What "learning" Is Jacob Referring To In 2 Nephi 9?

[SmileyMcGee]

Perhaps I can rely on those more learned in ancient near eastern history for guidance.

In 2 be 9 Jacob is preaching and warns that when men/women are "learned they think they are wise." He then counsels that being learned is good if you hearken to God's counsel. I am assuming that "learning" in this passage refers to secular learning.

I find this counsel rather puzzling given the context. According to the timeline in the BOM, this counsel is given some 55 years after Lehi left Jerusalem. What secular learning existed at the time and place that Jacob is speaking? Where and how would these people become learned?

The only other similar warning I find in the scriptures is from Paul, but you would except such a warning from Paul given his background.

[Avatar4321]

I'm not sure I follow. Are you suggesting that obtaining learning is a relatively new prospect and they didn't do it back then or that the nephites were unlearned people? Why wouldn't there be learned people then and there?

[janderich]

I believe when Jacob uses the word "learned" he is referring more to a state of mind than the amount of information in ones head. We can see this in his definition of these people. The foolish learned think they are wise and do not harken to the voice of the spirit. 

 

In truth, what is our learning compared to the wisdom we have access to through our spirit? We can cut ourselves off here in mortality. Indeed, our "learning" will seem foolishness when we are freed from the veil and finally realize the knowledge locked away in our spirit, which we gained over eons of time. This knowledge and wisdom of the spirit is what Jacob's "learned" refuse to hear. So they certainly are fools.

[Guest]

Perhaps I can rely on those more learned in ancient near eastern history for guidance.

In 2 be 9 Jacob is preaching and warns that when men/women are "learned they think they are wise." He then counsels that being learned is good if you hearken to God's counsel. I am assuming that "learning" in this passage refers to secular learning.

I find this counsel rather puzzling given the context. According to the timeline in the BOM, this counsel is given some 55 years after Lehi left Jerusalem. What secular learning existed at the time and place that Jacob is speaking? Where and how would these people become learned?

The only other similar warning I find in the scriptures is from Paul, but you would except such a warning from Paul given his background.

The same a Paul did...by learning of the ways of the world, or in that pursuit we forget God.

[cinepro]

I'm not sure I follow. Are you suggesting that obtaining learning is a relatively new prospect and they didn't do it back then or that the nephites were unlearned people? Why wouldn't there be learned people then and there?

 

I think that's the question.  And it's a very interesting question. What kind of "learning" would the Nephites be exposed to the period of 559–545 B.C. that would be drawing them away from their pre-Christian beliefs? 

 

Obviously, we apply this scripture today to people who become "learned" in the sciences and other secular fields to the point that they start to see religion as irrelevant.  Certainly, I've seen it acknowledged that LDS students at secular college frequently face challenges to their faith in the things that they may learn.

 

So what did this scripture mean to a Nephite in 550 B.C.?  What kind of "learning" were they doing that set them up to doubt their faith?  Or is it more of post-renaissance concept being applied here?

Edited December 1, 2014 by cinepro

[Nofear]

In Jacob's day and culture, and pretty much everywhere around the world, I don't believe there was a division between secular and theological learning. While often applied to scientific knowledge and such, it really applies to all learning: secular or theological. There are examples of Mormons who strayed from the faith for the sake of theological "learning." An older example: Laman and Lemuel learned the scriptures and were able to quote Isaiah in their reasoning that their father was delusional, mistaken, and contrary to the prophets.

[The Nehor]

I suspect being learned meant being literate and schooled in the texts of the day. That would include the brass plates and whatever other texts were brought over by Lehi and whatever philosophy existed amongst the natives. It also likely included self-styled "thinkers" who pondered a lot and came to some conclusions. The bad version of that is the idiot who imagines that every idea they have is inspired and correct.

[pogi]

The bad version of that is the idiot who imagines that every idea they have is inspired and correct.

 

I take offense to that!

[The Nehor]

I take offense to that!

To be fair so do I.

[Coreyb]

It seems he is talking about those who are learned in the Law...

