KevinG Posted February 19, 2015 Posted February 19, 2015 Edited-"If I had to choose homosexuality...""If I had to choose, homosexuality..."Commas matter! 1
teddyaware Posted February 19, 2015 Posted February 19, 2015 Sure. That's possible. But it kind makes one wonder, then why treat Homosexuality as such a terrible sin? it'll stop after this life anyway. It may not really be hurting anyone's spiritual self. If the way the Church handles the issue today is any indication, then it surely does injure one's spiritual self to ACT upon SSA sexual impulses. Unless, as the Saviour said, one with SSA makes himself a eunuch (figuratively speaking) for the kingdom of heaven's sake, then the relegation to a lower kingdom of glory seems inevitable. I would presume that those who remain faithful and true to the Gospel and the law of Chastity will be given the power to be exalted in the highest degree in the celestial kingdom. Compare the glory of the noonday sun to the lesser glory of a distant star. It could make a very big difference... 1
stemelbow Posted February 19, 2015 Author Posted February 19, 2015 Many may have thought the reasoning was revealed or at least inspired. They were wrong. Correction has been made. And so it may be. Correction that homosexuality is not a sin may be coming. I suppose that may make some members think the prophets and apostles should have all been taken out long ago, but this type of mistake has happened before and we made it.
The Nehor Posted February 19, 2015 Posted February 19, 2015 I've noticed a seriousness about any sins related to creation of life and ending life. However there is some hypocrisy in thinking serial monogamy (divorce and remarriage), or fatherlessness, is any less appalling than the choice to cohabitate with a same sex partner and not have physical offspring. In all cases the eternal consequences of what we choose in mortality can be serious. If I had to choose homosexuality in a monogamous, dedicated relationship, would rank much lower on my moral outrage scale than the abandonment of a family by a father who decided he could do better with a new honey.I concur but then the older I get the less inclined I am to rank sins. We have sinning against the Holy Ghost, murder, and whatever Corianton (who was possibly married) got up to as very serious.I fear the reason so many strongly condemn homosexuality is that it is a temptation most never face. If you condemn gossip or lying or lust then you have to be careful as you are condemning yourself in part as you have faced those temptations and possibly succumbed. With homosexuality they can vilify to their heart's content sure in the knowledge that they will never slip into that iniquity and God and man punishing it harshly will be no problem for them. 4
Ahab Posted February 19, 2015 Posted February 19, 2015 How many times does it need to be said???There is nothing wrong with being gay. Nothing at all. To be gay is to think and feel or in other words "realize" that someone of the same sex as you is sexually attractive, and there is nothing at all that is wrong with that. It's just not good to have sexual relations with someone of the same sex.I hope you now understand what the problem is. 1
The Nehor Posted February 19, 2015 Posted February 19, 2015 God can do this without us you know. Better that we should have the opportunity to learn to be like Him. That is the whole point of this plan we are under.(Boy I hope you are just trolling me!)Indeed it is but second-guessing commandments given by prophets and apostles is not an approved method learning to be like him. 2
The Nehor Posted February 19, 2015 Posted February 19, 2015 And so it may be. Correction that homosexuality is not a sin may be coming. I suppose that may make some members think the prophets and apostles should have all been taken out long ago, but this type of mistake has happened before and we made it.It might though I doubt it.If it does then the commandment is rescinded. It does not justify disobedience now. I was out with the missionaries last week and discovered a universal rule for missionaries was no longer in place. I doubt God or my Mission President would be amused if I could tell my younger self the rule was going to change and my younger self ignored the rule by saying that change was inevitable. 1
KevinG Posted February 19, 2015 Posted February 19, 2015 Indeed it is but second-guessing commandments given by prophets and apostles is not an approved method learning to be like him.Correct. There is that whole "house of order" thing. What the critics of our gradual growth forget is, Running ahead of the train before it has left the station is not going to get you to your destination faster.
stemelbow Posted February 19, 2015 Author Posted February 19, 2015 How many times does it need to be said??? There is nothing wrong with being gay. Nothing at all. To be gay is to think and feel or in other words "realize" that someone of the same sex as you is sexually attractive, and there is nothing at all that is wrong with that. It's just not good to have sexual relations with someone of the same sex. I hope you now understand what the problem is. Did someone argue against this? Not sure where this is coming from.
