C.s Lewis Overrated

[Spammer]

And with you as our nanny to keep us all in line?

 

Do you support quoting out of context and misuse of sources? No, you don't.  Neither do I, and that was the only argument I was making.  I was only arguing for the importance of reading within context, given that Lewis didn't mean what some Mormons in my experience think he meant when they read and talk about him during church (e.g., when I've heard Lewis quoted regarding how men can become gods). We should be very careful when seeking to gain insights into our own beliefs when reading anyone from a different tradition who doesn't share with us the most fundamental and foundational of those beliefs.  Do you disagree?  

 

To that point, when Oremite writes "We don't read C. S. Lewis to gain insights into his beliefs.  We read him to gain insights into our own,"  what would your response be if you came across a Catholic or Anglican blog quoting Joseph Smith as if Joseph shared belief in the God of Nicene Christianity?  Would you join the conversation to offer clarification or would you just think 'carry on!' and refrain from chiming in? If you did offer some clarification, would you be ok with the blogger's response of "We don't read Joseph Smith to gain insights into his beliefs.  We read him to gain insights into our own"?  Wouldn't that seem a strange thing for the Anglican blogger to say?  Lewis was no Mormon.  Far from it.  Context and nuance matter when using sources from a tradition different from your own. Unless you mistakenly believe Lewis shares the LDS view about the nature of God, what's the problem?

Edited December 15, 2014 by Spammer

[The Nehor]

Answer to thread title:  Yuup.

Gonna go with nope. I have been a fan since I was 8 and got the Narnia books for a birthday/baptism gift. I owe him a debt. He taught me how to both love and be in awe of a God (Aslan) that I did not believe in which I could later translate over to the real God. Thanking him is on my Spirit World "to do" list.

[JDave]

We should be very careful when seeking to gain insights into our own beliefs when reading anyone from a different tradition who doesn't share with us the most fundamental and foundational of those beliefs.

What exactly about LDS theology is so earth-shatteringly foundational and different that all the rest of our common Christian beliefs just don't line up with C.S. Lewis? 

 

I don't think the metaphysics of what exactly is the nature of God would count, nor the end state of man after the resurrection.  Quoting C.S. Lewis as being a proponent of us becoming Gods is bad and wrong, but that is a particular example that probably doesn't even apply to the OP that was about General Conference usage.  Someone can always have their words twisted, but I think this topic was about usages that are not at all out of context.

[Spammer]

Gonna go with nope. I have been a fan since I was 8 and got the Narnia books for a birthday/baptism gift. I owe him a debt. He taught me how to both love and be in awe of a God (Aslan) that I did not believe in which I could later translate over to the real God. Thanking him is on my Spirit World "to do" list.

 

I was an atheist after I left Mormonism.  C.S. Lewis was instrumental in bringing me back to faith in Christ.  I also owe him a huge debt.

[Spammer]

What exactly about LDS theology is so earth-shatteringly foundational and different that all the rest of our common Christian beliefs just don't line up with C.S. Lewis? 

 

I don't think the metaphysics of what exactly is the nature of God would count, nor the end state of man after the resurrection.  Quoting C.S. Lewis as being a proponent of us becoming Gods is bad and wrong, but that is a particular example that probably doesn't even apply to the OP that was about General Conference usage.  Someone can always have their words twisted, but I think this topic was about usages that are not at all out of context.

 

What differs between Lewis and Mormonism really is earth-shatteringly foundational.  Mormons and Lewis worship different gods.  One has a Heavenly Father who is a resurrected, glorified man.  The other is the Holy Trinity of traditional, Nicene Christianity.  Those views are mutually exclusive.  By all means, focus on Christ and what is commonly believed by all Christians when reading/discussing Lewis.  I was only advocating for the importance of not forgetting the critical difference when reading or teaching Lewis.  It seems to be an important thing to keep in mind when using sources from a tradition not your own.  I do admit I find it puzzling that Mormons would apparently be so enamored by a writer who every Sunday recited a Creed declared tby the God they worship to be abominable, but that certainly shouldn't preclude Mormons from using Lewis to focus on morality, Christian charity, ethics, and marriage.  I never suggested otherwise.  Lewis' writings in those areas is clear, concise, and compelling and the world would be a better place if everyone (Christian or not) read Lewis and followed his counsel.