 

 25 Wherefore, he has given a law; and where there is no law given there is no punishment; and where there is no punishment there is no condemnation; and where there is no condemnation the mercies of the Holy One of Israel have claim upon them, because of the atonement; for they are delivered by the power of him.

 26 For the atonement satisfieth the demands of his justice upon all those who have not the law given to them, that they are delivered from that awful monster, death and hell, and the devil, and the lake of fire and brimstone, which is endless torment; and they are restored to that God who gave them breath, which is the Holy One of Israel.

Those who dont have the law given to them are delivered from death and hell through the atonement. I assume the "law given" is in reffrence to the law of Moses as contained on the plates of brass.

 27 But wo unto him that has the law given, yea, that has all the commandments of God, like unto us, and that transgresseth them, and that wasteth the days of his probation, for awful is his state!

The "wo unto" is geared at the his audience by his use of "like unto us", specifically at those in the audience who know they are guilty of transgressions.

 28 O that cunning plan of the evil one! O the vainness, and the frailties, and the foolishness of men! When they are learned they think they are wise, and they hearken not unto the counsel of God, for they set it aside, supposing they know of themselves, wherefore, their wisdom is foolishness and it profiteth them not. And they shall perish.

Oh Satan is so smart! Those learned (in the Law) hearken not to the counsel of God ( via I dunno, personal revelation, the voice of Nephi or Jacob). They suppose they know better of themselves, due to their study. Think about Jesus condemning the doctors of his day saying they use their knowledge and traditions concerning the letters of the law to break the spirit of the law, 

 29 But to be learned is good if they hearken unto the counsels of God.

Dont get me wrong, still study the Law. Just dont think you can know everything about God through the scriptures.

See, He is really condemning all of us here on the board, not the scientists

[JAHS]

Yea I don't think he is just referring to secular learning. He might also be referring to the pride of those who because they think they know so much from their own effort that they don't need to receive teaching from God.

[SmileyMcGee]

It seems he is talking about those who are learned in the Law...

25 Wherefore, he has given a law; and where there is no law given there is no punishment; and where there is no punishment there is no condemnation; and where there is no condemnation the mercies of the Holy One of Israel have claim upon them, because of the atonement; for they are delivered by the power of him.

26 For the atonement satisfieth the demands of his justice upon all those who have not the law given to them, that they are delivered from that awful monster, death and hell, and the devil, and the lake of fire and brimstone, which is endless torment; and they are restored to that God who gave them breath, which is the Holy One of Israel.

Those who dont have the law given to them are delivered from death and hell through the atonement. I assume the "law given" is in reffrence to the law of Moses as contained on the plates of brass.

27 But wo unto him that has the law given, yea, that has all the commandments of God, like unto us, and that transgresseth them, and that wasteth the days of his probation, for awful is his state!

The "wo unto" is geared at the his audience by his use of "like unto us", specifically at those in the audience who know they are guilty of transgressions.

28 O that cunning plan of the evil one! O the vainness, and the frailties, and the foolishness of men! When they are learned they think they are wise, and they hearken not unto the counsel of God, for they set it aside, supposing they know of themselves, wherefore, their wisdom is foolishness and it profiteth them not. And they shall perish.

Oh Satan is so smart! Those learned (in the Law) hearken not to the counsel of God ( via I dunno, personal revelation, the voice of Nephi or Jacob). They suppose they know better of themselves, due to their study. Think about Jesus condemning the doctors of his day saying they use their knowledge and traditions concerning the letters of the law to break the spirit of the law,

29 But to be learned is good if they hearken unto the counsels of God.

Dont get me wrong, still study the Law. Just dont think you can know everything about God through the scriptures.

See, He is really condemning all of us here on the board, not the scientists

I agree, the term "learning" could be referring to law and the interpretation of law, and that would seem to fit with other parts of the BOM. Edited December 2, 2014 by SmileyMcGee

[teddyaware]

Perhaps I can rely on those more learned in ancient near eastern history for guidance.