Sleeper Cell Posted February 19, 2015 Posted February 19, 2015 What if sexual orientation was an eternal component of a particular person?I think we dare not go there. I'm sure plenty will say, "no way...I know it".but it's possible.If it were eternal and people who are gay will always be so, perhaps we are really wrong about how the practice is seen in God's eyes. It's not like we haven't been wrong before.Why stop there? What if gender, itself, is not eternal? Perhaps the traditional interpretation of Jesus’ answer to the Sadducees (Matt 22:23-30) is correct. Marriage ends at death because we shall be like the angels in heaven -- without gender.
stemelbow Posted February 19, 2015 Author Posted February 19, 2015 Indeed it is but second-guessing commandments given by prophets and apostles is not an approved method learning to be like him. Maybe no approved but it could be a way to learn to be like Him, at least in some cases. For instance, I don't go around thinking, nor do many members from what I've seen, that doing the M word leads to homosexuality.
stemelbow Posted February 19, 2015 Author Posted February 19, 2015 It might though I doubt it. If it does then the commandment is rescinded. It does not justify disobedience now. I was out with the missionaries last week and discovered a universal rule for missionaries was no longer in place. I doubt God or my Mission President would be amused if I could tell my younger self the rule was going to change and my younger self ignored the rule by saying that change was inevitable. it justifies it in this way. Perhaps individual people have revelation from God suggesting homosexual activity is not a sin.
stemelbow Posted February 19, 2015 Author Posted February 19, 2015 Why stop there? What if gender, itself, is not eternal? Perhaps the traditional interpretation of Jesus’ answer to the Sadducees (Matt 22:23-30) is correct. Marriage ends at death because we shall be like the angels in heaven -- without gender. Ya gotta stop somewhere. I dont' see how we get away from gender being eternal.
The Nehor Posted February 19, 2015 Posted February 19, 2015 Maybe no approved but it could be a way to learn to be like Him, at least in some cases. For instance, I don't go around thinking, nor do many members from what I've seen, that doing the M word leads to homosexuality.Seeking further light and knowledge and prophecy about the future is almost always approved unless God tells you, as he did Joseph Smith on at least one occasion, to stop asking about something. If you have such knowledge though you are to hold it in trust for your own edification until the oracles of God are instructed to make it public. 2
KevinG Posted February 19, 2015 Posted February 19, 2015 Ya gotta stop somewhere. I dont' see how we get away from gender being eternal.This notion makes the 1995 Proclaimation on the Family look quite prophetic. 1
The Nehor Posted February 19, 2015 Posted February 19, 2015 it justifies it in this way. Perhaps individual people have revelation from God suggesting homosexual activity is not a sin.Even if it is not vile in the eyes of God it is currently forbidden. One who was in such a position would be like the Nephites who understood the purpose of the Law of Moses and saw Christ in it. The law became dead to them but they still had to keep the commandments of the Law until instructed otherwise.
JLHPROF Posted February 19, 2015 Posted February 19, 2015 While gender is eternal, the drive to "multiply and replenish the earth" may not be. I disagree. God's very work and glory is to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man. He does that by providing us with physical bodies that reproduce heterosexually and are in his image. He is clearly driven to see the earth multiplied and replenished. (And I will refrain from bringing up the Adam-God doctrine which makes this even more clear). Sexual "orientation" is not an eternal condition because it goes against the mission of the Gods.But to the OP hypothesis - IF it were then eternal increase and therefore eternal progression would have to be limited. See, the great evil in homosexuality is that it stops life. It can never reproduce itself. That makes it a form of damnation because progression is stopped. It prevents us from fulfilling God's very first commandment to man, the one necessary for his work to continue. It is of the same class as any other sin that prevents life and thwarts Gods work. Homosexuality is part of fallen nature and like all other results of the fall it is designed to be overcome. I do not believe for a second that any resurrected being has SSA beyond the conditioning of the fall we will all take with us. 2
california boy Posted February 19, 2015 Posted February 19, 2015 I've noticed a seriousness about any sins related to creation of life and ending life. However there is some hypocrisy in thinking serial monogamy (divorce and remarriage), or fatherlessness, is any less appalling than the choice to cohabitate with a same sex partner and not have physical offspring. In all cases the eternal consequences of what we choose in mortality can be serious. If I had to choose, homosexuality in a monogamous, dedicated relationship, would rank much lower on my moral outrage scale than the abandonment of a family by a father who decided he could do better with a new honey. Given the seriousness about any sins related to creation of life and ending life, if this is the reason for homosexuality being such a big sin, would it be just as big of sin for a straight couple to decide to not have children as a gay couple to be together?? Interesting question. I wonder what the difference really is to God other than the social attitudes towards homosexuality if that is the core reason against homosexuality. 1
JLHPROF Posted February 19, 2015 Posted February 19, 2015 it justifies it in this way. Perhaps individual people have revelation from God suggesting homosexual activity is not a sin. The issue of sin/not sin really is a red herring. Homosexuality isn't a sin because "God doesn't approve". It is considered a sin because it violates eternal order.The idea that someone can receive revelation saying it is good OR bad, that God hates it or is ok with it, is not the issue of homosexuality.The issue is that by it's very nature, homosexuality falls outside the order of the (unfallen) universe. That's not just about sin - God doesn't approve, but about the higher definition of sin - an immutable law is being violated. 1
california boy Posted February 19, 2015 Posted February 19, 2015 Even if it is not vile in the eyes of God it is currently forbidden. One who was in such a position would be like the Nephites who understood the purpose of the Law of Moses and saw Christ in it. The law became dead to them but they still had to keep the commandments of the Law until instructed otherwise. The question becomes, WHY is it forbidden.
