wrong in time.

[ksfisher]

Alright. I don't think we're worlds apart in this disagreement. just some degrees, and I'm ok with that. Not sure any more 'splainin' we'll get us any further down the road to perfect harmony.

 

No problem.

[Uncle Dale]

 

...There are gay men who choose to marry women and have families.

 

 

 

Assuming there are such people in today's LDS Church, are they

allowed to keep that aspect of their personhood a secret from the

rest of the ward/branch (except for the Bishop and counselors)?

 

I have never heard of a support group, or a message board, or

even a blog, where such "married" LDS SSA members share their

experiences and testimonies. Do such things exist today?

 

As a youngster the examples of Joseph and Hyrum were held up to

me as the best possible of examples, that I could pattern my life after.

I was also encouraged to study the lives and examples of other notable

Latter Day Saints from the past (and, I think, perhaps a Gentile or two,

such as Col. Kane).

 

For gay and lesbian LDS members who have chosen to marry the

opposite sex and raise an eternal family, what examples from the

Mormon past are suggested for their study and emulation? Who in

history has ever set the proper example? A past member of the Q12,

or perhaps a Presiding Patriarch?

 

Anybody?

 

UD

[KevinG]

Assuming there are such people in today's LDS Church, are they

allowed to keep that aspect of their personhood a secret from the

rest of the ward/branch (except for the Bishop and counselors)?

 

I have never heard of a support group, or a message board, or

even a blog, where such "married" LDS SSA members share their

experiences and testimonies. Do such things exist today?

 

UD

I have personally known a few over the last 20 years and like the rest of us they are more or less private about their intimate lives and desires.

I admit some ignorance of support groups, but the only ones I have sought were for other sins and weaknesses.

Sadly there is a television pilot out here for gays and married to women. I think like the real world MTV show this is destined for heartbreak for anyone who gets involved.

[DJBrown]

I disagree.  God's very work and glory is to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man.  He does that by providing us with physical bodies that reproduce heterosexually and are in his image.  He is clearly driven to see the earth multiplied and replenished.  (And I will refrain from bringing up the Adam-God doctrine which makes this even more clear).  Sexual "orientation" is not an eternal condition because it goes against the mission of the Gods.

But to the OP hypothesis - IF it were then eternal increase and therefore eternal progression would have to be limited.

 

See, the great evil in homosexuality is that it stops life.  It can never reproduce itself.  That makes it a form of damnation because progression is stopped.  It prevents us from fulfilling God's very first commandment to man, the one necessary for his work to continue.  It is of the same class as any other sin that prevents life and thwarts Gods work.

 

Homosexuality is part of fallen nature and like all other results of the fall it is designed to be overcome.  I do not believe for a second that any resurrected being has SSA beyond the conditioning of the fall we will all take with us.

 

If homosexuality were universally practiced, the human race would be extinct in one generation.  That should mean something.

[Uncle Dale]

I have personally known a few over the last 20 years and like the rest of us they are more or less private about their intimate lives and desires.

...

 

 

Then perhaps the leaders of the LDS Church DO allow such members

to keep that aspect of their lives a secret.

 

On the other hand, all through my life I've been told that our knowingly

holding back the truth (when asked or otherwise having to give details)

is the same thing as "living a lie."

 

The Mormons tried keeping the polygamy of a relatively scant

percentage of their population a secret (prior to 1847, often

from other members; and prior to 1852 from the rest of the world).

That attempt at providing an authorization for Church-wide

deception did not work out too well.

 

I suppose that the LDS Church ordaining a gay (living as hetero)

Apostle or Presiding Patriarch, would sooner or later "leak out"

into the history books.

 

A point to ponder.

 

UD

[JLHPROF]

If homosexuality were universally practiced, the human race would be extinct in one generation.  That should mean something.

 

Either that or we would have to conceive our children with people who weren't our spouses...and we know God just LOVES that out of wedlock illegitimate child situation.