In 2 be 9 Jacob is preaching and warns that when men/women are "learned they think they are wise." He then counsels that being learned is good if you hearken to God's counsel. I am assuming that "learning" in this passage refers to secular learning.

I find this counsel rather puzzling given the context. According to the timeline in the BOM, this counsel is given some 55 years after Lehi left Jerusalem. What secular learning existed at the time and place that Jacob is speaking? Where and how would these people become learned?

The only other similar warning I find in the scriptures is from Paul, but you would except such a warning from Paul given his background.

 

As is usually the case with question such as this, the answers can often be found within the very books of scripture out of which the questions first arose. You seem to presuppose Lehi's family were a group of uneducated people who neither knew nor had any access to the learning of the world. If this is your presumption, you are mistaken. If you will remember, Lehi was a learned man from the educated and wealthy class of Jerusalem's Jews and, like a good father, passed that education and love of learning onto his sons. 

 

1 I, Nephi, having been born of goodly parents, therefore I was taught somewhat in all the learning of my father; and having seen many afflictions in the course of my days, nevertheless, having been highly favored of the Lord in all my days; yea, having had a great knowledge of the goodness and the mysteries of God, therefore I make a record of my proceedings in my days.

 2 Yea, I make a record in the language of my father, which consists of the learning of the Jews and the language of the Egyptians.

 3 And I know that the record which I make is true; and I make it with mine own hand; and I make it according to my knowledge. (1 Nephi)

 

Lehi's success in the teaching of his sons is plainly evident when one reads the profound and eloquent writings of Nephi and Jacob, and there can be no doubt but that that same tradition of learning was also passed on to successive generations.

 

Also remember that Lehi and Nephi lived in Jerusalem (even Jacob himself was born not far from the Holy Land) and witnessed firsthand how secular learning -- untempered by the enlightening and humbling affects of the word of God -- was the one of the main causational factors in bringing to pass the spiritual apostasy that led to the ripened iniquity that caused the destruction and dispersal of the Jewish nation. So the destructive power of false educational ideas was still very fresh in the minds of Lehi and his family. 

Edited December 2, 2014 by teddyaware

[SmileyMcGee]

As is usually the case with question such as this, the answers can often be found within the very books of scripture out of which the questions first arose. You seem to presuppose Lehi's family were a group of uneducated people who neither knew nor had any access to the learning of the world. If this is your presumption, you are mistaken. If you will remember, Lehi was a learned man from the educated and wealthy class of Jerusalem's Jews and, like a good father, passed that education and love of learning onto his sons.

1 I, Nephi, having been born of goodly parents, therefore I was taught somewhat in all the learning of my father; and having seen many afflictions in the course of my days, nevertheless, having been highly favored of the Lord in all my days; yea, having had a great knowledge of the goodness and the mysteries of God, therefore I make a record of my proceedings in my days.

2 Yea, I make a record in the language of my father, which consists of the learning of the Jews and the language of the Egyptians.

3 And I know that the record which I make is true; and I make it with mine own hand; and I make it according to my knowledge. (1 Nephi)

Lehi's success in the teaching of his sons is plainly evident when one reads the profound and eloquent writings of Nephi and Jacob, and there can be no doubt but that that same tradition of learning was also passed on to successive generations.

Also remember that Lehi and Nephi lived in Jerusalem (even Jacob himself was born not far from the Holy Land) and witnessed firsthand how secular learning -- untempered by the enlightening and humbling affects of the word of God -- was the one of the main causational factors in bringing to pass the spiritual apostasy that led to the ripened iniquity that caused the destruction and dispersal of the Jewish nation. So the destructive power of false educational ideas was still very fresh in the minds of Lehi and his family.

I'm not suggesting that they were uneducated, I'm asking what learning they had access to that would potentially cause them to disregard the commandments and why a group of newly arrived immigrants to America would need such counsel. All you have said is that they were learned because they were learned, without providing insight as to what areas of their learning could potentially cause them to err.

