What Is Punishment? And Why Is It Inflicted?

[Uncle Dale]

A thought crossed my mind recently, while reading an 1827 would-be

justification of the murder of William Morgan (whose widow became

the wife of a prominent Mormon at Far West, and reportedly also the

plural wife of Joseph Smith, jr.)

 

The old article goes on, at some length, discussing the concept of

punishment for transgression, and its basis in scripture, law and reason.

 

But I'm not satisfied with those old explanations (written primarily for

a Protestant audience favoring 19th century Freemasonry, etc.)

 

Suppose, that moments following my baptism and confirmation, whilst

fully sinless, and "white as the driven snow" in the eyes of Divine Justice,

my mind wanders into imagining the murder of my neighbor, Bill Morgan.

 

Even if I were to quickly dismiss this morbid fantasy, and conclude never

to consider it again -- I have sinned -- and, without timely repentance,

have broken my baptismal covenant.

 

 

Supposing that to be the case, why do my bad thoughts merit punishment?

 

What is the nature of punishment?

Wherein does the idea itself arise?

 

 

1. As a vehicle of Justice, to balance out the effects of my unjust act?

 

2. As an element of potential atonement, to restore my personal worthiness?

 

3. For righteous vengeance sake, to assauge the anger of "authority" above me?

 

4. For vengeance sake, simply to cause my suffering, without need of explanation?

 

5. To act as a deterrent -- as an example to myself and others, not to transgress?

 

 

What thoughts have you, forum friends?

 

UD

[thesometimesaint]

A thought crossed my mind recently, while reading an 1827 would-be

justification of the murder of William Morgan (whose widow became

the wife of a prominent Mormon at Far West, and reportedly also the

plural wife of Joseph Smith, jr.)

 

The old article goes on, at some length, discussing the concept of

punishment for transgression, and its basis in scripture, law and reason.

 

But I'm not satisfied with those old explanations (written primarily for

a Protestant audience favoring 19th century Freemasonry, etc.)

 

Suppose, that moments following my baptism and confirmation, whilst

fully sinless, and "white as the driven snow" in the eyes of Divine Justice,

my mind wanders into imagining the murder of my neighbor, Bill Morgan.

 

Even if I were to quickly dismiss this morbid fantasy, and conclude never

to consider it again -- I have sinned -- and, without timely repentance,

have broken my baptismal covenant.

 

 

Supposing that to be the case, why do my bad thoughts merit punishment?

 

What is the nature of punishment?

Wherein does the idea itself arise?

 

 

1. As a vehicle of Justice, to balance out the effects of my unjust act?

 

2. As an element of potential atonement, to restore my personal worthiness?

 

3. For righteous vengeance sake, to assauge the anger of "authority" above me?

 

4. For vengeance sake, simply to cause my suffering, without need of explanation?

 

5. To act as a deterrent -- as an example to myself and others, not to transgress?

 

 

What thoughts have you, forum friends?

 

UD

 

While on this world we are punished for our acts, and we pretty much leave thoughts alone. In the eternities what we think has a much bigger influence on the who we have, and want to, become.

[Uncle Dale]

While on this world we are punished for our acts...

 

This leads directly into the question of how much punishment

is commensurate with mine own measure iniquity?

 

One school of thought says that just one unrepented sin is

enough to incur eternal damnation -- and, even if my suffering

be mild, in some less than hellish realm, it still ends up being

infinite. Any measure of punishment, inflicted eternally, results

in an infinite suffering.

 

Another school of thought says, "why worry? - be happy!" -- 

that even the worst of the worst will be raised to the realms of

bliss, once God's righteous wrath has cooled down a little. But

it seems unjust that both Josef Stalin and my humble self thus

gain the same measure of eternal happiness, after an unequal

quantity of transgression. (President Smith's father reportedly

once professed Universalism, until reading the Nephite Record).

 

Still others inform me that a divine "plan of salvation" was set

in motion ere ever I was created a spirit-entity. And that I became

eligible for damnation only after the clock struck midnight, eight

years, precisely, after I left the womb.

 

Or, there is a tele-evangelist pontificating on late-night TV, asking

for my donations, and telling me that I became "a person" and

"a sinner" immediately upon conception -- and having been thus

conceived in sin (and not joining his particular sect) I again face

eternity alongside Dante's worst examples of blatant evil-doers.

 

If Pilate asks "what is truth?" then I must ask "what is punishment?"

 

Come on baby, make it hurt so good

Sometimes love don't feel like it should...

 

UD

[The Nehor]

Dealing with sin is playing whack-a-mole. You are not punished for the sin appearing in your mind. In some cases it probably is an external thought lovingly gifted from those unclean spirits that seem to hang around a lot. It becomes sin when you do not use the hammer to bash in that mole's skull.