Or perhaps we would have to rework the family structure completely so that it consisted of two homosexual males and two homosexual females to carry their children.

 

Homosexuality prevents God's work from continuing.  The more widespread it becomes, the more God's work is interfered with.  As you say, if it were universal that would be an complete end to God's work.  That alone makes it sinful enough to outlaw.

[The Nehor]

If homosexuality were universally practiced, the human race would be extinct in one generation.  That should mean something.

That homosexuality is God's way of telling us to get off the planet before we trash it even more?

[The Nehor]

For me, it is not about who has it harder or easier.  I don't think that is the issue.  There are a lot of people that have more difficult lives than either you or me.  The issue for me has to do with eternal principles and not just what happens in this life.  If you are gay, you have one choice.  Being celibate rather than marrying.  That is it.  The implication is that you will never have a family or children in this life.  

 

And the "reward" is that you get to be married to a woman for eternity.  Yippie.  Something that the gay  member was willing to live a life of celibacy because they have no interest in marrying a woman is the "promise" for eternity.  Just not a motivator for a gay member.  Sorry.  

 

if I belong in hell for finding my boyfriend, sharing my life, and loving him on this earth life, then perhaps hell is where I belong in the next, because the Celestial Kingdom doesn't sound that great.  

 

Or, if indeed, the same spirit that resides here on earth will reside in the heavens, then I am not going to have any increase there either. Can you see how this "plan of happiness"  has no happiness for me??  

 

The only way this plan of happiness can fit into current Mormon doctrine is the magic wand theory.  When you die, poof you will become straight, and you better like it.  Cause that is all we got for ya.

Great post.

If you listen to some quasi-doctrine you will find that sexual and romantic desire are limited to the highest degrees of the Celestial Kingdom so being denied companionship seems to be the fate of just about everyone who reaches the age of accountability. I remember on my mission thinking that perhaps if we told everyone that rejecting our message condemned you to being the eternal equivalent of a eunuch for all eternity we might have more success.

Joking aside though we are all left with a choice. Do you believe The Savior when he promised that he could wipe away all tears, right all wrongs, and make us happy? If we do not we grab what happiness we can. If we do then we have to trust that he can turn us into a God, drenched with joy. I am myself still hovering between the two trying to develop the faith to live the latter but often sliding to the former.

I do not know how he can deal with your dilemma and your struggle to find happiness. I do believe he can. Still, I cannot blame you for making either choice. I still do not know which side I will come down on.

[KevinG]

Then perhaps the leaders of the LDS Church DO allow such members

to keep that aspect of their lives a secret.

 

On the other hand, all through my life I've been told that our knowingly

holding back the truth (when asked or otherwise having to give details)

is the same thing as "living a lie."

UD

Really? Abraham would,have found that a false doctrine.

I'm amazed that you would expect a monogamist, polygamist, straight or gay to be forthcoming with the intimite details of their bedroom(s) because of the false teaching that no one can have privacy.

In fact I find the obsession of some with the sex lives of the Prophets rather juvenile and perverse.

To each their own.

[california boy]

Great post.

If you listen to some quasi-doctrine you will find that sexual and romantic desire are limited to the highest degrees of the Celestial Kingdom so being denied companionship seems to be the fate of just about everyone who reaches the age of accountability. I remember on my mission thinking that perhaps if we told everyone that rejecting our message condemned you to being the eternal equivalent of a eunuch for all eternity we might have more success.

Joking aside though we are all left with a choice. Do you believe The Savior when he promised that he could wipe away all tears, right all wrongs, and make us happy? If we do not we grab what happiness we can. If we do then we have to trust that he can turn us into a God, drenched with joy. I am myself still hovering between the two trying to develop the faith to live the latter but often sliding to the former.

I do not know how he can deal with your dilemma and your struggle to find happiness. I do believe he can. Still, I cannot blame you for making either choice. I still do not know which side I will come down on.