[SmileyMcGee]

I think that's the question. And it's a very interesting question. What kind of "learning" would the Nephites be exposed to the period of 559–545 B.C. that would be drawing them away from their pre-Christian beliefs?

Obviously, we apply this scripture today to people who become "learned" in the sciences and other secular fields to the point that they start to see religion as irrelevant. Certainly, I've seen it acknowledged that LDS students at secular college frequently face challenges to their faith in the things that they may learn.

So what did this scripture mean to a Nephite in 550 B.C.? What kind of "learning" were they doing that set them up to doubt their faith? Or is it more of post-renaissance concept being applied here?

exactly. Thank you for clarifying when I was less than clear. Edited December 2, 2014 by SmileyMcGee

[teddyaware]

I'm not suggesting that they were uneducated, I'm asking what learning they had access to that would potentially cause them to disregard the commandments and why a group of newly arrived immigrants to America would need such counsel. All you have said is that they were learned because they were learned, without providing insight as to what areas of their learning could potentially cause them to err.

 

I thought I made it clear that it was the false educational ideas Lehi and his family were exposed to while they were still living in Jerusalem. Those false ideas followed Lehi's family after they left Jerusalem and 'traveled' along with them in the wilderness; Laman and Lemuel were foremost among those who were negatively influenced by these incorrect notions.

 

19 And now it came to pass that I, Nephi, was exceedingly sorrowful because of the hardness of their hearts; and now when they saw that I began to be sorrowful they were glad in their hearts, insomuch that they did rejoice over me, saying: We knew that ye could not construct a ship, for we knew that ye were lacking in judgment; wherefore, thou canst not accomplish so great a work.

 20 And thou art like unto our father, led away by the foolishimaginations of his heart; yea, he hath led us out of the land of Jerusalem, and we have wandered in the wilderness for these many years; and our women have toiled, being big with child; and they have borne children in the wilderness and suffered all things, save it were death; and it would have been better that they had died before they came out of Jerusalem than to have suffered these afflictions.

 21 Behold, these many years we have suffered in the wilderness, which time we might have enjoyed our possessions and the land of our inheritance; yea, and we might have been happy.

22 And we know that the people who were in the land of Jerusalem were a righteous people; for they kept the statutes and judgments of the Lord, and all his commandments, according to the law of Moses; wherefore, we know that they are a righteous people; and our father hath judged them, and hath led us away because we would hearken unto his words; yea, and our brother is like unto him. And after this manner of language did my brethren murmur and complain against us. (1 Nephi 17)

 

After Lehi's entourage arrived in America, Laman and Lemuel ultimately became apostates as as consequence their unwillingness to abandon their worldly wise ways. And even after the passing of Laman and Lemuel there were others who followed in their pernicious ways -- a worldly wise man named Sherem was one of them.

 

Please read the following passages carefully because your question will be effectively answered in the following account of Jacob:

 

1 And now it came to pass after some years had passed away, there came a man among the people of Nephi, whose name was Sherem.

 2 And it came to pass that he began to preach among the people, and to declare unto them that there should be no Christ. And he preached many things which were flattering unto the people; and this he did that he might overthrow the doctrine of Christ.

 3 And he labored diligently that he might lead away the hearts of the people, insomuch that he did lead away many hearts; and he knowing that I, Jacob, had faith in Christ who should come, he sought much opportunity that he might come unto me.

 4 And he was learned, that he had a perfect knowledge of the language of the people; wherefore, he could use much flattery, and much power of speech, according to the power of the devil. (Jacob 7)

 

There's your answer...

Edited December 2, 2014 by teddyaware

[The Nehor]

I'm not suggesting that they were uneducated, I'm asking what learning they had access to that would potentially cause them to disregard the commandments and why a group of newly arrived immigrants to America would need such counsel. All you have said is that they were learned because they were learned, without providing insight as to what areas of their learning could potentially cause them to err.

 

Any kind of learning can do that. People learned only in the gospel can sin because of it if they (to quote a prophet) "read by the light of their own conceit". Theologians are often terrible people. To be fair some of the rest are terribly good people.