Edited December 15, 2014 by Spammer

[pogi]

I do admit I find it puzzling that Mormons would apparently be so enamored by a writer who every Sunday recited a Creed declared to Joseph Smith by the God they worship to be abominable.

 

Unlike some, we admire the light and truth in other faiths and are counseled to seek after it.  We take the good and leave the abominable snow man behind. 

Edited December 15, 2014 by pogi

[Spammer]

Unlike some, we admire the light and truth in other faiths and are counseled to seek after it.  We take the good and leave the abominable snow man behind. 

 

In other words, you appropriate and dissect Lewis for your own nefarious purposes.  Just kidding! [i wish there was a winking emoticon I could insert here].  That's alright.  We Trinitarians also seek after all light and truth.  Keep reading Lewis and perhaps one day he'll persuade you to join him in reciting the Creed on Sundays and you can bring all of your goodness with you and taste the fullness that ancient Christianity offers. 

Edited December 15, 2014 by Spammer

[pogi]

[pogi]

oops

Edited December 15, 2014 by pogi

[pogi]

 

Keep reading Lewis and perhaps one day he'll persuade you to join him in reciting the Creed on Sundays

 

 

Edited December 15, 2014 by pogi

[Spammer]

 

 

 

Lol! Touche!

[LoudmouthMormon]

I know that C.S. Lewis is the most quoted non LDS person in general conference but to me this has always seemed strange. Why not quote Dietrich Boenhoeffer, Thomas Merton, or such works as the imitation of Christ, or the ladder of divine ascent? Or how about the philakalia?

 

Speaking only for myself, my most quoted nonLDS person is Krister Stendahl, Harvard Divinity School dean and Bishop of Stockholm, Sweden.

 

 

1) Don't seek information about the other from his enemies. Learn about his faith from him.

2) Compare your best with the other's best -- not your best with the other's worst.

3) Always leave room for "holy envy," for seeing in the other's faith something that you would like to bring into your own.

 

 

As far as non-LDS authors, I have to give Tolkein the top billing here.  I'm fascinated by their combined story, and Tolkein's pivotal influence in Lewis' conversion to Christianity in the first place.

Edited December 15, 2014 by LoudmouthMormon

[ERayR]

Gonna go with nope. I have been a fan since I was 8 and got the Narnia books for a birthday/baptism gift. I owe him a debt. He taught me how to both love and be in awe of a God (Aslan) that I did not believe in which I could later translate over to the real God. Thanking him is on my Spirit World "to do" list.

 

I liked the Narnia stories but the question was not for just the Narnia stories.  It was is C. S. Lewis (overall) over rated.  While he did some good stuff I still think that overall he is over rated.  That is just me so you all go ahead and enjoy them.

[toon]

We can only have one unofficial 13th apostle...or is it 16th apostle?

 

We already have a Thomas and Dietrich is too close to Dieter, we needed a Lewis

 

Whenever I hear the name Dieter, I think, "Now is ze time on Sprockets vhen ve dance."

[Stargazer]

In other words, you appropriate and dissect Lewis for your own nefarious purposes.  Just kidding! [i wish there was a winking emoticon I could insert here].  That's alright.  We Trinitarians also seek after all light and truth.  Keep reading Lewis and perhaps one day he'll persuade you to join him in reciting the Creed on Sundays and you can bring all of your goodness with you and taste the fullness that ancient Christianity offers. 

I'm trying to restrain myself, but it's not working: no way I will ever recite the Creed on Sundays. Or any other day of the week, unless it is to use it as a demonstration of how one mingles Greek philosophy with scripture to produce confusion. Sorry, Spammer.

But I don't particularly care if C.S. Lewis was a creedal Christian. It's not important. He was (and is) a wonderful popularizer of Christian principles and a great teacher as well. If he got a few things wrong here and there, so what. I am glad he brought you back to faith.

[Stargazer]

I liked the Narnia stories but the question was not for just the Narnia stories.  It was is C. S. Lewis (overall) over rated.  While he did some good stuff I still think that overall he is over rated.  That is just me so you all go ahead and enjoy them.

