JLHPROF Posted February 19, 2015 Posted February 19, 2015 Doesn't being gay in this earth life go against the plan of God as well? Yes Doesn't being gay stop life on earth as well? Not stops, but reduces Causing someone to be attracted to the opposite sex is what ends life. Being celibate ends life. It can also never reproduce itself. Is that also against the plan of God? Yes, if it's voluntary.
california boy Posted February 19, 2015 Posted February 19, 2015 I suspect the heterosexual couple may be in more danger but rating sins is spiritually dangerous. There may be mitigating cricumstances like fear of passing on a genetic disease or coming from a cycle of abuse and fear of perpetuating it, or even a flaw in one or both parents that makes them detest children. None of these justify the decision in the same way I do not believe having SSA justifies homosexual activity out of a fear of loneliness or missing out on a vital part of life. Severity of sin is less important then repenting of them.why? Isn't companionship a very real human condition? Does the need of companionship comes from God? Or is it part of the fallen state. 1
Uncle Dale Posted February 19, 2015 Posted February 19, 2015 ...Homosexuality is part of fallen nature and like all other results of the fall it is designed to be overcome. ... Listening to late night radio, a Focus on the Family wannabe evangelistprovided me with this Divine (?) insight. Homosexuality has nothing to do with genetics,nor with brain physiology, nor anything inborn. It is the conscious decision to disobey the God ofthe Bible and to knowingly lead others into theeternal damnation set aside particularly for that sin. That seems to be pretty strong language, from myperspective (having encountered same-sex attractioninstances as far afield as the remote borders of Tibet). But, even if the preacher's hyperbole was meant forthe audiences of "Christian" countries, I was curiousto understand where his conclusion of a "consciousdecision" came from? In the case of the LDS, haven't they progressed fromsuch "conscious decision" prejudices of the past, tonowadays saying that only the act is a decision andnot the predisposition (which indeed may be inborn)? Which raises the question in my mind of why anyDivine Progenitor would send same-sex attractedspirit children to earth in the first place, accompaniedby the free will/agency to act upon that attraction asadults -- and not have provided detailed counsel insacred scripture for these poor devils. ??? UD
KevinG Posted February 19, 2015 Posted February 19, 2015 It is worth remembering that our sense of outrage over favorite sins is an error itself. God cannot look upon sin with the least degree of allowance." D&C 1:31If we love others more or less because of our favorite sins, or deny others agency based on favorite sins, we are breaking great commandments.That is the reason, along with a true respect and love for my own homosexual friends, that I have asked God "why" and tried to come to grips with separating my own prejudice from the doctrines of His Gospel which I beleive. I can disagree with others without being a bigot. This is what will also keep me sane if I ever find out I was mistaken in my understanding of doctrines. 1
JLHPROF Posted February 19, 2015 Posted February 19, 2015 Which raises the question in my mind of why anyDivine Progenitor would send same-sex attractedspirit children to earth in the first place, accompaniedby the free will/agency to act upon that attraction asadults -- and not have provided detailed counsel insacred scripture for these poor devils. Why does God create people with SSA? I don't know. Why does God create people with vicious tempers, insane jealousy, foolish pride, selfish hearts? We are fallen and imperfect. We have our agency to hold on to those imperfections or to attempt to overcome them. Some will travel with us into the resurrection, but they will limit our progression. And we will still have to answer for our actions here under their influence. If I lose my temper and beat someone I have to answer for that sin. If a person, heterosexual or homosexual doesn't control their sexual feelings and participates in sinful act they will answer for that too. 2
stemelbow Posted February 19, 2015 Author Posted February 19, 2015 The issue of sin/not sin really is a red herring. Homosexuality isn't a sin because "God doesn't approve". It is considered a sin because it violates eternal order. The idea that someone can receive revelation saying it is good OR bad, that God hates it or is ok with it, is not the issue of homosexuality. The issue is that by it's very nature, homosexuality falls outside the order of the (unfallen) universe. That's not just about sin - God doesn't approve, but about the higher definition of sin - an immutable law is being violated. How is it out of the order of the unfallen universe? Are you just guessing? Perhaps it is in the eternal order.
stemelbow Posted February 19, 2015 Author Posted February 19, 2015 Even if it is not vile in the eyes of God it is currently forbidden. Forbidden by the Church does not equate to forbidden by God. While the Church may be right about God's desires it also may be wrong.