[janderich]

Supposing that to be the case, why do my bad thoughts merit punishment?

 

What is the nature of punishment?

Wherein does the idea itself arise?

 

 

1. As a vehicle of Justice, to balance out the effects of my unjust act?

 

2. As an element of potential atonement, to restore my personal worthiness?

 

3. For righteous vengeance sake, to assauge the anger of "authority" above me?

 

4. For vengeance sake, simply to cause my suffering, without need of explanation?

 

5. To act as a deterrent -- as an example to myself and others, not to transgress?

 

 

What thoughts have you, forum friends?

 

UD

In the spiritual realm punishment follows the law of the harvest, a person reaps what they sow. They are punished until they change, and live in accordance with the law of happiness. Knowingly acting contrary to this eternal law is sin. Until a person makes the required change they suffer consequences, even eternal consequences. But as soon as they change they are freed from punishment.

 

So on a spiritual level your thoughts have form and cause you pain, along with anyone who will believe them. They are contrary to happiness and so you suffer.

 

In the physical realm the law still functions but it delayed until after this short span of mortal life.  

[Stroopwafel]

Some thoughts I'm throwing here:

 

The answer to "why do such and such actions/behaviours merit punishment", in a general manner, is simply: "because a stronger entity (authority) has decreed so".

Next question then is: "why did it decree so?", to which I'd reply because this particular authority gains some kind of benefit from your not acting/behaving in this way.

Punishment is a tool, and its use is to direct (some say guide) actions/behaviours. It does so by prohibiting actions/behaviours deemed harmful enough that they are worth going through all that trouble to "correct". Furthermore, punishment has to be connected to some kind of rule/law/ideal since only in this way can it be justifiable.

Behind punishment, there is always a will longing for greater command, control, domination. The specific advantages the entity may gain vary, but punishment is always a tool of predilection to reach these ends.

 

To me, what I find interesting is when those who suffer the punishment are told they "share" in the "benefits". Oddly enough, the virtues of punishment are always extolled by the authority figure.

 

Then what's more interesting is that some form of punishment is necessary to instill any kind of education. The question then is what makes a particular form of punishment "better" than another...

[Freedom]

The scriptures refer to punishment but a better word is discipline or correction I think. The discipline for unrighteousness is the loss of the spirit. God will, no doubt, put obstacles in our way to direct us towards righteousness. This could come in the form of illness or financial loss. I do not consider these forms of punishment, to me they are reminders of what I should be doing. He will also put opportunities in our way such as people who influence us for good, or personal experiences.  

[Uncle Dale]

In the spiritual realm punishment follows the law of the harvest, a person reaps what they sow.

...

 

 

And yet, there is another passage that speaks of equal wages

for the harvest-workers, whether they are employed at sunrise

or at noon. The 19th century Universalists loved to quote Jesus

on that particular parable.

 

UD

[The Nehor]

And yet, there is another passage that speaks of equal wages

for the harvest-workers, whether they are employed at sunrise

or at noon. The 19th century Universalists loved to quote Jesus

on that particular parable.

UD

And there are times I wish I started on the sunset shift. Edited January 28, 2015 by The Nehor

[Uncle Dale]

The scriptures refer to punishment but a better word is discipline or correction I think. The discipline for unrighteousness is the loss of the spirit. God will, no doubt, put obstacles in our way to direct us towards righteousness. This could come in the form of illness or financial loss. I do not consider these forms of punishment, to me they are reminders of what I should be doing. He will also put opportunities in our way such as people who influence us for good, or personal experiences.  

 

 

Well, you and the Patriarch Job...

 

And his three, supposed friends who came to criticize and shame

the poor fellow, quoting scripture never written -- and supposing

the inflictions requested by Satan were in reprisal for Job's

secret sin.

 

He did not curse God and die, however. And, even had he

ended up in Sheol, far from Abraham's bosom, the reader

gets a hint that faithful Job would still have said his prayers

and praised the name of the Most High.

 

I once saw my neighbor's dad, beating him half to death, over

some very minor offence (not shutting the garden gate, I think).

The father was yelling "This hurts me, more than it will you!!"

But he had a gleam in his eye that looked sadistic to me. And,

yes, the family was LDS -- but beer-drinking "Jack-Mormons,"

and I did not judge our other, neighborly Saints by what I saw.

 

UD

[janderich]

And yet, there is another passage that speaks of equal wages

for the harvest-workers, whether they are employed at sunrise

or at noon. The 19th century Universalists loved to quote Jesus

on that particular parable.

 

UD

Yes no matter how late we joint the laborers, no matter how long we suffer in sin, at the end of the day if we return and repent then we will receive our just reward. If the change has been complete then we will not be denied the blessing. To turn to God is to receive his wages of goodness, happiness, and peace. But this parable does not negate the truth that we must change in order to merit the blessing.  