 

 

 

I have found more happiness than I ever thought possible. I feel Christ has already shown me a better path that I must follow.  I am more at peace with myself and with God than I ever was being married to a woman.  The difference for me is night and day.  My wife was a wonderful woman.  And my kids are wonderful kids. I committed to raising them until they left the house.  I have never regretted that decision.  Coming out to my family and friends was huge and not without pain and sorrow.  But I can't tell you how right that decision was for me.  

 

Knowing I was gay since I was 12, I have often pondered the promises of the Celestial Kingdom.  I have to be honest, I am not that excited about having a billion children.  And while I held leadership positions pretty much the whole time while in the church, I am not that keen on sitting in meetings.  So perhaps God always intended for me to have a different destiny.  I am not sure I want to be like God and in charge of everything.

 

 I am a very creative person.  I have made my livelihood being creative.  It is what drives me most every day.  Maybe gay children of God have a completely different purpose.  Maybe gay children of God will be the support staff for creating worlds creating the flora and fauna and what ever creative jobs that need to be done.  I would be so much more happy with that assignment over having to marry a woman and having eternal children.  

[The Nehor]

I have found more happiness than I ever thought possible. I feel Christ has already shown me a better path that I must follow.  I am more at peace with myself and with God than I ever was being married to a woman.  The difference for me is night and day.  My wife was a wonderful woman.  And my kids are wonderful kids. I committed to raising them until they left the house.  I have never regretted that decision.  Coming out to my family and friends was huge and not without pain and sorrow.  But I can't tell you how right that decision was for me.  

 

Knowing I was gay since I was 12, I have often pondered the promises of the Celestial Kingdom.  I have to be honest, I am not that excited about having a billion children.  And while I held leadership positions pretty much the whole time while in the church, I am not that keen on sitting in meetings.  So perhaps God always intended for me to have a different destiny.  I am not sure I want to be like God and in charge of everything.

 

 I am a very creative person.  I have made my livelihood being creative.  It is what drives me most every day.  Maybe gay children of God have a completely different purpose.  Maybe gay children of God will be the support staff for creating worlds creating the flora and fauna and what ever creative jobs that need to be done.  I would be so much more happy with that assignment over having to marry a woman and having eternal children.

I hope that is true. I Doubt it but I hope it is.

[Ahab]

Assuming there are such people in today's LDS Church, are they

allowed to keep that aspect of their personhood a secret from the

rest of the ward/branch (except for the Bishop and counselors)?

I have never heard of a support group, or a message board, or

even a blog, where such "married" LDS SSA members share their

experiences and testimonies. Do such things exist today?

As a youngster the examples of Joseph and Hyrum were held up to

me as the best possible of examples, that I could pattern my life after.

I was also encouraged to study the lives and examples of other notable

Latter Day Saints from the past (and, I think, perhaps a Gentile or two,

such as Col. Kane).

For gay and lesbian LDS members who have chosen to marry the

opposite sex and raise an eternal family, what examples from the

Mormon past are suggested for their study and emulation? Who in

history has ever set the proper example? A past member of the Q12,

or perhaps a Presiding Patriarch?

Anybody?

UD

I identify as gay and bi and hetero because I realize both men and women are sexually attractive. Some more than others, but all still sexually attractive. And I am a happily married man who has fond memories of a time long gone when I had sexual relations with a man, 2 men actually, other than me, as well as sexual relations with women other than the only woman I have ever married.

And the only reason I don't have sexual relations with anyone other than my wife now is because my Lord forbids it, or at least that is the main reason. I also know that the kind of relationship I have with my wife now is worth what some consider a sacrifice, now only being allowed to have sexual relations with only 1 woman.

[Uncle Dale]

Really? Abraham would,have found that a false doctrine.

...