Oddly enough, I can't stand the Narnia stories.  I tried to read the first book, but couldn't make myself finish it.  I saw the first movie, and it was OK from an entertainment point of view, but I couldn't get past Aslan as a stand-in for Christ. It just made me cringe. I know what he was trying to say, and I can appreciate what it did for many people, but... not for me.

Mere Christianity is a favorite book of mine, though.

[Spammer]

I'm trying to restrain myself, but it's not working: no way I will ever recite the Creed on Sundays. Or any other day of the week, unless it is to use it as a demonstration of how one mingles Greek philosophy with scripture to produce confusion. Sorry, Spammer.

But I don't particularly care if C.S. Lewis was a creedal Christian. It's not important. He was (and is) a wonderful popularizer of Christian principles and a great teacher as well. If he got a few things wrong here and there, so what. I am glad he brought you back to faith.

 

I think you should be more appreciative of Greek philosophy.  Mormons, Platonists, and Neo-Platonists all agree that spirits are pre-existent, matter is co-eternal with the divine, and that God created all things out of that pre-existent matter.   

Edited December 16, 2014 by Spammer

[ERayR]

Oddly enough, I can't stand the Narnia stories.  I tried to read the first book, but couldn't make myself finish it.  I saw the first movie, and it was OK from an entertainment point of view, but I couldn't get past Aslan as a stand-in for Christ. It just made me cringe. I know what he was trying to say, and I can appreciate what it did for many people, but... not for me.

Mere Christianity is a favorite book of mine, though.

 

I did not read the Narnia books but did watch the movies with the grand kids.  I watched it for the entertainment value not its theology.  Again I think his writing to be good but that it has been over rated.

[bluebell]

Oddly enough, I can't stand the Narnia stories.  I tried to read the first book, but couldn't make myself finish it.  I saw the first movie, and it was OK from an entertainment point of view, but I couldn't get past Aslan as a stand-in for Christ. It just made me cringe. I know what he was trying to say, and I can appreciate what it did for many people, but... not for me.

Mere Christianity is a favorite book of mine, though.

 

I'm with you on the Narnia books Stargazer.  I read the first one a couple of times and never really liked it, though i wanted to since i usually love fantasy novels.

 

I never really understood what the kids saw in Aslan.  I mean, i know that he's a type of Christ and i got that and all, but just from a pure storyline perspective, i didn't, from my perspective, think that their love for him was explained adequately in the book.  I guess i needed the relationship to be fleshed out more.

[Spammer]

Speaking to the OP, I agree that there are other, more deeply spiritual sources than Lewis that we can read.  Of course, holy scripture is first.  The OP listed the Ladder of Divine Ascent and the Philokalia.  Both are also profound and important.  They're Eastern Orthodox sources in use in the church today.  The Ladder describes the way of life of the ancient Egyptian desert fathers and was written centuries ago.  It is the source for an icon commonly found in our churches.  This link shows the icon:

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Ladder_of_Divine_Ascent

 

 

The Philokalia is a collection of Orthodox spiritual writings from the past 1000 years or so and was compiled by a bishop of the Russian Orthodox Church.  It was translated into English a few decades ago.  It's a multi-volume work.  The Way of a Pilgrim is also worth checking out.  It's an anonymous 19th Century spiritual autobiography from Russia that describes how the author (an Orthodox Christian) used the Philokalia during his journeys throughout Russia.  The book describes how the author sold all that he had and lived the life of an ascetic while walking all over Russia.  As he writes about his wanderings, carrying only a knapsack containing a Bible, the Philokalia, and a few crusts of bread, the author summarizes the principles found in the Philokalia and relates how he put them into practice.  It's a very good read, suitable for Christians from any tradition - the same as C.S. Lewis.

 

http://www.amazon.com/Way-Pilgrim-Continues-His/dp/0060630175/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1418745826&sr=8-1&keywords=way+of+the+pilgrim

 

A few years back, a very good Russian film called 'The Island' (Ostrov) was released that depicts the way of life described in the Philokalia and by the Pilgrim in the foregoing book description.  It also portrays a very Russian type of character called the 'holy fool for Christ', who is the film's protagonist.  It's on Netflix for free or you can watch it on youtube.  It's well worth checking out for those who may be interested in Eastern Christian, especially Orthodox, spirituality (which is the spirituality of the ancient monastics in the Egyptian desert).  