[mfbukowski]

A thought crossed my mind recently, while reading an 1827 would-be

justification of the murder of William Morgan (whose widow became

the wife of a prominent Mormon at Far West, and reportedly also the

plural wife of Joseph Smith, jr.)

 

The old article goes on, at some length, discussing the concept of

punishment for transgression, and its basis in scripture, law and reason.

 

But I'm not satisfied with those old explanations (written primarily for

a Protestant audience favoring 19th century Freemasonry, etc.)

 

Suppose, that moments following my baptism and confirmation, whilst

fully sinless, and "white as the driven snow" in the eyes of Divine Justice,

my mind wanders into imagining the murder of my neighbor, Bill Morgan.

 

Even if I were to quickly dismiss this morbid fantasy, and conclude never

to consider it again -- I have sinned -- and, without timely repentance,

have broken my baptismal covenant.

 

 

Supposing that to be the case, why do my bad thoughts merit punishment?

 

What is the nature of punishment?

Wherein does the idea itself arise?

 

 

1. As a vehicle of Justice, to balance out the effects of my unjust act?

 

2. As an element of potential atonement, to restore my personal worthiness?

 

3. For righteous vengeance sake, to assauge the anger of "authority" above me?

 

4. For vengeance sake, simply to cause my suffering, without need of explanation?

 

5. To act as a deterrent -- as an example to myself and others, not to transgress?

 

 

What thoughts have you, forum friends?

 

UD

Bravo!

 

This is the most important question in Christianity and no one ever talks about it.

 

This comment is only partially relevant to the question, but I had a bit of an epiphany watching a movie that my wife forced me to see, "Unbroken."  In it, there was a scene in which a prisoner in a concentration camp was sentenced to having every member of the camp punch him in the face.  All the members of the camp were allied soldiers being held behind enemy lines in Japan during World War II, so the members of the camp were comrades and a closely-knit group, whereas the oppressors were the enemy, so there was a dimension of cohesiveness one would not expect among other prisoner groups.

 

At first the other prisoners refused to punch their comrade.  Then they brought out the best friend of the man being punished- a friend with whom he had spent more than a month at sea in a lifeboat and many other nearly unimaginable ordeals, and which together, they had survived by their mutual support.

 

The person in charge of the punishment struck the friend with a large stick, knocking him to the ground, saying that if the prisoners refused to punch the one being punished, the best friend of the man being punished would receive a blow from the stick instead.

 

The protagonist then yelled to all "HIT ME!" repeatedly, so that the innocent friend would not receive the punishment the protagonist was intended to receive.

 

It was a powerful moment, I put myself in that position and realized what a horrible pain it would be to know that an innocent was punished for something I had done.

 

Like the protagonist, I felt that I would do anything to avoid seeing my best friend or child being punished on my behalf.

 

Then of course, I related it to the atonement.

 

But then I had an interesting thought. 

 

If I were designing a system to produce guilt for transgressions, I could think of no better way to induce guilt than to imagine that my best friend of child would be punished for something I had done.   The idea that a total innocent would take upon himself my punishment would probably cause me to take on almost anything to avoid that pain myself.

 

On the other hand, the prospect that that had already happened in the past would cause me to retain the guilt for all I had done, and yet also instill an incredible sense of gratitude in my that I no longer had to worry about all those things I had done to others which I should not have done.

 

Just a thought.

[Uncle Dale]

Some thoughts I'm throwing here:

 

The answer to "why do such and such actions/behaviours merit punishment", in a general manner, is simply: "because a stronger entity (authority) has decreed so".

...

 

 

I sometimes choose to believe the delusion that I live in a democracy --

or, at least am the citizen of a republic, wherein the laws and punishments

are what we members of the commonwealth have decided them to be.

 

But -- yes, a good deal of punishment ends up being an exhibition of power,

or a grab for power, or a not so subtle negotiation for additional power.

 

Why does the torturer place his victim upon the rack? And why do the

cowled priest and Grand Inquisitor accept certain dogmatic formulae,

and not others, as granting him a reprieve from his pain and suffering?

 

What school does the torturer attend, in order to be certified in his trade?

 

If I imagine myself the resident of some isolated, desert isle (much smaller

and more remote than the one I currently live upon) what rules shall I set

down for my first visitor (call him "Friday")? How shall I decide when this

poor castaway shall fall victim to my lash, or be allowed to sup at my table?

 

And, if in being rescued by a passing man-of-war, I fail to awaken poor

Friday, and leave him to perish without hope of salvation, what has he done

to merit my neglect (or my cruelty)?

 

I wonder.