The Nehor Posted February 19, 2015 Posted February 19, 2015 Given the seriousness about any sins related to creation of life and ending life, if this is the reason for homosexuality being such a big sin, would it be just as big of sin for a straight couple to decide to not have children as a gay couple to be together?? Interesting question. I wonder what the difference really is to God other than the social attitudes towards homosexuality if that is the core reason against homosexuality.I suspect the heterosexual couple may be in more danger but rating sins is spiritually dangerous. There may be mitigating cricumstances like fear of passing on a genetic disease or coming from a cycle of abuse and fear of perpetuating it, or even a flaw in one or both parents that makes them detest children. None of these justify the decision in the same way I do not believe having SSA justifies homosexual activity out of a fear of loneliness or missing out on a vital part of life. Severity of sin is less important then repenting of them. 3
KevinG Posted February 19, 2015 Posted February 19, 2015 (edited) Given the seriousness about any sins related to creation of life and ending life, if this is the reason for homosexuality being such a big sin, would it be just as big of sin for a straight couple to decide to not have children as a gay couple to be together?? Interesting question. I wonder what the difference really is to God other than the social attitudes towards homosexuality if that is the core reason against homosexuality.I would think so if the wages of sin are the losses we choose. Voluntarily giving up an eternal heritage for any reason would have serious consequences.As far as attitudes towards homosexuality, I will refer to a study done by John Dehlin* and his colleagues. They found that homosexual LDS children were more likely to commit suicide than the general population of homosexuals, if shunned by their families, yet less likely to commit suicide than their peers when the families showed love and support, even when they disagreed with their choices. Without compromising our doctrines and practices, it is our duty to love and support others even in our differences. I plan to dine with Christ at the fun table with all of the lepers, tax collectors, and shady ladies.*anybody surprised by me citing Dehlin? Edited February 19, 2015 by KevinG
california boy Posted February 19, 2015 Posted February 19, 2015 I disagree. God's very work and glory is to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man. He does that by providing us with physical bodies that reproduce heterosexually and are in his image. He is clearly driven to see the earth multiplied and replenished. (And I will refrain from bringing up the Adam-God doctrine which makes this even more clear). Sexual "orientation" is not an eternal condition because it goes against the mission of the Gods.But to the OP hypothesis - IF it were then eternal increase and therefore eternal progression would have to be limited. See, the great evil in homosexuality is that it stops life. It can never reproduce itself. That makes it a form of damnation because progression is stopped. It prevents us from fulfilling God's very first commandment to man, the one necessary for his work to continue. It is of the same class as any other sin that prevents life and thwarts Gods work. Homosexuality is part of fallen nature and like all other results of the fall it is designed to be overcome. I do not believe for a second that any resurrected being has SSA beyond the conditioning of the fall we will all take with us. Doesn't being gay in this earth life go against the plan of God as well? Doesn't being gay stop life on earth as well? Causing someone to be attracted to the opposite sex is what ends life. Being celibate ends life. It can also never reproduce itself. Is that also against the plan of God?
JLHPROF Posted February 19, 2015 Posted February 19, 2015 Given the seriousness about any sins related to creation of life and ending life, if this is the reason for homosexuality being such a big sin, would it be just as big of sin for a straight couple to decide to not have children as a gay couple to be together?? Interesting question. I wonder what the difference really is to God other than the social attitudes towards homosexuality if that is the core reason against homosexuality. That is actually a very good question. Those who are married in the temple are commanded to multiply and replenish the earth. If a straight couple elects (fertility issues aside) to refuse to have children, they are breaking that commandment, therefore sinning.They are also interfering with God's work and glory, his raison d'etre.So how does that compare to homosexuality...there are definite similarities. I believe both are sinful, but to what degree?Both reject blessings of the Lord, both violate the natural design of God, both attempt to slow Gods work. I'm not prepared to say they are equal in wrongness, but there is a definite similarity. 1
The Nehor Posted February 19, 2015 Posted February 19, 2015 The question becomes, WHY is it forbidden.I do not know. There is reasoning given. We just got one:The issue of sin/not sin really is a red herring. Homosexuality isn't a sin because "God doesn't approve". It is considered a sin because it violates eternal order.The idea that someone can receive revelation saying it is good OR bad, that God hates it or is ok with it, is not the issue of homosexuality.The issue is that by it's very nature, homosexuality falls outside the order of the (unfallen) universe. That's not just about sin - God doesn't approve, but about the higher definition of sin - an immutable law is being violated.It is possible it is right. I find some reasons more convincing then others. The reasons are less important then the choice between obedience and disobedience. I do think we should try to discover the reasons for the commandments but if we hold them hostage to our understanding of why they exist it can quickly turn that God-approved search into the devil-prescribed searching for reasons to break the commandments.We are also told we will not have many of our "why" questions answered in this life. This may be one of them. I can say I have not yet been given a reason. I have suspicians but no revelation to back it up.
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