JLHPROF Posted February 19, 2015 Posted February 19, 2015 How is it out of the order of the unfallen universe? Are you just guessing? Perhaps it is in the eternal order. I've already explained this in post 42 .No guessing necessary.
california boy Posted February 19, 2015 Posted February 19, 2015 Doesn't being gay in this earth life go against the plan of God as well? Yes Doesn't being gay stop life on earth as well? Not stops, but reduces Causing someone to be attracted to the opposite sex is what ends life. Being celibate ends life. It can also never reproduce itself. Is that also against the plan of God? Yes, if it's voluntary. So simply getting the gay card in this life not only screws you for eternity but also, no matter what you do, choose a partner or choose celibacy, you are condemned for not fulfilling the commandment to multiply and replenish the earth. That sucks.
JLHPROF Posted February 19, 2015 Posted February 19, 2015 So simply getting the gay card in this life not only screws you for eternity but also, no matter what you do, choose a partner or choose celibacy, you are condemned for not fulfilling the commandment to multiply and replenish the earth. That sucks. Truthfully, it probably does. But then overcoming ANY personal weakness is a sucky process. You'll have to ask God why he gives men weaknesses. 1
Ahab Posted February 19, 2015 Posted February 19, 2015 Did someone argue against this? Not sure where this is coming from.The OP started with a question about "what if" people are born gay, and I was simply pointing out that it's not a problem if they were because the problem is not about being gay.
The Nehor Posted February 19, 2015 Posted February 19, 2015 why? Isn't companionship a very real human condition? Does the need of companionship comes from God? Or is it part of the fallen state.The need for companionship is good but like just about everything in this life the devil can use it to create codependent relationships, abusive relationships, and pain and suffering of all kinds.That is not what we are talking about though. Sometimes we have to go without things we want. I want to be married and have children but have failed to this point and may never have the opportunity in this life. At one point I wanted it so badly I ended up in an unhealthy relationship and it took God doing the revelatory equivalent of screaming at me, reminding me of my covenants to obey, and calling me to fulfil that covenant to obey NOW.It hurts but sometimes God requires us to live in unpleasant circumstances with unfulfilled desires, even righteous unfulfilled desires. Perhaps there is something wrong with me in this fallen state that means it should not happen. I don't know.I don't know about homosexuality either. 1
stemelbow Posted February 19, 2015 Author Posted February 19, 2015 So simply getting the gay card in this life not only screws you for eternity but also, no matter what you do, choose a partner or choose celibacy, you are condemned for not fulfilling the commandment to multiply and replenish the earth. That sucks. I think the suckiness of this demonstrates the error of his thinking, or at least the possible error.
stemelbow Posted February 19, 2015 Author Posted February 19, 2015 The OP started with a question about "what if" people are born gay, and I was simply pointing out that it's not a problem if they were because the problem is not about being gay. the question had nothing to do with people being born gay.
The Nehor Posted February 19, 2015 Posted February 19, 2015 Forbidden by the Church does not equate to forbidden by God. While the Church may be right about God's desires it also may be wrong.Yet the scriptures tell us to obey our religious leaders. If it is sin it is on their heads.So simply getting the gay card in this life not only screws you for eternity but also, no matter what you do, choose a partner or choose celibacy, you are condemned for not fulfilling the commandment to multiply and replenish the earth. That sucks.Yeah, it does but life in general sucks. The only consolation I have found is that if we endure it well it is also the worst that eternity will ever get.I believe you do get a pass on obeying that commandment if you are not emotionally capable of doing so. We just do the best we can and pray for enough foretastes of the joys of heaven to keep on trucking on. 2
Ahab Posted February 19, 2015 Posted February 19, 2015 What if sexual orientation was an eternal component of a particular person?I think we dare not go there. I'm sure plenty will say, "no way...I know it".but it's possible.If it were eternal and people who are gay will always be so, perhaps we are really wrong about how the practice is seen in God's eyes. It's not like we haven't been wrong before.this question has nothing to do with people who are, or may be, born gay???Heh, okay, since you say so. Sheesh.
KevinG Posted February 19, 2015 Posted February 19, 2015 (edited) why? Isn't companionship a very real human condition? Does the need of companionship comes from God? Or is it part of the fallen state.Love is a positive thing. How we express love, and balance our current desires with our long term (eternal) blessings is not as easy as feeling a need for companionship. I cannot fathom the difficulty of having a strong attraction for someone of my own gender, yet I have refrained from intimacy with those I'm very attracted to emotionally, and yes physically, because they were not mine to love in that way. My love and duty to the family God ordained as mine is most important. I teach my children love is a verb. An action. Not something you fall in and out of. Attraction or need for companionship can be expressed in ways that help us, or harm us eternally. I imagine same sex attraction vs. Christian/Mormon doctrine is a wrenching choice, but not morally different than many choices all of us make every day to deny the natural man in favor of spiritual growth.Acting on our urges should not be considered a worse sin because it is socially unacceptable in the church, or less of a sin because it becomes socially acceptable outside the church. Edited February 19, 2015 by KevinG 1
Ahab Posted February 19, 2015 Posted February 19, 2015 People can have the companionship of other people whether of the same sex or the opposite sex. There is no problem with that. The problem is when people have sexual relations with people of the same sex.I hope you now understand what the problem is.
