What Is Punishment? And Why Is It Inflicted?

[CV75]

Supposing that to be the case, why do my bad thoughts merit punishment?

 

What is the nature of punishment?

Wherein does the idea itself arise?

I think that perhaps such punishment (in the form of a guilty conscience, perhaps, is to teach. In this case, the nature of the punishment is internal and self-imposed, arising from the light of Christ that is in us. Sometimes out thoughts prevent us from a particular exercise of agency which would otherwise bless us if followed.

[The Nehor]

"I know, I know. We are Your chosen people.

But, once in a while, can't You choose someone else?"

(Tevye)

 

UD

 

Yeah, being chosen of God is apparently like volunteering in the military. Gets accolades at times but not sure it is worth the risk.

[Uncle Dale]

I think that perhaps such punishment (in the form of a guilty conscience, perhaps, is to teach. In this case, the nature of the punishment is internal and self-imposed, arising from the light of Christ that is in us. Sometimes out thoughts prevent us from a particular exercise of agency which would otherwise bless us if followed.

 

 

This gets close to resembling what Hindus call the law of karma --

that what goes around, comes around -- that for every action, there

is an equal and opposite reaction.

 

But it is discouraging to watch some blatant law-breaker "get away

with it," time after time -- and, perhaps grow richer and more powerful

all along his evil path.

 

And, I've heard it said, that Justice Delayed is Justice Denied.

 

No doubt there are instances in which punishment for some wrongful

act can serve to separate the sheep from the goats; with those folks

possessing a smattering of conscience deciding to try a better way.

Then again, Grandma used to say "whipping a spoiled brat just

makes him hate you all the more..."

 

hmmmmmm

 

UD

[CV75]

This gets close to resembling what Hindus call the law of karma --

that what goes around, comes around -- that for every action, there

is an equal and opposite reaction.

 

But it is discouraging to watch some blatant law-breaker "get away

with it," time after time -- and, perhaps grow richer and more powerful

all along his evil path.

 

And, I've heard it said, that Justice Delayed is Justice Denied.

 

No doubt there are instances in which punishment for some wrongful

act can serve to separate the sheep from the goats; with those folks

possessing a smattering of conscience deciding to try a better way.

Then again, Grandma used to say "whipping a spoiled brat just

makes him hate you all the more..."

 

hmmmmmm

 

UD

It does seem close to karma, except my frame of reference is the light of Christ as opposed to a law operating independent of Deity or any process of divine judgment. Christ makes punishment part of a consciously-administered system, and because it is centered in Him and He loves us and administers punishment and blessing perfectly (albeit on His not-of-this-world timetable), they do not operate automatically. Thus He grants us our period of probation through mortality.

How does someone who goes unpunished ever learn? Maybe they passed that point and missed that lesson, like the spoiled child you mentioned. Although thankfully Christ assured us His are are stretched out continually in some form or fashion.

This may be discouraging for some. But an alternate view which holds charity above justice would make it more sorrowful than discouraging (faith and hope might make it less discouraging in how one feels in behalf of the law-breaker). Justice may seem delayed from a temporal standpoint but not from an eternal one and it is always granted.

[Uncle Dale]

... like the spoiled child you mentioned.

...

 

I might mention that she worked at the Idaho Industrial School

(aka St. Anthony juveniles' prison) during the Depression and

WWII -- so she saw some of "the worst of the worst."

 

Back in those days a kid practically had to be a murderer, in

order to get sent to St. Anthony.

 

But there were a few success stories. My aunt used to take in

homeless girls who had served their sentences and had no

place to go afterward. Some of them "turned over a new leaf;" 

while another absconded with the family grocery money.

 

People -- maybe the planet was a better place, before they took

it over...

 

UD

[Stroopwafel]

I sometimes choose to believe the delusion that I live in a democracy --

or, at least am the citizen of a republic, wherein the laws and punishments

are what we members of the commonwealth have decided them to be.

 

But -- yes, a good deal of punishment ends up being an exhibition of power,

or a grab for power, or a not so subtle negotiation for additional power.

 

Why does the torturer place his victim upon the rack? And why do the

cowled priest and Grand Inquisitor accept certain dogmatic formulae,

and not others, as granting him a reprieve from his pain and suffering?

 

What school does the torturer attend, in order to be certified in his trade?

 

If I imagine myself the resident of some isolated, desert isle (much smaller

and more remote than the one I currently live upon) what rules shall I set

down for my first visitor (call him "Friday")? How shall I decide when this

poor castaway shall fall victim to my lash, or be allowed to sup at my table?

 

And, if in being rescued by a passing man-of-war, I fail to awaken poor

Friday, and leave him to perish without hope of salvation, what has he done

to merit my neglect (or my cruelty)?

 

I wonder.

 

I was once told that God condemns me to eternal hellfire, for the sin

of Adam -- and that God so loves the world that he attempts to help me

find some escape from my destined infinite pain and eternal burnings.

If only I will first of all accept that explanation and not disbelieve it.

 

Seems a strange sort of love, to me.

 

UD

 

Punishment is always a means to an end. Howerver, it doesn't follow that it is the only means to that end. Punishment has degrees, from a simple denying of some privilege to the worst torture humans can think of. If you really would like to consider the matter further, there's a great book that I would recommend, written by Michel Foucault, called Discipline and Punish.

[Uncle Dale]

...written by Michel Foucault, called Discipline and Punish.