 

I was once told that God condemns me to eternal hellfire, for the sin

of Adam -- and that God so loves the world that he attempts to help me

find some escape from my destined infinite pain and eternal burnings.

If only I will first of all accept that explanation and not disbelieve it.

 

Seems a strange sort of love, to me.

 

UD

Edited January 28, 2015 by Uncle Dale

[Uncle Dale]

...

The protagonist then yelled to all "HIT ME!" repeatedly, ..

 

I am Spartacus!

 

No I am he! -- No it is I!

 

UD

[The Nehor]

Another question is why God sent us to such a difficult world knowing so much pain and guilt would be manufactured. I trust that it was worth it but it seems kind of extreme.

[strappinglad]

And what would be a good alternative? Perhaps we could all be given a celestial X-Box and a comfy cloud and spend eternity becoming " one " with the cloud/sofa . " There needs be opposition is all things". Ever wonder why?

[mfbukowski]

I am Spartacus!

 

No I am he! -- No it is I!

 

UD

Exactly.

[mfbukowski]

I was once told that God condemns me to eternal hellfire, for the sin

of Adam -- and that God so loves the world that he attempts to help me

find some escape from my destined infinite pain and eternal burnings.

If only I will first of all accept that explanation and not disbelieve it.

 

Seems a strange sort of love, to me.

 

UD

This was precisely why Nietzsche pronounced God dead.

 

Fortunately though, the god he killed never lived.

[mfbukowski]

I think to a large degree punishment is revenge pure and simple.

 

You broke my rule?  I'll show you!

[Uncle Dale]

I think to a large degree punishment is revenge pure and simple.

 

You broke my rule?  I'll show you!

Yeah -- understandable in a Syrian fundamentalist rebel, executing

"Infidels" in his hopeful Iraq Caliphate....

A little less convincing in a Jonathan Edwards hellfire and brimstone

sermon, preached to the in-laws of Salem witches.

Then again, I was once told that "apostates such as you" are

automatically condemned to the eternal Lake of Fire -- and

not even eligible for holiday passes to Outer Darkness or

Perdition...

Oh well,

UD

[mfbukowski]

Yeah -- understandable in a Syrian fundamentalist rebel, executing

"Infidels" in his hopeful Iraq Caliphate....

A little less convincing in a Jonathan Edwards hellfire and brimstone

sermon, preached to the in-laws of Salem witches.

Then again, I was once told that "apostates such as you" are

automatically condemned to the eternal Lake of Fire -- and

not even eligible for holiday passes to Outer Darkness or

Perdition...

Oh well,

UD

Well we naturally transfer the way we were raised to the Father in the Sky.

 

Authoritarian child rearing produces an authoritarian God. 

 

Fundamentalists think corporal punishment is just fine.  And what's the worst corporal punishment the human brain can dream up?  Burning for eternity.

 

Nowadays we don't even spank, so our God loves us and gives us comfort, and we have virtual universal salvation or at least a way that we kids can repent and get it right, or at least get rehabilitated in spirit prison and return to our loving Dad, who kills the fatted calf and welcomes us, and gives us all he has.

 

On the other hand, perhaps the Light of Christ has now penetrated our hearts and we are ready for the new restoration and the second chance that the temple provides for all.

 

So either we no longer have a taste for punishing our kids because we are more "civilized" and we project that on the heavens, or continuing revelation has turned the hearts of the fathers to the children and vice-versa.

 

Secularists would see it one way, and we see it the other,  I see both views simultaneously and think that we therefore have the "truest" model for God that humans can imagine.  So here I am in the True Church.

Edited January 28, 2015 by mfbukowski

[Uncle Dale]

...  So here I am in the True Church.

Thus it came to pass, that young Everett Everyman did, one bright

spring morning, kneel in the grove at the edge of his father's vineyard,

crying out in mighty prayer, "which of all these restoration churches

shall I join?"

And the answer came -- "Join none of them; for their latter day

creeds and articles of faith are beyond all comprehension, including

Mine Own."

UD

[The Nehor]

And what would be a good alternative? Perhaps we could all be given a celestial X-Box and a comfy cloud and spend eternity becoming " one " with the cloud/sofa . " There needs be opposition is all things". Ever wonder why?

 

No, I know there must be opposition. I am just curious as to why there must be so much.

[Ahab]

Punishment is what I call what I feel when I can see that I made a bad choice. Sometime it's fleeting, and sometimes it lingers... and sometimes it lingers for a long, long time.

The opposite feeling is what I call feeling blessed, and sometimes I need to feel some punishment before I can feel blessed.

[Uncle Dale]

No, I know there must be opposition. I am just curious as to why there must be so much.

 

"I know, I know. We are Your chosen people.

But, once in a while, can't You choose someone else?"

(Tevye)

 

UD