 

If one time Abraham lied, and called his half-sister a full sister,

then that hiding of the truth rests upon his shoulders (assuming

that there ever was such a patriarch -- which has yet to be

demonstrated beyond a shadow of a doubt).

 

All I want to know is whether the sexual orientation of notable

past/present LDS figures is kept secret, and (if so) if that

practice sets the precedent for divulging (or not) the orientation

of future public figures and authority figures in the Church.

 

If anybody knows the answer, then it can be stated briefly,

and I can get back to my question about what role models

those SSA (but living as hetero) LDS members can look

to as life-examples. Citing Abraham will not do, (I think).

 

UD

[KevinG]

I identify as gay and bi and hetero because I realize both men and women are sexually attractive. Some more than others, but all still sexually attractive. And I am a happily married man who has fond memories of a time long gone when I had sexual relations with a man, 2 men actually, other than me, as well as sexual relations with women other than the only woman I have ever married.

And the only reason I don't have sexual relations with anyone other than my wife now is because my Lord forbids it, or at least that is the main reason. I also know that the kind of relationship I have with my wife now is worth what some consider a sacrifice, now only being allowed to have sexual relations with only 1 woman.

There are no more militant heterosexual monogamists than those converted to it. (Joke...)

[KevinG]

If one time Abraham lied, and called his half-sister a full sister,

then that hiding of the truth rests upon his shoulders (assuming

that there ever was such a patriarch -- which has yet to be

demonstrated beyond a shadow of a doubt).

All I want to know is whether the sexual orientation of notable

past/present LDS figures is kept secret, and (if so) if that

practice sets the precedent for divulging (or not) the orientation

of future public figures and authority figures in the Church.

If anybody knows the answer, then it can be stated briefly,

and I can get back to my question about what role models

those SSA (but living as hetero) LDS members can look

to as life-examples. Citing Abraham will not do, (I think).

UD

Gays are a small minority in the general population. It is doubtful they were significantly represented in the LDS church hierarchy, especially since strict adherence to chastity is a condition of our worthiness (and completely private unless confessing a sin to the bishop.)

Go to the mormonsandgays.org website for role models of people who are gay and remain faithful in the church.

You are into hypothetical land again.

Edited February 20, 2015 by KevinG

[Uncle Dale]

I identify as gay and bi and hetero...

 

 

I have no need to inquire very deeply into your personal history

(beyond that which you care to share openly), but I do have a

question, that other participants here may find it hard to answer.

 

If a young gay or lesbian member came to you, and sought your

advice, as to which Church leaders or Church social service

professionals might be consulted, for their "otherness," could

you offer useful advice? Are there official support groups?

 

How does such a member change his/her attraction instincts,

so as to be "seeking" (I won't use other, more explicit words)

the company of the opposite sex for intimacy and procreation?

 

UD

[KevinG]

not Ahab, but I'd suggest they find any trusted counselor, parent, or ecclesiastical leader that can help them live according to their beliefs, in or out of the church.

Bishops are not psychologists and psychologists are not Bishops. Unless they are.

[Uncle Dale]

...

You are into hypothetical land again.

 

OK. then, I'll go ahead and ask one of the questions in my

thoughts at the moment.

 

(If the mods wish to delete this posting, for exceeding board 

guidelines, I'll understand.)

 

In 1942 the third-to-the-last LDS Presiding Patriarch was

released and replaced by another notable leader. Following

his four years in office, the position was filled by the last

officiating Church Patriarch.

 

Might all three of those gentlemen be qualified as acceptable

examples for young LDS members to look to, as potential

lifestyle role models? -- and, if so, would there be any one

among those three leaders whose life could offer an example

for today's SSA (but living as hetero) members?

 

UD

[KevinG]

We're they released because of, or publicly known to have Same Sex Attraction?

If so the only difficulty I can think of is again publishing intimate details of their lives without them being around to speak for themselves.

Someone dealing with it in the current day would be a more powerful resource IMO.