 

Looks as if I can get a fairly lengthy sample, via Amazon's "look inside"

and Google's "preview." So -- I'll try that much, at least.

 

Prisons, jails, concentration camps, Botony Bay, etc. have all been

one sort of temporal punishment -- now and in days gone by.

 

Yet, the lashed slave in the cottonfields could sing of "Going over Jordan,"

and an eventual eternal reprieve from Master's greed and anger.

 

Tell that same poor wretch, on his deathbed, that he's destined for

damnation, for not having been baptized by immersion, or paying tithing

to the proper priesthood -- and his eternal bliss may seem less certain.

 

No matter the metaphysics -- simply telling him that, and leaving him

upon the bedstead is a sadism beyond what any prison can inflict.

 

UD

[Ahab]

Looks as if I can get a fairly lengthy sample, via Amazon's "look inside"

and Google's "preview." So -- I'll try that much, at least.

Prisons, jails, concentration camps, Botony Bay, etc. have all been

one sort of temporal punishment -- now and in days gone by.

Yet, the lashed slave in the cottonfields could sing of "Going over Jordan,"

and an eventual eternal reprieve from Master's greed and anger.

Tell that same poor wretch, on his deathbed, that he's destined for

damnation, for not having been baptized by immersion, or paying tithing

to the proper priesthood -- and his eternal bliss may seem less certain.

No matter the metaphysics -- simply telling him that, and leaving him

upon the bedstead is a sadism beyond what any prison can inflict.

UD

Sheesh. The way you are telling it it would be punishment to hear that from you, but we would say that if you can't manage to do it today, if you simply know you should do it, the ordinance will be proxied for you and all you need to do is the best you can do.

And all the mess ups you made can be made up as mulligans so you can do what you should of done if you simply knew all the things you should do.

[The Nehor]

Tell that same poor wretch, on his deathbed, that he's destined for

damnation, for not having been baptized by immersion, or paying tithing

to the proper priesthood -- and his eternal bliss may seem less certain.

 

No matter the metaphysics -- simply telling him that, and leaving him

upon the bedstead is a sadism beyond what any prison can inflict.

 

It may be sadism but it is a short-lived pain if he is truly on his death-bed. Christ can wipe away all tears. I still do not understand how but I anticipate arriving bleeding and bruised with a lot of pain so I really hope it is true.

[mfbukowski]

Sheesh. The way you are telling it it would be punishment to hear that from you, but we would say that if you can't manage to do it today, if you simply know you should do it, the ordinance will be proxied for you and all you need to do is the best you can do.

And all the mess ups you made can be made up as mulligans so you can do what you should of done if you simply knew all the things you should do.

 

It may be sadism but it is a short-lived pain if he is truly on his death-bed. Christ can wipe away all tears. I still do not understand how but I anticipate arriving bleeding and bruised with a lot of pain so I really hope it is true.

You guys both missed the point

 

UD was talking about the nature of punishment,  evangelical theology and the book stroop linked to, not LDS theology.

Edited January 29, 2015 by mfbukowski

[Uncle Dale]

You guys both missed the point

 

UD was talking about the nature of punishment,  evangelical theology and the book stroop linked to, not LDS theology.

 

At least the LDS theologian would naturally call in the missionaries

and try to get the poor dying slave into the baptismal font -- forget

about whatever miniscule tithing might be levied upon his one chicken,

his worn-out overalls, and his Confederate one dollar bill, hidden

under that same deathbed.

 

It would be Rev. (?) Jimmy Swaggart, or one of his ilk, who might

walk away, leaving the wretch to perish in his ignorance.

 

UD

[Ahab]

You guys both missed the point

UD was talking about the nature of punishment, evangelical theology and the book stroop linked to, not LDS theology.

Try thinking that I was talking about what punishment REALLY is and then maybe you'll see THE point I was making.

[Ahab]

At least the LDS theologian would naturally call in the missionaries

and try to get the poor dying slave into the baptismal font -- forget

about whatever miniscule tithing might be levied upon his one chicken,

his worn-out overalls, and his Confederate one dollar bill, hidden

under that same deathbed.

It would be Rev. (?) Jimmy Swaggart, or one of his ilk, who might

walk away, leaving the wretch to perish in his ignorance.

UD

Thank you for acknowledging that we would do whatever it took to educate and save the poor soul, even being willing to do the same for Jimmy and all of his ilk.

[Uncle Dale]

...Jimmy and all of his ilk.

 

Not all evengelicals are strict Calvinists, of course. But I've met

more than a few of them who would argue that God has predestined

the dying fellow to his lot in life -- and, if he had been among the

Elect, chosen before the world began, he would have never been

born a slave in the first place.

 

In a less rabid interpretation of the same doctrines of predestination,

I've had members of a Baptist congregation point out to me the

richest, most socially advanced, or politically successful figures, as

examples of Christians obviously favored by God and destined for

eternal bliss.

 

So, if Rev. Swaggart walks away from that deathbed, he might do so

with what he felt was a clear conscience. It was not that part that I

sought to draw attention to. -- It was the part about damning a person

to everlasting suffering, in his own home (or church, or workplace) for

not having accepted some particular sectarian creed. A pronouncement

doubly cruel in an instance in which the poor wretch can do litte or

nothing to respond (and perhaps becomes convinced of that horrid fate).

 

UD