Uncle Dale Posted February 19, 2015 Posted February 19, 2015 Why does God create people with SSA? I don't know. Why does God create people with vicious tempers, insane jealousy, foolish pride, selfish hearts? We are fallen and imperfect. We have our agency to hold on to those imperfections or to attempt to overcome them. Some will travel with us into the resurrection, but they will limit our progression. And we will still have to answer for our actions here under their influence. If I lose my temper and beat someone I have to answer for that sin. If a person, heterosexual or homosexual doesn't control their sexual feelings and participates in sinful act they will answer for that too. OK -- I can kinda comprehend that. The angry child may be taught to think and behavedifferently (at least many of them can, with or withoutprescribed meds). And at least a few fools can beeducated and graduate into the ranks of the wise. But, how does a twelve-year-old "tomboy" ever developan attraction toward the opposite sex? I'm told that someof the Evangelicals have prayer and therapy programsdesigned to do just that -- based upon scripture teachings. And yet, I'm not convinced that such holy deprogrammingactually works. What's the alternative? The angry person avoids anger?The foolish person avoids being fooled? The gay personjoins a convent and forgets her "tomboy" childhood? Seems convoluted and unreasonable to me. UD
pogi Posted February 19, 2015 Posted February 19, 2015 What if sexual orientation was an eternal component of a particular person?I think we dare not go there. I'm sure plenty will say, "no way...I know it".but it's possible.If it were eternal and people who are gay will always be so, perhaps we are really wrong about how the practice is seen in God's eyes. It's not like we haven't been wrong before. As Uncle Dale has already pointed out, the "what if" goes both ways. The question is, SHOULD we change church policy to include gay ordination and give them full rights and privilleges based on a "what if"?Given what we do know about the plan of salvation and eternal progression and the role of children in it, I don't see any room for change. Based on what we do know, I would suggest that, no, we should not change based on a "what if". That would require a revelation, and I would not suggest the route of starting an "ordain gays" movement in an effort to influence the brethren to pray about it. The Lord will sort all things out in the end. We do the best we can with what we have, and the Lord will deal out justice where it is deserved and mercy where it is deserved, and all things will be in balance in the end. He will make wrongs right, and reward those who have suffered wrongfully with a perfect reconciliation.
stemelbow Posted February 19, 2015 Author Posted February 19, 2015 Yet the scriptures tell us to obey our religious leaders. If it is sin it is on their heads. Sure, generally speak we should. But we should also be able to test the things they say, question whether it works, pray about things and determine for ourselves what is best. As I said, it's not like I go around thinking someone who does the M word is turning hisself gay or something. That religious leader's idea is laughable these days.
The Nehor Posted February 19, 2015 Posted February 19, 2015 People can have the companionship of other people whether of the same sex or the opposite sex. There is no problem with that. The problem is when people have sexual relations with people of the same sex.I hope you now understand what the problem is.Thank you Captain Obvious. 1
california boy Posted February 19, 2015 Posted February 19, 2015 Truthfully, it probably does. But then overcoming ANY personal weakness is a sucky process. You'll have to ask God why he gives men weaknesses. Yes but "overcoming" being gay, which has been defined by the church as being celibacy in this life still puts you out of sync with one of the very fundamental eternal principles of multiply and replenish the earth and the eternal nature of the family. Some have even stated that this is the most important part of our life here on earth. It also goes against the instruction that it is not good for man to be alone. Being gay puts one in violation of those commandments no matter how faithful you are. I can't think of another "weakness" that no matter what you do, you are in violation of the will of God.
california boy Posted February 19, 2015 Posted February 19, 2015 The OP started with a question about "what if" people are born gay, and I was simply pointing out that it's not a problem if they were because the problem is not about being gay.but it is.
The Nehor Posted February 19, 2015 Posted February 19, 2015 Sure, generally speak we should. But we should also be able to test the things they say, question whether it works, pray about things and determine for ourselves what is best. As I said, it's not like I go around thinking someone who does the M word is turning hisself gay or something. That religious leader's idea is laughable these days.As that is a reason for avoiding masturbation and not the commandment itself it falls under my "treat reasoning for the commandments with skepticism even if it comes from apostles" clause. 1
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