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ms4TXwIDutM

[Robert F. Smith]

I'm with you on the Narnia books Stargazer.  I read the first one a couple of times and never really liked it, though i wanted to since i usually love fantasy novels.

 

I never really understood what the kids saw in Aslan.  I mean, i know that he's a type of Christ and i got that and all, but just from a pure storyline perspective, i didn't, from my perspective, think that their love for him was explained adequately in the book.  I guess i needed the relationship to be fleshed out more.

What about "Life of Brian"?

[Robert F. Smith]

Do you support quoting out of context and misuse of sources? No, you don't.  Neither do I, and that was the only argument I was making.  I was only arguing for the importance of reading within context, given that Lewis didn't mean what some Mormons in my experience think he meant when they read and talk about him during church (e.g., when I've heard Lewis quoted regarding how men can become gods). We should be very careful when seeking to gain insights into our own beliefs when reading anyone from a different tradition who doesn't share with us the most fundamental and foundational of those beliefs.  Do you disagree?  

 

To that point, when Oremite writes "We don't read C. S. Lewis to gain insights into his beliefs.  We read him to gain insights into our own,"  what would your response be if you came across a Catholic or Anglican blog quoting Joseph Smith as if Joseph shared belief in the God of Nicene Christianity?  Would you join the conversation to offer clarification or would you just think 'carry on!' and refrain from chiming in? If you did offer some clarification, would you be ok with the blogger's response of "We don't read Joseph Smith to gain insights into his beliefs.  We read him to gain insights into our own"?  Wouldn't that seem a strange thing for the Anglican blogger to say?  Lewis was no Mormon.  Far from it.  Context and nuance matter when using sources from a tradition different from your own. Unless you mistakenly believe Lewis shares the LDS view about the nature of God, what's the problem?

Yeh, what's the problem?  Do we all need Ms Manners or Emily Post  to tell us what can and cannot rightly be said or concluded with respect to Clive Staples Lewis?  Do we all have to be at each other's throats over our interpretations, when perhaps some of us are merely trying to be expansive and generous in our appreciation for the views of others?  I often keep silent in Church meetings when I hear people say some truly ridiculous things (things I used to think and say when younger).  It isn't always necessary to hector people on the context and nuances.  One should choose battles for their significance or importance.  One need not strain out gnats and then swallow a camel.  One does not have to accept another's theology in order to like him and his mode of expression, or even to learn from him.  That I like Pope Francis does not mean that I am going to convert to Catholicism.  If I quote him, that does not mean that I accept every point of his theology.  There is no point in being priggish about such matters.  That's just bad manners.

[Robert F. Smith]

I was an atheist after I left Mormonism.  C.S. Lewis was instrumental in bringing me back to faith in Christ.  I also owe him a huge debt.

I think that is wonderful.  One more reason to like him.

[Spammer]

Yeh, what's the problem?  Do we all need Ms Manners or Emily Post  to tell us what can and cannot rightly be said or concluded with respect to Clive Staples Lewis?  Do we all have to be at each other's throats over our interpretations, when perhaps some of us are merely trying to be expansive and generous in our appreciation for the views of others?  I often keep silent in Church meetings when I hear people say some truly ridiculous things (things I used to think and say when younger).  It isn't always necessary to hector people on the context and nuances.  One should choose battles for their significance or importance.  One need not strain out gnats and then swallow a camel.  One does not have to accept another's theology in order to like him and his mode of expression, or even to learn from him.  That I like Pope Francis does not mean that I am going to convert to Catholicism.  If I quote him, that does not mean that I accept every point of his theology.  There is no point in being priggish about such matters.  That's just bad manners.

 

Who said anything about what can and cannot rightly be said about C.S. Lewis?  What I said was it's important to keep context in mind, and that Lewis' context was traditional Anglican and Nicene.  That's hardly a controversial position to take.  I'll ask again, if you came across an Anglican blog using Mormon writings to interpret Anglican beliefs, would you have a problem with a Mormon commenting that the writings should be read and understood from within an LDS context?  

Edited December 17, 2014 by Spammer

[Spammer]

I think that is wonderful.  One more reason to like him.

 

It is.